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Exclamation Marx posted:He wasn't carrying a gun
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Dec 29, 2015 06:09
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People are mad because fat gross white people have been harping about how they should be allowed to carry guns out in the open everywhere for years, yet those same people blame the death of a literal child with a toy on the kid because if he didn't want to be shot he shouldn't have had a (fake) gun. Fat white idiots don't get shot for being equally completely irresponsible with their guns very often.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:15
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Stereotype posted:People are mad because fat gross white people have been harping about how they should be allowed to carry guns out in the open everywhere for years, yet those same people blame the death of a literal child with a toy on the kid because if he didn't want to be shot he shouldn't have had a (fake) gun.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:25
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Elendil004 posted:An airsoft gun with the tip removed may as well be a gun and I believe in some states is considered one for crimes. When used to commit a crime, yes. That's irrelevant to this case though, because in Ohio it's not a crime to carry an airsoft gun. It's not even illegal to remove the orange tip — they aren't mandatory for pellet guns. Waco Panty Raid posted:Then why bring up open carry in the first place? I didn't, it seems to be a distraction to me. But as Stereotype said it feels wrong for a black child to be killed by police in a drive-by for having a toy gun, when white adults are allowed to open carry real ones.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:32
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Waco Panty Raid posted:If "fat gross white idiot people" pulled the same poo poo Tamir did you wouldn't hear me crying about their right to open carry. Which was my point from the beginning, what Tamir Rice did has little if anything to do with open carry being legal in Ohio. They did. Bundy ring a bell?
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Dec 29, 2015 06:32
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Waco Panty Raid posted:If "fat gross white idiot people" pulled the same poo poo Tamir did you wouldn't hear me crying about their right to open carry. Which was my point from the beginning, what Tamir Rice did has little if anything to do with open carry being legal in Ohio. What poo poo? Fat gross idiots mishandle guns all the time and normally police don't roll up and start shooting at them immediately. On youtube there is a whole network of people who seem to enjoy recording people being shocked while they walk around with their guns on display. The defense of the police that "he had a gun" is super weird because you're allowed to have guns! Honestly this is not a very complicated issue and I'm sort of disappointed that both sides are just so grossly misrepresenting it in order to change minds. The cops weren't murderous bloodthirsty racists, but they also weren't upstanding perfect examples of how the job of "police officer" should be performed. The kid wasn't a wide eyed angelic babe straight from a puffy white manger, but he also wasn't a marauding street thug attempting to terrify innocents. In the end some cops did a poo poo job handling a kid doing something dumb, and now the kid is dead. Doing your job badly and someone getting killed as a result sort of seems like a perfect example of someone who shouldn't be doing that job anymore. I can see where it is maybe not murder, but if an EMT rushed to a traffic accident and violently pulled someone injured in a car accident out by their neck, they probably wouldn't be an EMT anymore.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:39
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Why do you keep mentioning "motioning to his waistband" like it means anything when they rolled up and shot him too fast to even react to that. They themselves thought it was so indefensibly fast they lied on their report to hide that fact.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:39
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Stereotype posted:In the end some cops did a poo poo job handling a kid doing something dumb, and now the kid is dead. Doing your job badly and someone getting killed as a result sort of seems like a perfect example of someone who shouldn't be doing that job anymore. I can see where it is maybe not murder, but if an EMT rushed to a traffic accident and violently pulled someone injured in a car accident out by their neck, they probably wouldn't be an EMT anymore. Eeesh. No. Those officers actively executed a kid playing with a toy gun. The least that should happen is that they are stripped of their badge and put in a national registry so that they couldn't harm any more children.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:52
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osirisisdead posted:Eeesh. No. Those officers actively executed a kid playing with a toy gun. The least that should happen is that they are stripped of their badge and put in a national registry so that they couldn't harm any more children. Yeah you're right, they were probably super stoked when they heard that there was a young black pre-teen in the park with a fake gun because then they could satisfy their satanic lust for child blood, they'd probably been planning on shooting someone all week. How silly of me to think they recklessly approached a situation and then cowardly panicked.
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Dec 29, 2015 07:34
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Stereotype posted:How silly of me to think they recklessly approached a situation and then cowardly panicked. and then killed a kid.
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Dec 29, 2015 08:30
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The Kingfish posted:and then killed a kid.
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Dec 29, 2015 08:49
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Elendil004 posted:
I disagree that any of these shots show him pointing the gun at someone. He has it pointed forward, but is on the top of the sidewalk when the other supposed person (big gray oval) is in the middle of the sidewalk. His gun is not in alignment with a person or even the blob. I am also not convinced that the gray circle is a person, considering the police are the ones who edited and released it. Feel free to correct me if you can find UNEDITED footage of Tamir pointing at a human or blurred human, instead of a blacked out oval. Also it was a replica airsoft gun. Replica airsoft guns do not have an orange tip. People keep accusing Tamir of removing the orange tip but that is nonsense, it didn't come with an orange tip. Again only the police involved originally reported that the orange tip had been 'removed', which was false bullshit like usual.
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Dec 29, 2015 08:51
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Stereotype posted:Why are court fees legal when someone ends up being innocent? Like, if I wanted to fight a $100 ticket and win, I can still be charged a $100 court fee for challenging it. How is it constitutional, or even morally right, for me to be forced to pay a penalty without absolutely no oversight? Because raising taxes is Verboten
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Dec 29, 2015 08:58
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Ravenfood posted:And then lied about it in their report.
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Dec 29, 2015 09:18
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Stereotype posted:Yeah you're right, they were probably super stoked when they heard that there was a young black pre-teen in the park with a fake gun because then they could satisfy their satanic lust for child blood, they'd probably been planning on shooting someone all week. How silly of me to think they recklessly approached a situation and then cowardly panicked.  If there wasn't yet another dead black kid that actually didn't have an actual goddamn firearm in these actual United States, your reactionary hyperbole might almost be amusing. At this point it's just loving tiresome. Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 09:42
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Exclamation Marx posted:I didn't, it seems to be a distraction to me. But as Stereotype said it feels wrong for a black child to be killed by police in a drive-by for having a toy gun, when white adults are allowed to open carry real ones. The problem wasn't that Tamir simply had something that appeared to be a gun. What he was doing with the airsoft gun that instigated the 911 call and how he reacted when the police drove up (neither of which are OK under open carry) is part of the problem. CommieGIR posted:They did. Bundy ring a bell? I also wouldn't claim those that actually pointed guns at people were covered by open carry. Stereotype posted:What poo poo? Fat gross idiots mishandle guns all the time and normally police don't roll up and start shooting at them immediately. On youtube there is a whole network of people who seem to enjoy recording people being shocked while they walk around with their guns on display. The defense of the police that "he had a gun" is super weird because you're allowed to have guns! I have no problem if the police were disciplined up to being dismissed. Garmback's assumption that he could pull up close to Tamir because he expected him to run seems particularly bad in hindsight. But that doesn't have much to do with the open carry discussion. Meta Ridley posted:I disagree that any of these shots show him pointing the gun at someone. He has it pointed forward, but is on the top of the sidewalk when the other supposed person (big gray oval) is in the middle of the sidewalk. His gun is not in alignment with a person or even the blob. I am also not convinced that the gray circle is a person, considering the police are the ones who edited and released it. Feel free to correct me if you can find UNEDITED footage of Tamir pointing at a human or blurred human, instead of a blacked out oval. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rices_friend_says_he_rem.html Although if you think the police blurred out nothing to create the impression that someone was near Tamir as Tamir was pointing what appeared to be a gun in the same direction, you probably think the police forced Tamir's friend to lie as well.
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Dec 29, 2015 12:44
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yeah i think the actual literal 12 year old did things that brought about his death in a very reasonable shoot. makes you think. about life, and all that.
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Dec 29, 2015 12:49
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Well if you have to reduce what Tamir Rice was doing to "having a toy gun" to make the comparison stick I'm not really too concerned about your feels. No, it isn't part of the problem. The entire responsibility lies with the police. Tamir Rice was 12. Twelve. You're assigning him the responsibility of understanding his actions at an adult level. A 12-year-old shouldn't be expected to understand that police will shoot him for holding a toy gun.
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Dec 29, 2015 12:56
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Elendil004 posted:
Red herring: the cops didn't see this before they shot
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Dec 29, 2015 13:16
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Waco Panty Raid posted:The problem wasn't that Tamir simply had something that appeared to be a gun. What he was doing with the airsoft gun that instigated the 911 call and how he reacted when the police drove up (neither of which are OK under open carry) is part of the problem. It being a pellet gun rather than a real gun has everything to do with what he was doing and how he reacted.
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Dec 29, 2015 13:17
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Waco Panty Raid posted:
Yeah, you know... in that time of less than 2 seconds. Good thing the cop had superhuman reaction time.
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Dec 29, 2015 13:41
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lfield posted:Tamir Rice was 12. Twelve. You're assigning him the responsibility of understanding his actions at an adult level. A 12-year-old shouldn't be expected to understand that police will shoot him for holding a toy gun. Even if the cops weren't lying about giving him orders to drop the gun, what is the first response a child accused of doing something wrong? Prove they weren't doing anything wrong. If an adult screams at a child to drop a gun their instinctive reaction is "But look it's not a gun". Irrelevant for Tamir since they didn't even give him time to do that much. And cop who cries at gun range had multiple supervisors say he can't handle stress and didn't think he could be trained to yet again he's given a weapon and sent into a potentially stressful encounter. Nevermind even an adult would need more than 1-2 seconds to process going from standing around in a park and a cop car nearly driving you over and a cop aiming a gun and screaming at you. The time they gave him to react his brain had enough time to go "What the hell is going..." before he was shot. The lying on a police report has been asked (mostly by me) dozens of times and always gets ignored. Doing so is perjury which is a felony and I've had a cop threaten me 5 times that if I'm lying on this report I'll be prosecuted and jailed for it yet cops do it over and over, while I'm sure it's happened cops getting even a stern talking to much less being held to the same legal standard as a citizen lying on even that same police report is a pipe dream. Toasticle fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 13:43
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lfield posted:No, it isn't part of the problem. The entire responsibility lies with the police. That being said, a 12 year old should know not to behave like that. Hell, Tamir's friend said he warned Tamir to be careful with the airsoft gun so clearly his peers could appreciate the danger. Are you certain Tamir didn't appreciate it or somehow wasn't able to? Exclamation Marx posted:It being a pellet gun rather than a real gun has everything to do with what he was doing and how he reacted.
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Dec 29, 2015 13:43
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Toasticle posted:The lying on a police report has been asked (mostly by me) dozens of times and always gets ignored. Doing so is perjury which is a felony and I've had a cop threaten me 5 times that if I'm lying on this report I'll be prosecuted and jailed for it yet cops do it over and over, while I'm sure it's happened cops getting even a stern talking to much less being held to the same legal standard as a citizen lying on even that same police report is a pipe dream. I THINK the argument regarding this was that since police are required to give a report, if you punish them for lying when it would incriminate themselves you are infringing on their 5th Amendment rights since they are put in the position of saying they did a crime or making a false report. I don't want to argue against what might not be the real argument too much but in that case I think the better fix would be to allow cops to refuse to give a statements in such cases (basically "no comment") rather than allow them to lie about a crime and face no penalties. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 13:52
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Waco Panty Raid posted:That being said, a 12 year old should know not to behave like that. Hell, Tamir's friend said he warned Tamir to be careful with the airsoft gun so clearly his peers could appreciate the danger. Are you certain Tamir didn't appreciate it or somehow wasn't able to? So now we've reached "a child should know how to react". Adults consistently react in ways that frighten cops and here you are saying a child should know how to behave when he rightfully knows he is doing nothing that should result in getting ventilated by a pair of cops with records that should have them on desk duties. Whether he looked 15 or 25 he was 12 and we don't expect 12 year olds to know what to do when confronted by trigger happy cops. quote:Really, you know what he was thinking? Nope, but I'm drat sure "A pair of over-reactive cops is going to murder me for having a toy in my waistband" wasn't. Radish posted:I THINK the argument regarding this was that since police are required to give a report, if you punish them for lying when it would incriminate themselves you are infringing on their 5th Amendment rights since they are put in the position of saying they did a crime or making a false report. I don't want to argue against what might not be the real argument too much but in that case I think the better fix would be to allow cops to refuse to give a statements in such cases (basically "no comment") rather than allow them to lie about a crime and face no penalties. I think it's been said they can do exactly that. They are not required to incriminate themselves so do not have to do so on a report. But taking the 5th is refusing to answer, lying to not incriminate yourself is still perjury.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:10
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Toasticle posted:
Yeah like I said I may be misconstruing the argument. It doesn't make sense to me that you can tie falsifying a police report into a constitutional right at all so maybe I'm missing something poignant.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:14
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Nah, it's pretty much been that holding police to the same laws as citizens is saying you think cops don't deserve the same protections as a burger flipper.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:22
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Toasticle posted:Nah, it's pretty much been that holding police to the same laws as citizens is saying you think cops don't deserve the same protections as a burger flipper. That's a mischaracterization of the argument and you know it. The argument is that if rights are different, it is more moral to bolster the rights of the less-privileged than to remove the rights of the police. I don't think anyone has claimed that non-police have more rights than do cops. Now, it may be accurate to state that this is a deflection or stalling tactic to avoid admitting support for the current system (only they would know, and they sure wouldn't say anything). But the claims made are not at all what you just wrote.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:29
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Grundulum posted:That's a mischaracterization of the argument and you know it. The argument is that if rights are different, it is more moral to bolster the rights of the less-privileged than to remove the rights of the police. I don't think anyone has claimed that non-police have more rights than do cops. It's called a concern troll and you're giving it far more merit than it warrants. In reality it warrants none because there's clear evidence that the current system does very little to limit police ability to do what they want, when they want, without any repercussions. Even with video evidence a DA who works with police on the regular can in essence avoid even bringing charges up which is absurd.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:34
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Waco Panty Raid posted:That being said, a 12 year old should know not to behave like that. This is an absolutely disgusting argument and is the same as blaming him for his own death. Anyone feeling the urge to make excuses for a cop who shot a child with no warning should be ashamed.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:42
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lol WPR you're a poo poo excuse for a human being and your attempts to concern troll this thread about 12 year olds acting out of order when the result of that is some coward piece of poo poo driving up and shooting him while falling out of his vehicle trying to be john mcclane is shameful and disgusting, please stop posting
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Dec 29, 2015 14:57
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Toasticle posted:So now we've reached "a child should know how to react". Adults consistently react in ways that frighten cops and here you are saying a child should know how to behave when he rightfully knows he is doing nothing that should result in getting ventilated by a pair of cops with records that should have them on desk duties. Whether he looked 15 or 25 he was 12 and we don't expect 12 year olds to know what to do when confronted by trigger happy cops. Would an adult "rightfully know he is doing nothing wrong" if doing what Tamir did, specifically pointing what appears to be a gun at people, waving what appears to be a gun around a public park, then making quick motions to his waistband towards what appears to be a gun? Like I mentioned Tamir's friend seemed to be able to recognize the risk of playing with the airsoft gun, so why not Tamir or our hypothetical adult? That someone ignores risk doesn't mean they must be unaware if it. Whether you think Tamir is morally culpable or whatever doesn't change what he did to create the situation the police were faced with. That Tamir bears some responsibility doesn't mean he bears all responsibility but actively ignoring what he did or handwaving it away because of his age just leaves us with a distorted version of events. lfield posted:This is an absolutely disgusting argument and is the same as blaming him for his own death.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:02
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Do those adults know better or should have known better? It's pretty hosed up that you simultaneously drat Tamir for "creating the situation" yet completely hold blameless the two cops who charged right up on him, blew him away with the scarcest of warnings, and then lied to cover it up. Everything about this situation can be directly attached to the two officers who chose to escalate a harmless toy into a shootout with the barest of warnings, but according to you somehow it's the loving child that should have known better than the trained adults . Now I don't know about you, but I feel that we should hold adults to higher standard than 12 year old children when it comes to bring aware their actions have potentially lethal consequences.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:20
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Stereotype posted:Yeah you're right, they were probably super stoked when they heard that there was a young black pre-teen in the park with a fake gun because then they could satisfy their satanic lust for child blood, they'd probably been planning on shooting someone all week. How silly of me to think they recklessly approached a situation and then cowardly panicked. If you negligently create a situation where someone ends up dying, that is a serious crime - even murder in some instances. Premeditated murder, with or without satanic bloodlust, is not the only crime in the world.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:27
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Waco Panty Raid posted:That being said, a 12 year old should know not to behave like that. Hell, Tamir's friend said he warned Tamir to be careful with the airsoft gun so clearly his peers could appreciate the danger. Are you certain Tamir didn't appreciate it or somehow wasn't able to? are you completely shameless or something
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Dec 29, 2015 15:28
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Click on his post history. Same old poo poo, different day.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:29
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Waco Panty Raid posted:That Tamir bears some responsibility doesn't mean he bears all responsibility but actively ignoring what he did or handwaving it away because of his age just leaves us with a distorted version of events. It isn't handwaving, it is explaining. You just want to judge a 12-year-old as an adult. The police didn't see him doing anything other than sitting at a bench. He wasn't pointing the (toy) gun at them. They quickly drove up close to him and shot him before the car even came to a stop. He didn't have time to react because the whole encounter lasted a couple of seconds. It was entirely, entirely the fault of the cops.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:29
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Remember that the person calling 911 said specifically that the gun was probably a toy but just wanted to be safe. So the idea that Tamir was creating a situation that definitely made him appear to be a active shooting threat (which is the only possible excuse for the actions of the officer) is a lie. You can say that the police did not receive that information but it also highlights that blaming Tamir for his own murder is wrong.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:34
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Don't carry concealed when it'd be illegal, don't carry your gun in an irresponsible manner (like pointing it at people or in inappropriate directions), and don't make quick movements to your gun when the police show up sound like good places to start No they don't, these are terribles place to start from a systems safety perspective. The way you reduce injuries and deaths from preventable mistakes and accidents is by fixing the problems of training and accountability of the professional adults with the career in public safety and authorization to use deadly force as part of their jobs, not by hoping that untrained children will never do something irresponsible.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:37
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Radish posted:Remember that the person calling 911 said specifically that the gun was probably a toy but just wanted to be safe. So the idea that Tamir was creating a situation that definitely made him appear to be a active shooting threat (which is the only possible excuse for the actions of the officer) is a lie. You can say that the police did not receive that information but it also highlights that blaming Tamir for his own murder is wrong. Note that some rando civilian caller made the correct threat assessment that somehow escaped the two people whose job it is to assess threats. When some scared old dude is doing a better job estimating the age of a subject and whether he is armed than the police are, focusing on whether the child was being responsible enough is loving absurd.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:44
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