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I do get why it happens, but people are reeeeeaally dismissive of how much Rey's lifestyle on Jakku would have influenced her skills and capabilities. The very first shots of Rey are of her doing the starship equivalent of the Mission Impossible 2 intro. And she wasn't doing it for fun, she needed to be skilled and athletic and proficient in order to survive. The whole thing about Mary Sues (at least the version of Mary Sue that folks are using in this context) is that they are overpowered for no reason. There are absolutely good reasons that Rey can do what she does. She worked with ships in order to eat. She learned to fight because she would've died if she didn't. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 00:21
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The guy's point with the "light side vs The Force" argument is that before the Dark Side was specifically a malignant corruption in the Force that was strengthened by those strong with the Dark Side in the Force doing their thing, suffering in the universe, etc. whereas a "yin/yang" version of the Force implies the Dark Side is just another facet of it, neither good nor bad, and "balance" simply implies they exist in equal measure. There is distinctly a difference between the Force in the first six movies and the duality of yin and yang. But it sounds like the bad guys may be the ones who are most concerned with a "balance" of light and dark, so maybe the battle between Force philosophies in Star Wars will be about how much of a role the Dark Side actually plays in the Force as a whole.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:29
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I just got back and all I can think about is how John Boyega has the biggest babyface I've ever seen. When he relaxes his face there are absolutely no lines on it at all.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:32
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Comrade Fakename posted:the small cadre of prequel apologists out there You mean... most Star Wars fans under the age of about 17?  I kinda agree that this film was a big ol' baindaid and a kiss from JJ promising that shh, it doesn't have to hurt anymore, but I will be very disappointed if they don't move past that into new territory for the next few (and I will view this one much less charitably if it's an indication of things to come rather than a clearing of the deck). But jeez, the sooner you realize that a) the prequels are way, way more competent (if not entertaining) than people give them credit for, b) kids fuckin' love 'em, and everything about them except the kissing and c) if Star Wars is defined entirely by fandom expectations and gen-x nostalgia it would/will be utterly terrible the happier i think you will be with the franchise. HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 00:34
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PiedPiper posted:Luke needed more than three years to learn the feats Rey successfully pulled off in, like, two hours. There was no clear sense of progress, is what I'm saying. As others are noting, at the respective stages in their first films Rey had years of both close combat and flight experience where Luke only had flight experience. And what of Luke's feats are you referring to? Defeating an unwounded, focused, combat hardened, full Jedi Knight in single combat? Rey didn't do this. If you're looking for implausibility, check Rey's quick study of the Jedi mind trick. I find that much sketchier than getting the upper hand in her battle with Kylo Ren.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:36
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BrianWilly posted:The whole thing about Mary Sues (at least the version of Mary Sue that folks are using in this context) is that they are overpowered for no reason. There are absolutely good reasons that Rey can do what she does. She worked with ships in order to eat. She learned to fight because she would've died if she didn't. I think the whole thing boils down to the fact that Rey is clearly the intended audience surrogate. Men tend to freak out when they're represented in a story by a woman.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:36
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Jakku was the oven Rey was baked in. TFA is about her starting to get the Force Frosting to be complete.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:38
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Effectronica posted:Maz uses "light side", as does Rey. Like an idiot I watched through the film again today and made sure to listen out for it, and not once is it ever said as "light side"; it is referred to as "the light" by Moz, and Han says "the light and the dark side of the Force", but never "the light side" or "light side of the Force". Anyone can become one with the light, but the "dark side" (not necessarily people who are bad) is reserved for Force users. Chocolate Teapot fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 00:41
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HookedOnChthonics posted:You mean... most Star Wars fans under the age of about 17? Is this like the opposite of an appeal to authority
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Dec 28, 2015 00:45
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HookedOnChthonics posted:You mean... most Star Wars fans under the age of about 17? Kids loved poo poo like the Glove of Darth Vader and the Jedi Academy books too, soooo Thanks to this thread I can appreciate the depth of story and setting exploration Lucas was doing with those, and the admittedly excellent subversion of the Jedi Order = Good Guys concept, but there is nothing that can make the bulk of those films fun to watch, not when you have the original trilogy to compare to. Chocolate Teapot posted:Like an idiot I watched through the film again today and made sure to listen out for it, and not once is it ever said as "light side"; it is referred to as "the light" by Moz, and Han says "the light and the dark side of the Force", but never "the light side" or "light side of the Force". Anyone can become one with the light, but the "dark side" (not necessarily people who are bad) is reserved for Force users. That probably has more to do with the way 'dark side' sounds cool and sinister while 'light side' is lame if not confusing. Even Lucas seemed to get this, I don't think it's been said in any of his movies. rockopete fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 00:45
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Chocolate Teapot posted:Like an idiot I watched through the film again today and made sure to listen out for it, and not once is it ever said as "light side"; it is referred to as "the light" by Moz, and Han says "the light and the dark side of the Force", but never "the light side" or "light side of the Force". Anyone can become one with the light, but the "dark side" (not necessarily people who are bad) is reserved for Force users. "Becoming one with the light" isn't the same at all as "Balance" or "Harmony".
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Dec 28, 2015 00:49
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rockopete posted:As others are noting, at the respective stages in their first films Rey had years of both close combat and flight experience where Luke only had flight experience. And what of Luke's feats are you referring to? Defeating an unwounded, focused, combat hardened, full Jedi Knight in single combat? Rey didn't do this. There's also force pull. It worked for a dramatic reveal (Rey is the one who gets the lightsaber) but at this point I was already feeling overwhelmed.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:49
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PiedPiper posted:There's also force pull. It worked for a dramatic reveal (Rey is the one who gets the lightsaber) but at this point I was already feeling overwhelmed. Also true, though Luke was able to do this on Hoth before meeting Yoda. You could argue that he had time to practice since Yavin and I could respond with him never getting time to practice on the run and blergy blergy blarg so it's still a fuzzy judgement call. My point being that I do think she seemed a tad overly precocious but I wouldn't use the Ren fight as a good example and I still disagree with Verisimilidude overall.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:57
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Here are some choice quotes to consider: "Do or do not. There is no try." And also: "You must unlearn what you have learned." There are no concrete learning tiers to using the Force. That's a prequel concept, and even then is only suggested by the fact that Jedi have classes and "levels" to their training, and not by the fact that Anakin is winning races against hardened veterans at the age of nine. You are either awakened to the Force or you aren't, and actually the only thing that's stopping you is the ingrained belief that you can't. Rey doesn't really know all that much about how the Force should work and so, ironically, the fact that she doesn't know she shouldn't be able to do these things allows her to do it. She watches Kylo Ren use telekinesis and experiences him reading minds, remembers what vague details Maz told her about herself, and thinks, "Oh, I guess this means I'm able to do what he does?" And because she thinks that, it's ends up being true.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:00
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I ran Rey through a Mary Sue test (this one, from the top of a google search), using some reasonable assumptions for the screenwriters and being as pessimistic as possible, checking every box that might possibly be revealed to be true in the sequels -- e.g. "is any form of royalty or nobility but doesn't know it". Even checking all the boxes for things like "has magical powers" and "picks up complex skills astonishingly quickly", she doesn't even register on the Mary Sue scale. I think some of you have never seen the true horrors of bad fanfiction. If she were a real Mary Sue, as soon as she looked over her oh-so-stylish sunglasses and batted her violet-colored eyes at Han, he'd declare that she was the best pilot he'd ever seen and he wanted to marry her.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:03
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HookedOnChthonics posted:You mean... most Star Wars fans under the age of about 17? I'm confident that this is more clearing the deck particularly because, with the exception of some "anti-PC" idiots and the Mary Sue debate, people by and large like the new characters. They can carry a picture by themselves by this point. I'm not really sure what the point was of having Finn in a coma at the end. Maybe the plan for Ep. 8 is to start with him waking up and I guess time has passed and... I dunno, but it was an odd story beat to have at the end of the movie instead of him just being wounded. And regarding the "Kylo as the Prequels" reading, I'm not sure- because if anything Kylo Ren fits the pattern established by the prequels whereby the "bad guys" aren't cool and badass but are actually just immature, emotionally damaged assholes. If anything Abrams is confirming George Lucas' view of morality, wherein hatred and destruction are masks for our own insecurity. If anything this was best foreshadowed in Return of the Jedi and Boba Fett- this "cool badass Bounty Hunter" guy gets taken out in a few seconds by Han Solo's clumsy mistake, because just looking awesome doesn't mean you are awesome.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:04
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Oh yeah, no disagreement from me that the prequels are unfun to watch, but that's a subjective argument and i try to demarcate those pretty clearly. Pointing out that kids like them wasn't a claim about their quality but about their permanence—basically, kids who didn't inherit a chip on their shoulder from nerd parents don't and likely never will discriminate between pt and ot other than out of Plinkett-fueled teenage contrarianism. I work with kids, and the mainline 12yo star wars nerd of today cares just as much about captain rex and his clones as about han solo. I also think even thinking about force powers as being like individual abilities you master one after the other is kinda dumb and comes entirely from people (nerds) systematizing the intentionally abstract to make video games. And that's fine, games need systems, but kotor is not a primary document on jedi training practices.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:04
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Powered Descent posted:I ran Rey through a Mary Sue test (this one, from the top of a google search), using some reasonable assumptions for the screenwriters and being as pessimistic as possible, checking every box that might possibly be revealed to be true in the sequels -- e.g. "is any form of royalty or nobility but doesn't know it". Seriously like one character is attracted to her and it's a toss-up whether he'll go for her or Oscar Isaac.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:05
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HookedOnChthonics posted:Oh yeah, no disagreement from me that the prequels are unfun to watch, but that's a subjective argument and i try to demarcate those pretty clearly. I liked the prequels besides Clones well enough as a kid. Especially Revenge of the Sith. I slowly stopped liking them a year or so later. Revenge of the Sith just stopped clicking with me. But that is not the point. Most kids dig the prequels, and they should. Lotsa cool poo poo in those movies for kids.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:11
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Was Finn actually in a coma coma or was he just passed out for a while after being severely injured? Because the latter thing, like, happens in real life. People who are badly injured (or have their wisdom teeth out) get put on drug cocktails that just keep them totally zonked out. I don't think anyone says anything more specific on it besides "we have a heartbeat yey  ".There's also the precedent of Luke being unconscious in the underwater underwear tube and being woken up by something being done to the conditions of the tube iirc, he didn't wake up on his own.
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Dec 28, 2015 01:36
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I saw The Phantom Menace when I was 6 and I loving hated it when I saw it. HOWEVER, I have softened on it because it isn't Attack of the Clones
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Dec 28, 2015 01:43
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The kids I'm talking about were 3 when Sith came out. For them there have never not been 6 Star Warses and a cartoon. Think about how you first encountered star wars—if you're an average sw nerd of my generation (mid-20s american), there was a preschool playground awareness of this huge thing that existed, of darth vader and luke skywalker, long before you were old enough to actually sit down and parse an hour and a half (let alone 3) of dialogue and plot movement as anything other than good guy with blue sword vs bad guy with red sword. Then eventually you're old enough to understand all that stuff, and of course it's appropriately good to great, because c'mon—it's star wars. If you saw them all concurrently after the release of III or are literally 11-13 years old than fair enough, but I'm going to go ahead and assume you already had an appreciation of the ot before seeing the pt, which the vast majority of said 11-13 year olds don't. For them, the prequels are as integral a part of the mythology and mystique of star wars as the ot, and imo that has some staying power. Plus, they grew up with it on tv. That orange alien gal is leagues more popular than half the actual film characters—if she were to show up in a new one, kids would go apeshit in a way you wouldn't believe.
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Dec 28, 2015 02:16
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Saw TFA again, liked it a lot better the second time once I could move past my initial reactions (mostly on the Starkiller Base stuff). Thoughts, no particular order: - The climax worked a lot better once I switched to seeing the X-wing fight as a B plot/sideshow rather than a climax in its own right. It doesn't really have the dramatic/emotional weight to carry the end of the film on its own, like its inspiration the Battle of Yavin, but as a way of providing a backdrop for the actions of Han, Finn, and Rey it's not bad. I think the movie would still be better served by having something less Death Star-ish, though. - There's a lot in the first half of the movie about myths and legends and how the characters are driven by them. Luke, Han, the Falcon, the Resistance, Luke's lightsaber, Vader, the war; the power of the legend of each of these is integral to the characters' motivations. They are, in some cases literally, living in the shadow of Star Wars. Then in the back half, the characters stop learning about the OT and live it. It gives some reason behind all the callbacks. - The rathtars sequence, and buildup to it, reminds me of something from the Brian Daley Han Solo novels or the old Marvel comics. It doesn't serve any particular plot point, but I enjoyed it. - JJ can make prettier shots than I was giving him credit for. He really needs to let the film breathe once in a while, though. Takodana is probably the worst offender in this regard; we go from everyone arriving to Finn leaving to Rey having her vision to Starkiller Base firing to the battle without even a moment to pause. And some of these things, the vision in particular, could really use that moment; Finn literally isn't even out the door before Rey has moved onto the next plot point. It's like JJ thinks if the audience slows down for even a second they'll lose interest. - In that same regard, the movie could really use the deleted scene from the Republic Senate, because not-Coruscant blowing up doesn't have nearly the impact it should as is (that is, it basically has none). I'm sure there would have been a few people throwing a hissy fit because of ~*~oh no prequels~*~, but who gives a poo poo. - I heard Obi-Wan in Rey's vision this time. So that was cool. - Finn and Poe's reunion is a total bromantic moment, I love it. - I enjoyed Williams' score a lot more after hearing it separately. Kylo Ren's motif, Poe's motif, and Rey's theme in its various forms were particular standouts. The opening track is probably one of the things that made me feel the most that yes, this is Star Wars. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 02:25
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zen death robot posted:This really was my biggest complaint, JJ needs to learn how to leave some breathing room in his movies. If the movie was about 5-10 minutes longer and let some moments be a bit "heavier", it would have made the film better overall but it's a fairly minor complaint. This is my only complaint too. I would have cut the Rathtars scene (you could have had Rey screw up some other way some other time) and allowed that time to have more character beats. Maybe Han talks his way out of the thing but Finn leaves with one of the gangs and doesn't show up until after Ren is captured/during the Starkiller attack. Idk, I'm not a screenwriter but I do think the separation could have been longer, as a bigger testament to Finn's character growth.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:13
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I can appreciate the Rathars weren't strictly necessary but I still think it was cool that Han was smuggling space monsters.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:14
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Maxwell Lord posted:I can appreciate the Rathars weren't strictly necessary but I still think it was cool that Han was smuggling space monsters. Yeah, to me rathtars are like the podrace. Narratively could probably be cut down quite a bit, but just a fun sequence that I smile through.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:16
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I kind of could have done without Han and Chewie finding them like that altogether. BB-8 was just about to tell them the location of a Resistance base as it was, just have them go there. Swap Maz's place from some sort of cantina to a Resistance base, have Han and Chewie be there, have Kylo Ren track them there because of the beacon in the Millenium Falcon. It gets rid of the unnecessary rathtar scene and makes them running into Han seem a little bit less serendipitous. Also, it gets rid of the whole "Han is back to being a shiftless space bum" aspect. He can still be somewhat estranged from Leia, but he's still working for the Resistance in some fashion.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:21
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Phylodox posted:I kind of could have done without Han and Chewie finding them like that altogether. BB-8 was just about to tell them the location of a Resistance base as it was, just have them go there. Swap Maz's place from some sort of cantina to a Resistance base, have Han and Chewie be there, have Kylo Ren track them there because of the beacon in the Millenium Falcon. It gets rid of the unnecessary rathtar scene and makes them running into Han seem a little bit less serendipitous. Also, it gets rid of the whole "Han is back to being a shiftless space bum" aspect. He can still be somewhat estranged from Leia, but he's still working for the Resistance in some fashion. Why would you want to get rid of that? Han and Leia's marriage dissolving and Han returning to what he used to be good at is a good character moment.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:42
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ImpAtom posted:Why would you want to get rid of that? Han and Leia's marriage dissolving and Han returning to what he used to be good at is a good character moment. You can still have that, without him regressing all the way back to where he was at the beginning of A New Hope.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:45
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Phylodox posted:You can still have that, without him regressing all the way back to where he was at the beginning of A New Hope. He didn't regress all the way to where he was at the back of a New Hope. When he found out what they were doing he actively went out of his way to help and encourage them. He has an entire speech about how he changed his view on The Force. He was still a scoundrel but he wasn't the same kind of scoundrel he was in ANH where he was more worried about himself. It also would be extremely weird for him to be working for the Resistance when the point of him leaving is that he and Leia needed to be separate and deal with their grief and she is the leader of the Resistance.
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Dec 28, 2015 03:51
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Has anything explained the story behind Han and Chewie's much bigger ship -- the one they were hauling the monsters in? Is this the ship they've been using during the years the Falcon was missing? Did they own it? (They seemed to abandon it a little easily.) Were they renting it? Borrowing it from King What's-His-Name that was getting the monsters shipped to him?
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Dec 28, 2015 04:04
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Phylodox posted:Rey isn't flawless? She releases the rathtars. She's stuck in the past. She gets easily captured. She's just a standard protagonist with standard ups and downs. Exactly. What is she doing when she's not star warsing? Literally sitting in the sand staring out at nothing. She's a middle of the road playing it safe character. Not that that's bad, that's just what she is.
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Dec 28, 2015 04:18
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Phylodox posted:It gets rid of the unnecessary rathtar scene and makes them running into Han seem a little bit less serendipitous. Han said he was tracking them using some signal unique to the Falcon. ruddiger posted:Exactly. What is she doing when she's not star warsing? Literally sitting in the sand staring out at nothing. She's a middle of the road playing it safe character. Not that that's bad, that's just what she is. She's doing that because she keeps waiting for someone who is never coming back, she's pretty obsessed with that notion and refuses to let it go. Sometimes she puts on an old rebel helmet and dreams, sometimes she looks at the old lady polishing scrap across from her and realizes that will be her someday, but she never takes the first step to leave the junkyard and become a more complete person until she is forced into it by a TIE raid. turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 04:23
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ImpAtom posted:He didn't regress all the way to where he was at the back of a New Hope. When he found out what they were doing he actively went out of his way to help and encourage them. He has an entire speech about how he changed his view on The Force. He was still a scoundrel but he wasn't the same kind of scoundrel he was in ANH where he was more worried about himself. Exactly. The entire introduction of Han as a smuggler again is a great piece of showing rather than telling. It reinforces that poo poo has really gone downhill for him and Leia since RotJ and it only makes more sense the more we find out about what happened. It gives Ben's betrayal real weight and helps keep Han relatable as a character. Rey's and Finn's breathless "OMG you are THE HAN SOLO" basically stand in for us as the audience, "yeah that was me once, I guess" helps rein us in, and let Harrison Ford shine again as the lovable rogue who never quite got comfortable with fame and celebrity. I have a lot of small quibbles with this film but JJ got Solo exactly right, I loved every second he was on screen. Powered Descent posted:Has anything explained the story behind Han and Chewie's much bigger ship -- the one they were hauling the monsters in? Is this the ship they've been using during the years the Falcon was missing? Did they own it? (They seemed to abandon it a little easily.) Were they renting it? Borrowing it from King What's-His-Name that was getting the monsters shipped to him? I assumed he called in favors from his time as an Alliance officer to get him back on his feet, but renting or borrowing works too. Either way I can easily see him slumped in the captain's chair, wishing he were back on the Falcon. Then suddenly she turns up, oh poo poo here come two sets of creditors, oh gently caress the monsters are out, yeah let's just get out on the Falcon, she's all I've really ever needed anyway. You could also see it as a metaphor for all of the grief and baggage he's been carrying since Ben's betrayal and his split from Leia, and him abandoning it for the Falcon as part of choosing to move forward and address his past rather than running from it.
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Dec 28, 2015 04:34
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The rathtar sequence was real good, with the only two spots for concern being the dodgy monster design and that the Raid entourage didn't murder the entire Gauvian Death Squad with their bare hands. Otherwise, I don't see how you could reintroduce Han Solo in a more satisfying and appropriate way.
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Dec 28, 2015 04:44
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Proposition Joe posted:The rathtar sequence was real good, with the only two spots for concern being the dodgy monster design and that the Raid entourage didn't murder the entire Gauvian Death Squad with their bare hands. Oh don't get me wrong, I really liked the sequence. But I also feel that it was rather extraneous l, and would have liked to see those few minutes devoted to a slower character scene or two.
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Dec 28, 2015 04:46
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Those monsters are also apparently relatives of the sarlacc according to Wookiepedia.
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Dec 28, 2015 04:48
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I didnt like Chewbacca personally assisting Yoda, one of the greatest jedi masters ever, fight in the giant jedi battles of the clone wars, because it undermines Han Solo's disbelief in the force in the OT. His 1st mate and only friend literally fought right next to a super jedi. I must now assume that Han does not actually understand Chewie because then it makes more sense to me Han: Pfft Jedi? the force? aint nothin like a good blaster at your side Chewie: Rarrarahrahrararar hrarr (actually the force is real and i once helped Yoda, a jedi master, escape from the destruction of the Jedi) Han: Yea we do gotta work on those power couplings, buddy
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Dec 28, 2015 05:10
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turtlecrunch posted:Han said he was tracking them using some signal unique to the Falcon. I hope it's the tracking device the Empire planted in ANH and he was just like, "I've torn this ship apart and put it back together a half dozen times, and I still don't know where those nerf herders hid it! So I at least found a use for it." Winifred Madgers fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 05:25
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Jerkface posted:I didnt like Chewbacca personally assisting Yoda, one of the greatest jedi masters ever, fight in the giant jedi battles of the clone wars, because it undermines Han Solo's disbelief in the force in the OT. His 1st mate and only friend literally fought right next to a super jedi. There's a difference between believing in superpowers and believing in destiny.
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