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OctoberCountry posted:drat you have my sympathies having to test that garbage. Wasn't Lucasarts basically in shambles and constantly changing management at that point? Yeah. That's the Darth Icky game right?
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Dec 28, 2015 13:50
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If Rey were a dude no one would be wringing their hands over whether his abilities were justified or not, he would just be "a bad rear end".
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Dec 28, 2015 13:51
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Mazreal posted:If Rey were a dude no one would be wringing their hands over whether his abilities were justified or not, he would just be "a bad rear end". Nah, I don't think so.
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Dec 28, 2015 13:59
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PiedPiper posted:Nah, I don't think so. Have you ever seen a Marvel superhero movie? Or a DC superhero movie?
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Dec 28, 2015 14:10
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Proposition Joe posted:The rathtar sequence was real good, with the only two spots for concern being the dodgy monster design and that the Raid entourage didn't murder the entire Gauvian Death Squad with their bare hands. Otherwise, I don't see how you could reintroduce Han Solo in a more satisfying and appropriate way. My only issue with that part is why did it all have to take place in the jakku system immediately after they left. They should have hyperdrived out of there first chance they got. Then they could cut to the first order scene or something to indicate time had passed, then back to the ship. The way it happened made it seem like everyone was just orbiting jakku waiting for them
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Dec 28, 2015 14:16
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Steve2911 posted:Have you ever seen a Marvel superhero movie? Or a DC superhero movie? Well, not all of them, but sure, I have. I still don't get the point, though. Saying that the only reason some people have a problem with Rey is because she's a girl is pretty dishonest.
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Dec 28, 2015 14:19
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Luigi Thirty posted:Yeah. That's the Darth Icky game right? Jacen Solo (who George Lucas jokingly floated the name of "Darth Icky" for) never showed up in a video game.
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Dec 28, 2015 14:33
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PiedPiper posted:Well, not all of them, but sure, I have. I still don't get the point, though. Saying that the only reason some people have a problem with Rey is because she's a girl is pretty dishonest. Point is that there are plenty of films and stories where men do amazing things with little buildup or explanation and no one gives a gently caress. Tony Stark is the most brilliant scientist on the planet and also an action hero because he's awesome. Commander Shepard singlehandedly saved the galaxy and brought the races of the world together because he's Commander Motherfucking Shepard. Liam Neeson can singlehandedly kill all of the brown people because he's a stone cold badass. Samuel L Jackson is Samuel L Jackson. Rey showed some abilities a bit earlier than Luke Skywalker did, burn the witch! If there is a problem with Rey's characterisation, it's been blown way out of proportion.
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Dec 28, 2015 14:42
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PiedPiper posted:Well, not all of them, but sure, I have. I still don't get the point, though. Saying that the only reason some people have a problem with Rey is because she's a girl is pretty dishonest. I don't think it's dishonest at all to say some people have a problem with Rey only because she's a girl, just like some people have a problem with Finn only because he's black. Some people have other problems
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Dec 28, 2015 14:50
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PiedPiper posted:Well, not all of them, but sure, I have. I still don't get the point, though. Saying that the only reason some people have a problem with Rey is because she's a girl is pretty dishonest. it's almost charmingly naive that you think this 
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Dec 28, 2015 14:52
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I think that Rey has such great and terrible powers this early in the story is an interesting point in itself. She's everything Luke wanted to be back before he truly walked on the light side of the Force and strongly resembles alot of peoples' fan theories on how Anakin 'should' have been done; a charismatic natural ace with a righteous streak (which would have led to his own undoing). Especially with Finn's role as placing him as the more ethically driven, genuinely good person, it'll be interesting to see where they take her in the sequels
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Dec 28, 2015 14:54
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Luigi Thirty posted:Yeah. That's the Darth Icky game right? Yep quote:“The team threw a Hail Mary to George, saying the game would have more credibility if the apprentice had a ‘Darth’ title,” a Force Unleashed team member says. Lucas agreed that this situation made sense for Sith royalty, and offered up two Darth titles for the team to choose from. “He threw out ‘Darth Icky’ and ‘Darth Insanius.’ There was a pregnant pause in the room after that. People waiting for George to say ‘just kidding,’ but it never comes, and he just moved on to another point.” jivjov posted:Jacen Solo (who George Lucas jokingly floated the name of "Darth Icky" for) never showed up in a video game. I'm so sad I remember this, but I'm pretty sure Jacen's sith name was decided by an online poll on starwars.com.
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Dec 28, 2015 14:54
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PiedPiper posted:Well, not all of them, but sure, I have. I still don't get the point, though. Saying that the only reason some people have a problem with Rey is because she's a girl is pretty dishonest. Ya, I mean it is kind of obvious what happened. Disney wanted their "Katniss" as Star Wars hero but there is obviously still the fear the (male dominated) audience would reject her so they overcompensated for it and really, really made sure that everyone likes her. It's why she isn't as whiny as Luke/Anakin, has hardly any backstory or desires (she is only waiting for her parents, that's a really passive character motivation) and is very competent at a lot of things and learns very, very fast. On top of that we are made to feel sorry for her from the beginning. I mean Luke certainly lived on a lovely planet and the OT also made clear he isn't happy but it was more of a "unhappy about average life as farmer boy on some backwater planet" instead of lonely, miserable life with no future at all. Despite that she never complains about it, there is no conflict that arises from her thin backstory, she also never gets in conflict with any of the other characters (instead everyone likes her) and we really don't get to hear her opinions or see her feelings about anything. Don't get me wrong, it does achieve what it is set out to do but I honestly think Rey's whole character isn't motivated by the story and instead more a result of Disney's goals (and fears) and everything else was built around that. It makes me a bit sad because it means Hollywood in the 21st century still thinks that's neccessary, that a female character needs this kind of support for the audience to emphasize with her and that we can't have a more nuanced female character which maybe not everyone would like, you know like Kylo Ren for example. A villain I enjoyed because he is something we don't get to see often, especially in Star Wars and to me it seems that Disney didn't want to take the same chances with their female hero. I'd go as far as saying that if Ren would have been female Disney would have never dared to do the same. First female villain in Star Wars that isn't a total badass and gets beaten by an untrained person? Imagine the outcry. It goes to show that the gender of characters DOES influence their portrayal but in the totally wrong ways despite good intentions and why I feel they would have done more with Rey as character if she would have been another male hero (not that I want this but I'm very sure they'd have done more to set such a character apart from Anakin/Luke, with Rey you get the feeling that being female is enough difference for Disney). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 14:56
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Steve2911 posted:Point is that there are plenty of films and stories where men do amazing things with little buildup or explanation and no one gives a gently caress. You are posting in CineD, where people absolutely DO give a gently caress about that, though. And the collective opinion here is that Tony Stark is a dick who never learns his lesson. Steve2911 posted:Rey showed some abilities a bit earlier than Luke Skywalker did, burn the witch! Yep, this is definitely a prevailing opinion. Not "I didn't like how X did the thing" but "destroy all females". Her being a girl has nothing do with this, chill out.
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Dec 28, 2015 14:56
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Waffles Inc. posted:it's almost charmingly naive that you think this You misunderstood me. This is the idea I argued against: "If Rey were a dude no one would be wringing their hands over whether his abilities were justified or not, he would just be "a bad rear end". Notice the word "no one". This implies that the only problem people have with Rey is her being a girl. I don't doubt that there are people who don't like female protagonists. It's their loss and all. But generalizations are not good arguments.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:00
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PiedPiper posted:You misunderstood me. Nor getting hung up on semantics
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Dec 28, 2015 15:17
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Steve2911 posted:Point is that there are plenty of films and stories where men do amazing things with little buildup or explanation and no one gives a gently caress. Tony Stark is the most brilliant scientist on the planet and also an action hero because he's awesome. Commander Shepard singlehandedly saved the galaxy and brought the races of the world together because he's Commander Motherfucking Shepard. Liam Neeson can singlehandedly kill all of the brown people because he's a stone cold badass. Samuel L Jackson is Samuel L Jackson. Rey showed some abilities a bit earlier than Luke Skywalker did, burn the witch! I'm not arguing in favor of the "Rey is a Mary Sue" interpretation, but if you look at discussion about any nerd fiction, you will find arguments over the validity of a character's wins and abilities in a pretty gender-neutral way. Comic book fans obsessed with "feats", for instance, are typically obsessed regardless of gender. I think it's a really irritating way of thinking about fiction, but it's pretty universal. You'll always find fans who complain about a character's "feats" not making sense or the character surviving through "plot" rather than because they legitimately earned their win or their power. If Rey were a man, most of the people I've seen make complaints to this effect previously would still complain. Also, there's a difference between "This character is cool and badass because they have something in their backstory explaining why they're so smart/strong/skilled" and "This character gained new powers with greater ease than characters whose strength with the Force has already been explained and cemented in the fiction". Which, again, is not to say I think she's a Mary Sue, I'm just saying I don't think the comparison you're making is totally accurate.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:19
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Krowley posted:Nor getting hung up on semantics Star Wars discussions are like 80% semantics. But only a Sith deals in generalizations.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:The movie keeps going on and on about the Light Side, when the Light Side doesn't exist.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:39
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I didn't think anything of the soundtrack at first, but now that I had a couple tracks on repeat, they've really grown on me. Jedi Steps and March of the Rebellion are very signature Star Wars and Rey's theme is almost like a track from a fantasy movie.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:40
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Sonance posted:Ever consider the possibility that Luke has been teaching his padawans the concept of a Light Side? Maybe it doesn't exist in any tangible sense, but Luke may have come up with the concept for purely illustrative/symbolic purposes during his teachings. It may not be a wholly accurate way of describing the Force, but for a youngling (lolz) or some other Force n00b it might be a good starting point on which to build a foundation of understanding and thus the concept would eventually work its way outside Jedi circles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=infZSKB5L9I Listen to what they say, Luke even asks Yoda how he can tell apart the good side from the dark one. In the OT they might not have called it the "light side" but the dark side definitely existed and the good/light side was at least implied. I have honstly no idea why this even comes up as often as it does in this forum, the OT was a simple story about "good vs evil" at its core so it's not like this is some hidden thing.
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Dec 28, 2015 15:59
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OctoberCountry posted:I'm so sad I remember this, but I'm pretty sure Jacen's sith name was decided by an online poll on starwars.com. Yup. Lucas suggested "Darth Insanius" and "Darth Icky". And then they had an open suggestion box, of which they picked 5 best names and ran a poll.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:07
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I tried to pay closer attention to Rey's scenes the second time I saw TFA, and what I realized was that yes, Rey has a way higher base power than Luke and possibly any other jedi in the series, but that she also has way more mental blocks. Luke, on some level, wants to leave home; Rey basically has a panic attack over it. Her story isn't about learning to use a lightsaber, it's about not being terrified of doing so because it means she has to grow up and accept her magical destiny. Rey only seems unchallenged or badly written if you're directly comparing her to characters from other movies, she totally makes sense if you take her & TFA in general on its own terms.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:09
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LinkesAuge posted:Ya, I mean it is kind of obvious what happened. Disney wanted their "Katniss" as Star Wars hero but there is obviously still the fear the (male dominated) audience would reject her so they overcompensated for it and really, really made sure that everyone likes her. It's why she isn't as whiny as Luke/Anakin, has hardly any backstory or desires (she is only waiting for her parents, that's a really passive character motivation) and is very competent at a lot of things and learns very, very fast. I did not get that sense from the movie at all. I don't doubt Disney liked the idea of a female protagonist but she never felt overly supported to me. I think you're projecting your preexisting concerns about Disney onto this. Luke never got into conflicts either in ANH and everyone liked him--Han was neutral at the outset but they never clashed, and Luke was at most impatient with him and incredulous about his ship. Rey actually fights against her 'destiny' in TFA, running away after Maz first tries to get her on board. I do agree that a female Kylo Ren would be fascinating, and I'd love to see that film, but TFA played things safe in general due to the prequel anxiety, the shoes to fill, etc. I'm holding out for Phasma to be an interesting female villain or otherwise complex character, and hopefully we'll see more of that sort of thing in the side movies as well.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:22
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WrathOfBlade posted:I tried to pay closer attention to Rey's scenes the second time I saw TFA, and what I realized was that yes, Rey has a way higher base power than Luke and possibly any other jedi in the series, but that she also has way more mental blocks. Luke, on some level, wants to leave home; Rey basically has a panic attack over it. Her story isn't about learning to use a lightsaber, it's about not being terrified of doing so because it means she has to grow up and accept her magical destiny. Not really, her "mental blocks" are abonded pretty fast and easy. She of course has the "reluctant hero" thing going on in regards to her Jedi heritage but in the end she picks up the light sabre on her own and decides to confront Ren. She also just needs the mention of the force to compose herself and overcome those "mental blocks". It's very different to Luke's journey who struggled at least two movies and the whole training part in ESB was how his doubts held him back, it simply just got a lot more time. People also should stop with the whole "on its own terms" thing because this is impossible. TFA is part of a series of movies and we can't just forget/ignore what happened before and things will of course be compared. The problem is anyways not the comparison, it's what conclusions you derive from them. When it comes to "Rey" the problem is that like some other parts of the movie it could have needed more time to explore (explain) aspects of the characters and story instead of rushing through everything. There was a little bit of that with Maz but that was rather superficial and dealt more with the Jedi/Luke heritage (and the usual destiny spiel) and didn't do much to explore Rey as character (even Rey's flashbacks have the same issue as the movie, they are rushed images compared to Luke's elaborate "vision" he had in ESB in which he fought Vader). So "badly written" is too harsh for my taste but it's true that the script didn't give Rey enough room to grow as character. She is rushed through the story like everyone else and the only minor exception is Ren. I mean his little scene with Vader's mask told you more about him than most of Rey's scenes together did for her. He also gets his temper tantrums, the Stormtrooper reaction to him, the interaction with Snoke/Hux and a few other little things which really flash him out as character while Rey is too busy in the story with finishing one quest after the other.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:25
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LinkesAuge posted:Not really, her "mental blocks" are abonded pretty fast and easy. She of course has the "reluctant hero" thing going on in regards to her Jedi heritage but in the end she picks up the light sabre on her own and decides to confront Ren. She also just needs the mention of the force to compose herself and overcome those "mental blocks". It's very different to Luke's journey who struggled at least two movies and the whole training part in ESB was how his doubts held him back, it simply just got a lot more time. It's not. Your move.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:28
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Effectronica posted:It's not. Your move. TFA is part of a larger story and this is very much on purpose or better said the whole point so why should it be viewed on its own terms? Not even the movie itself justifies it because it isn't even a complete story, a lot less so than ANH for example. The movie ends with a cliffhanger and no story or character arc is even close to being finished. TFA also heavily relies on the past movies for it's stories and characters, going as far as copying most of it so why should it get special treatment in this regard? I mean it doesn't even ask for standing on its own, it very much WANTS to be viewed as part of the OT, the whole movie screams at you "look at me, this is just like the OT".
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Dec 28, 2015 16:37
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LinkesAuge posted:Not really, her "mental blocks" are abonded pretty fast and easy What I mean by accepting Rey/TFA on their own terms isn't "you need to throw out all knowledge and logic from the other movies". I mean she's a new entity in the series - she has her own story and power level that shouldn't be directly measured against Luke's.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:41
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LinkesAuge posted:TFA is part of a larger story and this is very much on purpose or better said the whole point so why should it be viewed on its own terms? Not even the movie itself justifies it because it isn't even a complete story, a lot less so than ANH for example. The movie ends with a cliffhanger and no story or character arc is even close to being finished. TFA also heavily relies on the past movies for it's stories and characters, going as far as copying most of it so why should it get special treatment in this regard? The Terrence Malick movie The Thin Red Line (1998) is part of a larger story, about the Second World War, about the Pacific Theater, and about the battles on Guadalcanal. It is thus canonical with Guadalcanal Diary (1943), another movie about the battles on Guadalcanal. Nevertheless, the two films are ones we would normally treat independently of one another, and they have very different outlooks and styles. We can understand the Star Wars movies as depicting a continuous story, but we can also recognize them as individual movies, each of which has its own visual language (very similar for the three prequels, somewhat distinct for the three original trilogy movies) and each of which operates on its own set of internal rules. So, for example, the lightsaber duels in The Force Awakens (2015) operate on a separate logic from the ones in Return of the Jedi (1983). We can understand this, even though it is a sequel to Return of the Jedi (1983). So we really have to treat the film on its own terms. We've got no choice.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:51
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LinkesAuge posted:TFA is part of a larger story and this is very much on purpose or better said the whole point so why should it be viewed on its own terms? Not even the movie itself justifies it because it isn't even a complete story, a lot less so than ANH for example. The movie ends with a cliffhanger and no story or character arc is even close to being finished. TFA also heavily relies on the past movies for it's stories and characters, going as far as copying most of it so why should it get special treatment in this regard? Also, movies want nothing because they aren't sentient beings. They're works of art.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:54
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WrathOfBlade posted:I tried to pay closer attention to Rey's scenes the second time I saw TFA, and what I realized was that yes, Rey has a way higher base power than Luke and possibly any other jedi in the series, but that she also has way more mental blocks. Luke, on some level, wants to leave home; Rey basically has a panic attack over it. Her story isn't about learning to use a lightsaber, it's about not being terrified of doing so because it means she has to grow up and accept her magical destiny. She refuses the lightsaber because that's Hero's Journey 101. Her character feels weird and incomplete because the Hero is supposed to struggle and reach a low point before he/she is allowed to use their magical powers to save the world, and Rey just kind of shits all over Kylo from the moment she realizes she's a space wizard.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:58
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I really like that "a character succeeds at something" is shorthand for "they are a winner at everything and no longer need any training or help."
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Dec 28, 2015 16:59
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I think it's also important to remember that Rey's arc is far from over. I think it's safe to assume that there's going to be a price to pay for all this power she's found.
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Dec 28, 2015 16:59
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Squinty posted:She refuses the lightsaber because that's Hero's Journey 101. Her character feels weird and incomplete because the Hero is supposed to struggle and reach a low point before he/she is allowed to use their magical powers to save the world What was Luke Skywalker's low point before he blew up the death star with his magic powers Because Luke Skywalker literally saved the world with his magic powers. Literally. The world was not blown up because of Luke's magic powers. What, precisely, is Luke Skywalker's major struggle? What is his low point? Because if you argue either the death of his aunt and uncle or of Obi-Wan then there are similar mirrors to both in TFA. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 17:01
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Sonance posted:Ever consider the possibility that Luke has been teaching his padawans the concept of a Light Side? Maybe it doesn't exist in any tangible sense, but Luke may have come up with the concept for purely illustrative/symbolic purposes during his teachings. It may not be a wholly accurate way of describing the Force, but for a youngling (lolz) or some other Force n00b it might be a good starting point on which to build a foundation of understanding and thus the concept would eventually work its way outside Jedi circles. I don't think it would be a good idea. Getting into a frame of mind of Good vs Evil leads to very different places than Balance with the Universe. It is a very deliberate choice for George never to use the term "Light Side" anywhere and instead use "Balance". Watch that Mythology of Star Wars video I posted earlier, it's pretty great.
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Dec 28, 2015 17:08
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LinkesAuge posted:Not really, her "mental blocks" are abonded pretty fast and easy. She of course has the "reluctant hero" thing going on in regards to her Jedi heritage but in the end she picks up the light sabre on her own and decides to confront Ren. She also just needs the mention of the force to compose herself and overcome those "mental blocks". It's very different to Luke's journey who struggled at least two movies and the whole training part in ESB was how his doubts held him back, it simply just got a lot more time. In cinematic terms, "by the end of the movie" is not "fast and easy". By the end of ANH, Luke also only needs a reminder of the Force. He composes himself, overcomes his own limitations, and makes an incredible shot to save the day -- a shot that a professional fighter pilot just attempted and failed. He's had a total of maybe a minute and a half of ad hoc Force instruction. He never learned the specific power of Force™ Starfighter Combat Piloting™from Obi-Wan. He just got the notion that "hey, I can use the Force, if I let go and trust it"... and he started doing so. Just like Rey. His character arc continued in the next movies. So will Rey's. Powered Descent fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 17:08
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ImpAtom posted:What was Luke Skywalker's low point before he blew up the death star with his magic powers Luke gets thrown in the trash and has to be rescued, and yeah, he watches his uncle die and he's powerless to stop it. I get that Han is supposed to be Rey's Obi-Wan, but he's just a cool dude she just met who offered her a job. That moment is completely focused on Han and Kylo's relationship, where Obi-Wan's death was all about Luke.
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Dec 28, 2015 17:14
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Squinty posted:She refuses the lightsaber because that's Hero's Journey 101. Her character feels weird and incomplete because the Hero is supposed to struggle and reach a low point before he/she is allowed to use their magical powers to save the world, and Rey just kind of shits all over Kylo from the moment she realizes she's a space wizard. What's great about the lightsaber fight in TFA is that it does what the Luke/Vader fights did really well, which is telling parts of the story purely through action. You can say it's unrealistic that Finn and Rey can hold their own against Ren in a duel, but IIRC if you really watch the action in that fight they are getting the poo poo kicked out of them every step of the way by a guy who is bleeding out. Rey keeps lunging desperately at Ren and getting rebuffed, he keeps pushing her back, eventually I'm pretty sure she is literally pushed to the edge of a cliff, and that's when she has her revelatory moment and turn things around.
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Dec 28, 2015 17:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:I don't think it would be a good idea. Getting into a frame of mind of Good vs Evil leads to very different places than Balance with the Universe. Evil absolutely exists within Buddhism. It's not exogenous in origin, but the Force is generated by living beings and is thus endogenous as well.
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Dec 28, 2015 17:16
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Do note that Rey is, at the end of the movie still Refusing the Call. She didn't want to take up the lightsaber from Maz. She only picks it up to avenge Han and Finn and protect herself in the moment. She tosses it aside she she reaches Finn's wounded body, and when she picks it back up after that, it goes straight in her satchel, not on her belt. And then when she meets Luke, she immediately tries to hand it over.
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Dec 28, 2015 17:21
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