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I gained some weight a few years ago and was 5'7" and 175 pounds before I lost the weight and absolutely no one would think that I looked threatening in the least (hey I'm white). That's really not that big especially depending on where the weight is and it's totally reasonable to point out this kid is 12 and the people arguing that his size was the reason he was shot are full of poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:08
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Cole posted:Saying that someone who is 5'7" and 195 pounds looks older than 12 years old is dog whistle racism? It. Doesn't. Matter. Its a red herring. The fact that prosecution even brought it up as a way to defend should be enough for you stop defending it.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:09
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BloodFeastIslandMan posted:It's unreal that people can claim that with a straight face. In Georgia, police have full access to grand jury proceedings, can have a lawyer present and are allowed to make an unrebutted statement to the grand jury. But they're just like us
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Dec 28, 2015 21:09
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CommieGIR posted:It. Doesn't. Matter. Its a red herring. The fact that prosecution even brought it up as a way to defend should be enough for you stop defending it. It was brought up way before I "defended" it. I agree it doesn't matter if Tamir Rice looked six or 60. The shoot was unjustified. But harping on it as bullshit (which was done in this thread before I ever commented on it) actually bolsters the cop's defense because it is the only believable thing he said in his entire statement.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:13
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Radish posted:Tamir's alleged hugeness is a stupid red herring. (btw this is him in his Hulked out glory)  gang signs!!
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Dec 28, 2015 21:13
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Tamir's height is median for a 15 year old boy, and 20th percentile for an 18 year old. He looked like a child.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:14
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Raerlynn posted:I get what you're saying, but the point here is that even if the kid turned green and cracked the earth with fists the size of garbage cans, is funny how this detail comes out NOW, when we've had literally a year to review that footage. I thought the guy who shot him wasn't driving?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:14
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Radish posted:Tamir's alleged hugeness is a stupid red herring. (btw this is him in his Hulked out glory) He must have big bones if he's 195 pounds there.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:14
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fosborb posted:Tamir's height is median for a 15 year old boy, and 20th percentile for an 18 year old.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:14
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Cole posted:It was brought up way before I "defended" it. I agree it doesn't matter if Tamir Rice looked six or 60. The shoot was unjustified. But harping on it as bullshit (which was done in this thread before I ever commented on it) actually bolsters the cop's defense because it is the only believable thing he said in his entire statement. the fact that he was 12 is a moral outrage, and is just one of many morally outrageous things about this case. that you can't understand this is telling.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:14
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By unrebutted I think the poster means by the DA whose loving job it is to indict. As for "look how big he was" I'm not going to get into an argument about height/weight averages for teens because it's completely irrelevant to the danger level of a pellet gun.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:15
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How could he possibly weigh that much at 5'7" and not look comically overweight?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:16
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"Um sorry but your child's puffy coat put about 20 pounds on him visually which put him out of the percentile of "cute kid" and into "scary adult" so we had to kill him." The kid looks like a kid and if the officers couldn't tell then because his silhouette was large or whatever the gently caress they thought maybe they should have looked a little harder before killing him so casually. It's a garbage argument, it's irrelevant, and I feel like I'm being tricked even discussing it at all and giving it legitimacy.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:16
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Zas posted:the fact that he was 12 is a moral outrage, and is just one of many morally outrageous things about this case. that you can't understand this is telling. i can understand it. what YOU can't understand is that he could possibly look older based on his height and weight, which is the one of the only factual things the cop said in his statement, and trying to refute it isn't going to help discredit the person who pulled the trigger. I don't think it's wrong of me to want people to focus on things that are actually wrong in this case. Saying he looked older is not wrong. Everything else is. So it isn't wrong to want people to focus on the "everything else."
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Dec 28, 2015 21:17
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twodot posted:Can you cite this? I don't understand how an unrebutted statement could even work. Like they can walk up to the grand jury say "2+2=5" and the grand jury isn't allowed to ask later people what is 2+2? They make a statement and that's that. No cross-examination or anything like that. Not really too confusing to me. http://investigations.blog.ajc.com/2015/10/16/police-special-privileges-in-shooting-cases-face-challenge/ quote:Georgia is the only state that allows an officer to be in the grand jury room the entire proceeding, hear all the evidence against them and close out the proceeding with a statement that can’t be questioned by prosecutors or grand jurors
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Dec 28, 2015 21:19
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Cole posted:Saying he looked older is not wrong. you sure about that?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:19
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Cole posted:i can understand it. If his age is not relevant to justifying the shooting, what is there to understand about the cops/DA claiming he looked older? It's not wrong because of the facts of the argument (which are completely irrelevant), it's wrong because it's not a loving excuse to shoot someone in the first place.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:19
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Cole posted:i can understand it. Cole would like to legitimize the Prosecution's claim that Tamir looked older than 12, therefore the shooting was justified and somehow this fact was important to bring up during a Grand Jury as proof that they needed to kill him. Please stop Cole. You're embarrassing yourself. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 28, 2015 21:19
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:If his age is not relevant to justifying the shooting, what is there to understand about the cops/DA claiming he looked older? It's not wrong because of the facts of the argument (which are completely irrelevant), it's wrong because it's not a loving excuse to shoot someone in the first place. I don't know. Why not ask the people who were talking a lot about it before I ever got here?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:20
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CommieGIR posted:Tamir looked older than 12, therefore the shooting was justified If you can find where I said this I will donate $100 to the charity of your choice.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:20
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Cole posted:I don't know. Why not ask the people who were talking a lot about it before I ever got here? And you're engaging them and defending the cops/DA because...?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:21
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I didn't even connect the dots that Georgia is an open carry state. That additional fact makes this entire thing even more disgusting. I really wonder how many extrajudicial killings this country needs before something actually changes. I'm guessing the answer is "depressingly high".
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Dec 28, 2015 21:21
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Cole posted:I don't know. Why not ask the people who were talking a lot about it before I ever got here? Like the Grand Jury? They presented him looking older as evidence that the shooting was justified, yet here you are trying to say that somehow his age enters into their decision to drive up to a 12 year old with a pellet gun and shoot him through the passenger side window of their vehicle. It was important enough that his appearance relative to his age was brought up in the officer's defense at the Grand Jury. So stop. Pathos posted:I didn't even connect the dots that Georgia is an open carry state. That additional fact makes this entire thing even more disgusting. I really wonder how many extrajudicial killings this country needs before something actually changes. I'm guessing the answer is "depressingly high". This was in Cleveland. Which is still in an Open Carry state.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:21
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:And you're engaging them and defending the cops/DA because...? Because harping on the one justifiable part of the cop's statement doesn't help anything, and I would rather people help the cause rather than hurt the cause.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:22
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He looks like maybe 15 at the oldest. What the cop thought at the time is unfalsifiable, but by that standard we'd never convict anyone of any crime.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:22
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Pathos posted:I didn't even connect the dots that Georgia is an open carry state. That additional fact makes this entire thing even more disgusting. I really wonder how many extrajudicial killings this country needs before something actually changes. I'm guessing the answer is "depressingly high". The people electing these guys apparently support it so... Lyesh posted:He looks like maybe 15 at the oldest. What the cop thought at the time is unfalsifiable, but by that standard we'd never convict anyone of any crime. If the standard for cops was used for every other citizen we'd have no need for jails. I'm told these are the same for everyone but somehow people end up in prison regardless.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:22
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Cole posted:Because harping on the one justifiable part of the cop's statement doesn't help anything, and I would rather people help the cause rather than hurt the cause. But it's not a justifiable part of the statement, since it is not relevant to the shooting regardless of accuracy.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:23
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Cole posted:Because harping on the one justifiable part of the cop's statement doesn't help anything, and I would rather people help the cause rather than hurt the cause. They used his appearance as justification to shoot on sight. And you don't see why we're upset about that.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:23
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CommieGIR posted:Like the Grand Jury? They presented him looking older as evidence that the shooting was justified, yet here you are trying to say that somehow his age enters into their decision to drive up to a 12 year old with a pellet gun and shoot him through the passenger side window of their vehicle. Actually, I just said that it's possible someone who is 5'7" and 195 pounds could look older than 12, which a lot of people seem to disagree with. And I said that because, as I've stated multiple times, it is silly to give any focus to the one part of the officer's statement that can be considered justifiable, which some people have been doing, rather than all of the other stupid poo poo he did.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:23
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Will someone please explain to me how weight works I seriously cannot understand how someone who looks how Tamir does in the photos could weigh 195 at 5'7". E: like, scientifically. E: how does he weigh 40 pounds more than me at 4 inches shorter and not looked muscled or fat??
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Dec 28, 2015 21:24
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5'7" is the average height of 15 year old boys in America. So really, if you think the "looked older" part justifies it, you're basically saying that killing 15 year olds is ok.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:24
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Cole posted:And I said that because, as I've stated multiple times, it is silly to give any focus to the one part of the officer's statement that can be considered justifiable, which some people have been doing, rather than all of the other stupid poo poo he did. Again, its not justifiable. Because their argument, and this is key and what you've been glossing over, is that his appearance as to his age allowed them, in their words, to engage him with gunfire out of fear of their own safety. From the passenger seat of the cruiser. That they pulled up next to him from less than 5 feet away. If he looked so loving old and scary, why the gently caress did they pull up to him like a McDonalds drive through?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:25
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CommieGIR posted:They used his appearance as justification to shoot on sight. And you don't see why we're upset about that. CommieGIR posted:Again, its not justifiable. Because their argument, and this is key and what you've been glossing over, is that his appearance as to his age allowed them, in their words, to engage him with gunfire out of fear of their own safety. See, this is your problem. You are connecting dots that aren't there. His size isn't justification for the shoot, but thinking he looks older than 12 based on his size is justifiable. If I saw Tamir Rice from a distance at the mall or at the grocery store and thought he was older than 12, that would be a justifiable thought. Now, the cop didn't see him from a distance. He pulled up to him and went Jet Li action movie. That's something to focus on.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:25
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he could be 30 and 300 lbs and not change the fact that in an open carry state a cop killed someone from a car before it even fully stopped accelerating
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Dec 28, 2015 21:26
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Cole posted:His size isn't justification for the shoot, but thinking he looks older than 12 based on his size is justifiable. If I saw Tamir Rice from a distance at the mall or at the grocery store and thought he was older than 12, that would be a justifiable thought. joeburz posted:he could be 30 and 300 lbs and not change the fact that in an open carry state a cop killed someone from a car before it even fully stopped accelerating He could've been a loving 30 year old NBA star and this would still be wrong. Age does NOT ENTER INTO the justification to shoot to kill. Ever. At all.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:27
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The Kingfish posted:Will someone please explain to me how weight works I seriously cannot understand how someone who looks how Tamir does in the photos could weigh 195 at 5'7". I don't know the dating of the photos of him. A person who was under 6' tall, and going on 200 would look obese, especially an under-15 year old. Even then, you don't 'look older' just because a kid is heavier. Whatever mistakes the officer made and should be criticized for apparently wasn't enough to convince the jury, but the argument the 12 year old resembled a hulking adult, is the one they used, overwhelmingly in their choice not to indict.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:27
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CommieGIR posted:He could've been a loving 30 year old NBA star and this would still be wrong. I never said it did, so thanks for the irrelevant comment?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:28
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Cole, yes someone who is 5'7" and 195lb could look older but that kid sure does not.The Kingfish posted:Will someone please explain to me how weight works I seriously cannot understand how someone who looks how Tamir does in the photos could weigh 195 at 5'7". Today they're saying he weighed 175 which seems more reasonable if that picture isn't old.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:29
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I'm starting to feel "is saying that a 5'7" twelve year old is big enough to be shot as an adult a fair complaint?" is this thread's "lets argue flashing your brights is against the law so it's your own fault when the police pull you out of your car and shoot you for five pages."
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Dec 28, 2015 21:29
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Cole posted:I never said it did, so thanks for the irrelevant comment? No, you're just here saying that their statement about his age was justified, while conveniently forgetting that they used this justification in a Grand Jury to legitimize shooting him. But hey, keep on arguing about it.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:29
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