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Amun Khonsu posted:Not at all. Im not talking about Islamic Tawheed or any one God or religion. Im talking about our natural inclination to believe in a being greater than us that is unseen quantified by scientific thought and research on the brain.
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Dec 29, 2015 03:35
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Jastiger posted:Wow you are good at making up poo poo. While its true people are more than ready to ascribe intent to things that happen to them, its the culture that shapes HOW it manifests. Most folks grow out of it and figure out that some 0things don't work out. It takes the truly gullible and ignorant to actually seek out new ways to convince themselves that magic is real. Which part of the things i referenced do you feel is made up? The part where i make reference of this? http://www.godpart.com/ I didnt write the book  Most ppl believe in a God type figure. I posted stats so i dont know why you dont believe them. I didnt make that poo poo up.
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Dec 29, 2015 03:38
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Cingulate posted:Well again, the majority of people and cultures do not believe in a being greater than them or thought or brains or whatever. Facts are there posted for you to read. Read them. Edit: otherwise we are at an empass and should agree to disagree. Ive already made my main point. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 03:41
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Amun Khonsu posted:Which part of the things i referenced do you feel is made up? The part where i make reference of this? http://www.godpart.com/ No you're making up what YOU want/think god should be. Not what is actually happening in our universe. Its quite simply made up, based on old myths and superstition.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:00
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Jastiger posted:No you're making up what YOU want/think god should be. Not what is actually happening in our universe. EX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Europe http://www.godpart.com/book_premise.html I spoke of my experience and answered to your followup question. Time to move on.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:15
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Amun Khonsu posted:EX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Europe Atheism is spreading throughout the Arab world, specifically due to the internet: https://newrepublic.com/article/121559/rise-arab-atheists We still have a long way to go, but little progress is better than none.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:29
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Amun Khonsu posted:Facts are there posted for you to read
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Dec 29, 2015 04:32
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Cingulate posted:I am re-reading the fact that most people are not monotheists and your claim that most people are monotheists and it's weird. Well, I never said "monotheist". I said believe "in God," could be any single or plural God(s). Can we move on now? Edit: maybe I should have made it easier for people to understand this concept, but I thought the figure of speech "believe in God" could be taken generally, not specifically to the "God" most Atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims are familiar with in the west. Especially since I referenced a scientific source and polling data. Understand what I am saying in the "most general" terms. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 04:34
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Amun Khonsu posted:Well, I never said "monotheist". I said believe "in God," could be any single or plural God(s). Can we move on now?
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Dec 29, 2015 04:45
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Amun Khonsu posted:Well, I never said "monotheist". I said believe "in God," could be any single or plural God(s). Can we move on now? I think you're just falling victim to your own worldview being used to justify everyone elses worldview and thinking its just the way of things. Its clearly not. Its something that you have no evidence for so you're trying to justify it by saying "But everyone does it".
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Dec 29, 2015 04:47
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I'm an atheist but this thread is making me want to convert to something just to spite the pushy, evangelical atheists who are just as irritating as the people they hate.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:50
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Cingulate posted:Actually you said, repeatedly, (belief in) "a God". Which is a minority position. Figure of speech. I apologize if I confused you or wasnt clear enough.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:57
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Amun Khonsu posted:Figure of speech. I apologize if I confused you or wasnt clear enough.
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Dec 29, 2015 05:16
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Cingulate posted:My suspicion is it's more a conceptual issue - you're possibly not entirely clear about tawhid, and likely not about what the beliefs of most people (e.g., most Indians, most Chinese, most small tribal societies) actually are like. On the contrary, I have a very clear understanding of tawheed. I am very well aware of the Hindu belief system and pretty familiar with Buddhism as I live in a mainly Chinese country. What you are failing to understand is that im not attempting to speak for any belief system. Im speaking to the human brain and why it is possible that I have always had a natural inclination to believe in a being greater than me who is unseen and responsible for things I cannot understand or comprehend.
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Dec 29, 2015 05:30
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Amun Khonsu posted:On the contrary, I have a very clear understanding of tawheed. I am very well aware of the Hindu belief system and pretty familiar with Buddhism as I live in a mainly Chinese country. What you are failing to understand is that im not attempting to speak for any belief system. Im speaking to the human brain and why it is possible that I have always had a natural inclination to believe in a being greater than me who is unseen and responsible for things I cannot understand or comprehend. Sounds like a convoluted way to say "intellectually lazy" and "gullible".
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Dec 29, 2015 06:19
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Flagrant Abuse posted:I'm an atheist but this thread is making me want to convert to something just to spite the pushy, evangelical atheists who are just as irritating as the people they hate. Try Buddhism. They're essentially atheists who like to meditate.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:40
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Jastiger posted:Sounds like a convoluted way to say "intellectually lazy" and "gullible". Okay 
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Dec 29, 2015 06:47
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Flagrant Abuse posted:I'm an atheist but this thread is making me want to convert to something just to spite the pushy, evangelical atheists who are just as irritating as the people they hate. Taoism or Confucianism maybe. Confucianism is more a philosophy than anything but some view it as a religion. Um, anyway, hello. I'm a guy who bumbles around looking into religions for reasons I'm not even sure anymore. I want to find "the one" maybe? I'm just curious about a couple things that concern me personally because they concern people I love. Hell and sex. I've studied enough faiths East and West to know that this obsession with sexual sin and eternal damnation is a weird Abrahamic thing. I don't know why but I hate it with a fiery passion. I have gay friends, transgender friends, atheist friends and the idea of all of them suffering for eternity for no real reason kind of bugs me, as you might expect. Does Islam or the Qur'an speak explicitly on these matters? Can Muslims "adjust and interpret for the times" like Christianity? After all, we all kinda got over that pesky slavery thing in spite of its Biblical endorsements. Mostly I'd like to actually meet an actual real life Muslim...priest or pastor? I'm sorry I don't know what the term is. Reading on Wikipedia and hearing from you guys is a good way to gather knowledge but I don't know if it will help me "understand" Islam any better, and I want to do that. I do want to make a serious attempt to learn and possibly convert, although I'll be honest, that isn't likely.
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Dec 29, 2015 07:17
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NikkolasKing posted:Taoism or Confucianism maybe. Confucianism is more a philosophy than anything but some view it as a religion. Good questions. First, we do have positions called Imam or Sheikh in the Mosques (or scholars) but there is no central authority to appoint them. They are typically just learned people who go through some formal education and are selected by local mosques and associations. Its why we say there is no "clergy" in Islam. They are there for consultations and you can meet with one if you go to a Mosque and request an appointment or catch him after prayertimes. On the homosexuality issue. It is important to understand that Islam does not teach that we get an automatic "get out of hell" free card, nor are we sent straight to hell simply for committing a sin. Allah forgives any kind of sin if we ask and even the ones we dont ask for He can forgive if He Wills. Only one type of sin is not forgiven after one becomes knowledgeable of it, that is "shirk", or associating partners to God. If one dies in the state of shirk then its pretty much job done. The Quran does consider homosexuality a transgression because it is considered a sexual sin similar to fornication or adultery, however, this does not mean that Allah cannot forgive it. People may be ignorant and not forgive it but Allah is more forgiving than us. The important thing to know is that according to Islam, only Allah knows the heart of a person. "And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people." Qur'an 7:80-81 "And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful." Quran 4:16 Edit for clarification. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 07:34
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Wow, this quickly became an "Ask me/us about apologism" thread. Let's talk about Islam! I have a hypothetical question about salat. So, it's been well established that in extreme latitudes it's okay to do prayers at Mecca time instead of the literal solar times (well, except for the really devoted). So far, the same applies to Muslims in orbit around the Earth. However, in the future, what will it be like for hypothetical future human colonists on other worlds (Mars, etc)? Do you think it'd be based on the individual world's orientation to the Earth, or just Mecca time?
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Dec 29, 2015 09:57
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comaerror posted:Wow, this quickly became an "Ask me/us about apologism" thread. Let's talk about Islam! I have a hypothetical question about salat. So, it's been well established that in extreme latitudes it's okay to do prayers at Mecca time instead of the literal solar times (well, except for the really devoted). So far, the same applies to Muslims in orbit around the Earth. However, in the future, what will it be like for hypothetical future human colonists on other worlds (Mars, etc)? Do you think it'd be based on the individual world's orientation to the Earth, or just Mecca time? heh, I like this sort of thinking. ill have to do some research on this. Off the cuff though, Id say that the times will be based on the sun (whatever sun in the solar system we colonize) in relation to the rotation of the individual planet. The direction will be the closest route to earth. Edit: I cannot work out who is answering this question to determine if they are a credible scholar but the question seems to have been asked here quote:Question: Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 10:19
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Immortan posted:This is the sort of insufferable double-talk among religious apologists that I mentioned earlier. Please tell me that you find polygyny reprehensible. I, personally, favor polygyny. And circumcision. Those are two bits I can get behind, even though I am not fond of the rest.
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Dec 29, 2015 11:05
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Amun Khonsu posted:On the homosexuality issue. It is important to understand that Islam does not teach that we get an automatic "get out of hell" free card, nor are we sent straight to hell simply for committing a sin. Allah forgives any kind of sin if we ask and even the ones we dont ask for He can forgive if He Wills. Only one type of sin is not forgiven after one becomes knowledgeable of it, that is "shirk", or associating partners to God. If one dies in the state of shirk then its pretty much job done. Realistically speaking, you have your moral, you can't get rid of how your brain classifies stuff into moral and immoral, and it's certainly not religious texts that directly, in any moment, make you feel something is immoral. For example, I used to be a (very subdued) Christian, and I guess I kind of knew the Bible condemned e.g. homosexuality, but I personally never thought it was in any way immoral. I just thought, okay, I guess the book is wrong here. But that's not as open of an option in Islam isn't it?
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Dec 29, 2015 13:48
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comaerror posted:Wow, this quickly became an "Ask me/us about apologism" thread. Let's talk about Islam! I have a hypothetical question about salat. So, it's been well established that in extreme latitudes it's okay to do prayers at Mecca time instead of the literal solar times (well, except for the really devoted). So far, the same applies to Muslims in orbit around the Earth. However, in the future, what will it be like for hypothetical future human colonists on other worlds (Mars, etc)? Do you think it'd be based on the individual world's orientation to the Earth, or just Mecca time? Its already silly to perform salat. It'd be even worse to be on The Citidel or Starship Enterprise and trying to calculate where the pale blue dot is so you can kneel in your constantly spinning space ship to appease a 3000 year old god. The correct answer is: This is beyond the scope of Islam since the concept of space didn't exist when the salat was thought up.
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Dec 29, 2015 13:51
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Cingulate posted:How do Muslims deal with statements and doctrines like these? I think you have brought up an interesting issue. There is a concept in Islam called "Jihad Al-Nafs" which means "struggle of the inclinations of the self". The idea is that humans are born with natural inclinations of all kinds (some that conform to God's standards and some that do not) and it is our struggle to tame them and perfect our character. The moral guidelines given to us by the divine revelations (from the Mesengers like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad) are not to say that we don't have varying degrees of moral standards "pre-programmed", but they are given to refine the ones we already have to guide us to perfection (concept known as Ihsan or working towards perfection), which is what "pleases" God in our lifestyles. It's important to understand that God is not condemning the person who feels they are homosexual, to say that they are not equal to other people or to say that they are immoral by nature. However, God's revelations say that he has created man and a woman as mates and that all sexual gratification is between a husband and his wife. All sexual acts outside of this kind of marriage between a husband and wife is considered "Zina" or illegal sexual acts. Since, marraige is between a man and woman according to His revelations, His law identifies the acts involved in homosexuality as a transgression (zina; illegal sex). Under these divine laws we are guided to curb and conform into what God considers for us His intended natural and wholesome relationship designed to propagate the species and provide the best way for our emotional and sexual needs, that between a man and a woman. So, in saying this, it isn't immoral to be inclined to feel feelings of homosexuality, but with the concepts of Jihad al-Nafs (struggle of the inclinations of the self) and Ihsan (working towards prefection) we try to conform to what God says is the best way for us as humans and is ultimately pleasing to Him. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 14:33
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Jastiger posted:Its already silly to perform salat. It'd be even worse to be on The Citidel or Starship Enterprise and trying to calculate where the pale blue dot is so you can kneel in your constantly spinning space ship to appease a 3000 year old god. Making Salat is easier on a Starship. We just pray "travel" prayers, but I guess you already knew about those? Maybe you can also inform us what "Niyah" means in Islam relating to performing our religious duties, too. Islam evolves with time and technology. Nothing is beyond the scope of Islam. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 14:39
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Amun Khonsu posted:Making Salat is easier on a Starship. We just pray "travel" prayers, but I guess you already knew about those? Maybe you can also inform us what "Niyah" means in Islam relating to performing our religious duties, too. So you're saying that no matter what, Islam has an answer for every technological advancement or new discovery? If you are ever off planet you are pretty much relegated to never fulfilling a lot of the tasks and duties Islam asks of you. Its almost as i you can make things up as you go to appease and convert new people. Must be convenient.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:47
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Jastiger posted:So you're saying that no matter what, Islam has an answer for every technological advancement or new discovery? Yes. My last post gave you a clue.
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Dec 29, 2015 14:50
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Amazingly enough, statements that are somewhat vague and poetic can be interpreted to fit many situations to which they do not seem to literally apply, like people being in space or on other planets. THIS JUST IN: Words can be interpreted in many different ways. More on the news at 11.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:07
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Tendai posted:Amazingly enough, statements that are somewhat vague and poetic can be interpreted to fit many situations to which they do not seem to literally apply, like people being in space or on other planets. Which is means it has little explanatory power.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:38
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Amun Khonsu posted:"And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful." Quran 4:16[/i] I notice that it says "if they repent leave them alone" and encourages dishonoring homosexuals until they do repent. Do you agree?
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Dec 29, 2015 15:39
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ashgromnies posted:I notice that it says "if they repent leave them alone" and encourages dishonoring homosexuals until they do repent. Do you agree? If you read the verse prior to this one, Qur'an 4:15, you see that this verse is also in reference to a punitive measures for those found by a state court (with 4 witnesses; shariah standards threshold for judgements on illegal sexual conduct of any kind) to be guilty of lewdness between men, not people taking it upon themselves to mistreat them.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:33
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Immortan posted:Try Buddhism. They're essentially atheists who like to meditate. buddhist enlightenment is supposed to give you magic transcendental god-powers and make your body radiate light and energy and poo poo that's a much cooler religion than the angry middle-eastern bigot ones. don't taint it by association with autistic reddit atheists icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 16:37
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Jastiger posted:Which is means it has little explanatory power. Allahu 'alim.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:44
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Amun Khonsu posted:Allahu 'alim. Literally a child. It sounds like your entire moral philosophy and world view stems from "because I said so".
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Dec 29, 2015 16:45
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Jastiger posted:Literally a child. Well, to be fair, I think perhaps you are in a better position to teach me about Atheism. That's about it. When I have a question about Atheism, Ill ask you.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:55
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"[Ask] me why Islam is a stupid religion for children that shouldn't be followed because it's old and dumb" would be a great idea for another thread. Maybe we can take that discussion there? I'm intrigued by the hadiths and the weight they (don't?) carry. Specifically, Mohamed's statement that the pursuit of knowledge is the responsibility of every Muslim, and it's the use you make of that knowledge that makes it good or bad (vs. the Qur'anic literalists who reject all books that aren't that one). My understanding is that the hadiths are credible hearsay accounts of things Mohamed probably/may have/probably didn't say that amplify what's in the actual scriptures. What's the split on people who accept them vs. those who don't? Are some hadiths (?) more controversial than others? Is "Well, actually, The Prophet said..." likelier to start an argument than to end one? How prevalent is the notion that time spent learning things not in the literal text of the scripture is time wasted? flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 17:38
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flakeloaf posted:"[Ask] me why Islam is a stupid religion for children that shouldn't be followed because it's old and dumb" would be a great idea for another thread. Maybe we can take that discussion there? That being said, within that, there's a lot of breakdown. On the one end you have people who believe in following them to the letter and consider them essentially binding commands as laid down by the behavior and words of Muhammad. On the other end are the strict Qur'anists who totally disregard them. I edge more towards the latter; I acknowledge that they can serve as good examples in some cases but are overwhelmingly so tied to the cultural standards of the Prophet's time as well as being of what is, to me, questionable historicity, that they often simply don't apply. I see some of them as being valuable today, but others I often see as an anchor keeping a large part of the Muslim world convinced that we have to live in a way consistent with pre-Industrial Arabia, which I don't agree with. Whether that will start an argument depends on which hadith you cite, who you're talking to, what degree of importance they ascribe to them, and a host of other things.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:13
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Amun Khonsu posted:If you read the verse prior to this one, Qur'an 4:15, you see that this verse is also in reference to a punitive measures for those found by a state court (with 4 witnesses; shariah standards threshold for judgements on illegal sexual conduct of any kind) to be guilty of lewdness between men, not people taking it upon themselves to mistreat them. So if there are 4 witnesses it's cool by you? edit: I guess what I'm getting at is, is there any way to remove things like that from Sharia? Earlier people were saying Sharia was not Quranic in nature and was subject to interpretation and there was no "book of Sharia laws" to speak of -- but this has direct reference in the Quran! ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:21
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Tendai posted:I acknowledge that they can serve as good examples in some cases but are overwhelmingly so tied to the cultural standards of the Prophet's time as well as being of what is, to me, questionable historicity, that they often simply don't apply. I see some of them as being valuable today, but others I often see as an anchor keeping a large part of the Muslim world convinced that we have to live in a way consistent with pre-Industrial Arabia, which I don't agree with. Well there goes my follow-up question, cause it seemed to me like someone overhearing him say "Man it's a good thing you have something to get all this dust off the cuffs of my izaar" would lead someone to decide everybody should keep a little brush by the doorway, even if they live in northern Quebec.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:34
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