ImpAtom posted:Yes, and that physical body is a limitation. Thus why Obi-Wan becomes 'more powerful than you can possibly imagine' when he gives it up. You ignored the second part of Yoda's line there. "Not this crude matter." Likewise "Size matters not." Obi-Wan is talking about the limitations of Anakin's perspective there. In the context of the prequels, he's referring to Anakin's fear of death. It's not that committing Force Suicide gives you +500 Force Points and unlimited combos, it's that death- reunification with the Force- is a transcendent experience.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:18
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Kurzon posted:We don't know how a lightsaber hilt's weight is distributed. Perhaps the Jedi put some extra weight at the base to balance it out. I was responding to the notion expressed by others that the lightsaber's blade has no weight, and what you're saying is taking that further. I was suggesting that having the blade weigh something would bring it closer to a longsword/claymore like they're wielded in TFA (after all, plasma isn't actually light).
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Dec 29, 2015 16:26
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Effectronica posted:Obi-Wan is talking about the limitations of Anakin's perspective there. In the context of the prequels, he's referring to Anakin's fear of death. It's not that committing Force Suicide gives you +500 Force Points and unlimited combos, it's that death- reunification with the Force- is a transcendent experience. Of course not. Obi-Wan doesn't commit force suicide. He transcends his physical body and becomes one with The Force. It's arguable if Anakin even kills him. Obi-Wan not being tethered by his fear of death and attachment to his physical body allows him to reach levels that he never could otherwise.The physical exists and it is a part of the world but the Jedis having amazing physical powers is a side effect not the primary part.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:29
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ImpAtom posted:Of course not. Obi-Wan doesn't commit force suicide. He transcends his physical body and becomes one with The Force. It's arguable if Anakin even kills him. Obi-Wan not being tethered by his fear of death and attachment to his physical body allows him to reach levels that he never could otherwise.The physical exists and it is a part of the world but the Jedis having amazing physical powers is a side effect not the primary part. He commits force suicide. He dies, and is later a ghost. Becoming one with the Force is death.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:31
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Effectronica posted:He commits force suicide. He dies, and is later a ghost. Becoming one with the Force is death. I am pretty sure that, no, Obi-Wan does not use a video game skill called Force Suicide which sacrifices all his HP for Force Points. He achieves transcendence. It means the end of his physical body and him becoming one with The Force, but it isn't a base crude transformation for more power. The physical exists for a Jedi but it is not a limitation if one is able to get rid of limitations. It's just harder to do that then it sounds and even the masters of the force have their limits. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 16:38
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ImpAtom posted:I am pretty sure that, no, Obi-Wan does not use a video game skill called Force Suicide which sacrifices all his HP for Force Points. He dies, by using the Force, because normal people don't disintegrate on death, nor do they die spontaneously. The key point here is that death is a transcendent experience, which someone like the Emperor or Anakin doesn't understand.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:41
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Effectronica posted:He dies, by using the Force, because normal people don't disintegrate on death, nor do they die spontaneously. The key point here is that death is a transcendent experience, which someone like the Emperor or Anakin doesn't understand. At this point I'm not actually clear on what argument you're making? Like not a single thing you've said actually backs up the idea that the physical is actually super-important to the Jedi and if anything you seem to be agreeing that it's a limitation that they intend to transcend.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:45
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ImpAtom posted:At this point I'm not actually clear on what argument you're making? Like not a single thing you've said actually backs up the idea that the physical is actually super-important to the Jedi. I'm arguing that Obi-Wan is not talking about power in the sense of the ability to do things, because he's dead and can only talk to people after that. I mean, we can envision a blissful Pure Land or whatever he's in where he can do whatever he likes, but that's not relevant. The physical is obviously pretty important, though, because the Jedi don't just immediately kill themselves to reunite with the Force. The physical matters a whole lot, really.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:47
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Effectronica posted:I'm arguing that Obi-Wan is not talking about power in the sense of the ability to do things, because he's dead and can only talk to people after that. I mean, we can envision a blissful Pure Land or whatever he's in where he can do whatever he likes, but that's not relevant. The Jedi don't do that because the Jedi are not able to do that. The prequel Jedi suck at their job. They are overly worried about the physical. Even Qui-Gon, who is probably the most Jedi-y of the Jedi, is physical upon his death. Why? Because he's not able to let go of that fear. ("Nothing can kill a Jedi." "I wish it were so...") The prequel Jedi consider the physical very important. They prequel Jedi are also a buncha fuckups. There's a reason half of what Yoda tries to teach Luke in ESB is "for the love of god don't be like us." Now there's an argument to be made that Yoda and Obi-Wan are wrong about some times. They were wrong about Vader being saved. But even there Vader wasn't saved because Luke used Force Redemption Level 3 on him. He was saved because Luke was able to throw away his lightsaber and refuse to go down the dark path even at the cost of the lives of himself and possibly all of his friends. To Luke, at that moment, the spiritual eclipsed even the more dire of physical concerns. Luke did not save Anakin Skywalker's physical body. He saved his soul.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:58
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ImpAtom posted:The Jedi don't do that because the Jedi are not able to do that. The prequel Jedi suck at their job. They are overly worried about the physical. Even Qui-Gon, who is probably the most Jedi-y of the Jedi, is physical upon his death. Why? Because he's not able to let go of that fear. ("Nothing can kill a Jedi." "I wish it were so...") The prequel Jedi consider the physical very important. They prequel Jedi are also a buncha fuckups. There's a reason half of what Yoda tries to teach Luke in ESB is "for the love of god don't be like us." The fact that the Jedi existed at all means that the physical is important, dude.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:02
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Effectronica posted:The fact that the Jedi existed at all means that the physical is important, dude. How so?
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Dec 29, 2015 17:05
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It's better not to think too much about force ghosts because it becomes pretty ridiculous the more you think about the whole concept. It is fine as concept for Star War's fairytale approach and was used as storytelling crotch but the existence of force ghosts is really, really awkward when it comes to the whole philosophy/religion aspect of the Jedi/the force and opens up a can of worms.ImpAtom posted:How so? If the physical isn't "important" the Jedi/the force wouldn't need to care about it. "Important" implies a purpose and the force (force ghosts) obviously seem to interact with the physical world so there must be a purpose behind it and any purpose means there is importance to the physical world. The usual answer to such philosophical questions is that the spiritual world (force) can't exist without the pyhsical, that both are interdependent. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 17:12
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ImpAtom posted:How so? Because they don't immediately transcend to reunify with the Force. Because the way that Obi-Wan and Yoda act in the OT makes it clear that even with a more enlightened perspective, they still believe the physical to be important enough that the Emperor and Vader must be overthrown.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:14
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LinkesAuge posted:It's better not to think too much about force ghosts because it becomes pretty ridiculous the more you think about the whole concept. It is fine as concept for Star War's fairytale approach and was used as storytelling crotch but the existence of force ghosts is really, really awkward when it comes to the whole philosophy/religion aspect of the Jedi/the force and opens up a can of worms. "Don't think about this part of the film because I don't like what it says" isn't really a reasonable groundpoint for analysis. They're in the film and can't be ignored. Effectronica posted:Because they don't immediately transcend to reunify with the Force. Because the way that Obi-Wan and Yoda act in the OT makes it clear that even with a more enlightened perspective, they still believe the physical to be important enough that the Emperor and Vader must be overthrown. Even those who are enlightened seek to help those who are not. You can make arguments for the ghosts being able to continue helping but nobody but Luke ever sees them and even Luke takes time to do that. Obviously the physical world is important. People live there. That's significantly different from physical aspects being important to mastering the force.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:27
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Reality is an illusion anyway.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:34
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I thought the coat was just JJ Abrams trying to make it clear that THIS IS NOT A CONTINUITY ERROR when Han kept going in and outside of the cold with his parka. Ugh. There's a Huffington Post article about FORTY UNFORGIVABLE PLOT HOLES written by an assistant professor who apparently has no idea what plot holes actually are. At least one was literally just a question he had that the movies have not yet answered.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:37
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Remember, if you find a 'plot hole' you win a movie. Also any episode of a television series that doesn't specifically advance the plot is 'filler' and should be skipped.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:39
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ImpAtom posted:"Don't think about this part of the film because I don't like what it says" isn't really a reasonable groundpoint for analysis. They're in the film and can't be ignored. Okay. Let me sum up what you seem to be saying, to me. "Physicality is unimportant to the Jedi, although the physical world is important." So if we are arguing whether the hand gestures are important or not, that's one thing. If we're arguing over whether the physical world is important to the Jedi, that's another. But they seem to be entangled here.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:39
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Effectronica posted:Okay. Let me sum up what you seem to be saying, to me. The physical world is important in that people live there and the vast vast vast majority of people are not Jedi and any potential they have to become a force-user is outside of their personal and mental realm. The physical world is unimportant to someone trying to master The Force because the Force does not rely on the physical world and in fact learning to overcome and transcend the seeming limitations of the physical world is an important part of mastering the Force. This includes not just the literal physical limitations such as "I can't lift an X-Wing with my mind" but the attachment and focus on physical matters. This does not mean that emotion and personal connections are not important which is demonstrably false. They are are just dangerous because they can be twisted and the Jedi (incorrectly as implied by RotJ) assume the wiser plan is to forgo emotion instead of embracing it so there is less risk of falling. There's also the fact that what the will of the Force is may not be what a person individually wants. If you believe the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance to the Force then regardless of it was "there are a thousand Jedi and two Sith, that poo poo is out of wack" or "it's a long-term goal but Anakin finally does kill the last Sith lord", it's not a great deal for a whole lot of people on an individual level. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 17:47
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ImpAtom posted:The physical world is important in that people live there and the vast vast vast majority of people are not Jedi and any potential they have to become a force-user is outside of their personal and mental realm. Why is it noticeably harder to move larger objects then? Yoda may say size doesn't matter, but it clearly takes him more effort to move the X-wing.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:54
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ImpAtom posted:The physical world is important in that people live there and the vast vast vast majority of people are not Jedi and any potential they have to become a force-user is outside of their personal and mental realm. But, on the other hand, every single Force-user besides possibly Vader does the hand motions and so on to use the Force. And Vader is the chosen one of the Force. So there is some physicality involved, and this is entirely consistent. We may not just be crude matter, but we are still partly matter.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:57
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Megasabin posted:Why is it noticeably harder to move larger objects then? Yoda may say size doesn't matter, but it clearly takes him more effort to move the X-wing. More effort than what? Effectronica posted:But, on the other hand, every single Force-user besides possibly Vader does the hand motions and so on to use the Force. And Vader is the chosen one of the Force. So there is some physicality involved, and this is entirely consistent. We may not just be crude matter, but we are still partly matter. The flaw is assuming that the hand motions are necessary and not just a personal habit or an ingrained teaching. We have plenty of examples of how this isn't true too. (Not in the least, though it's a bit unfair to count it, Rey doing the mind trick without hand motions in the new film.) There is nothing implying that the hand motion is a required element of reading someone's mind and not something that someone does because it feels right or they're used to it or whatever. Also Vader doesn't need to use hand motions. We see it in his duel with Luke in Empire Strikes Back. He's pulling poo poo off the wall without doing anything of the sort. It's sort of odd to imply that Vader being the chosen one would mean he can... what, use the Force better in a way he doesn't need to make hand motions? Even though he plainly does at other times. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:00
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ImpAtom posted:More effort than what? That's what I said. Vader's the only one, though. Rey (untrained) is stretching her arm out to pull the lightsaber telekinetically. The Emperor raises his hands to shoot lightning or throw senate pods. Yoda moves his hand to lift the X-wing out of the swamp. It may not be strictly necessary, but everyone does it. Probably because it connects the ethereal to the concrete. I want to pull on this, and not that.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:09
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ImpAtom posted:The flaw is assuming that the hand motions are necessary and not just a personal habit or an ingrained teaching. We have plenty of examples of how this isn't true too. (Not in the least, though it's a bit unfair to count it, Rey doing the mind trick without hand motions in the new film.) Yeah, in TPM there was a bit where Obi-Wan moved Qui-Gon's saber without hand motions. I mean, his hands were quite busy at the time. And he couldn't even properly see the saber from his position in the shaft.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:12
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Effectronica posted:That's what I said. Vader's the only one, though. Rey (untrained) is stretching her arm out to pull the lightsaber telekinetically. The Emperor raises his hands to shoot lightning or throw senate pods. Yoda moves his hand to lift the X-wing out of the swamp. It may not be strictly necessary, but everyone does it. Probably because it connects the ethereal to the concrete. I want to pull on this, and not that. Right, but again, there's nothing saying it is necessary. It is a thing people do because it feels natural or helps them focus or whatever, but Vader shows us that it isn't necessary. The act of reaching out physically, even when using the force, probably comes natural to people because it is what they'd do without the Force. Obi-Wan waves his hand while doing the mind trick because Qui-Gon does it and Qui-Gon probably does it because whoever taught him did it. Rey, without that training, doesn't need to wave her hand.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:16
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ImpAtom posted:Right, but again, there's nothing saying it is necessary. It is a thing people do because it feels natural or helps them focus or whatever, but Vader shows us that it isn't necessary. The act of reaching out physically, even when using the force, probably comes natural to people because it is what they'd do without the Force. Obi-Wan waves his hand while doing the mind trick because Qui-Gon does it and Qui-Gon probably does it because whoever taught him did it. Rey, without that training, doesn't need to wave her hand. We actually don't see her hands when she's doing the mind trick, because they're in restraints.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:17
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Effectronica posted:We actually don't see her hands when she's doing the mind trick, because they're in restraints. Yes, which is why we can safely assume she is not waving them in front of his face. Like at this point you're actually arguing in favor of the Force being magic spells that need the specific wording and motions to use and I'm really comfortable saying that is straight-up wrong with what we're shown in the movies.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:18
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ImpAtom posted:"Don't think about this part of the film because I don't like what it says" isn't really a reasonable groundpoint for analysis. They're in the film and can't be ignored. That wasn't my point but I already observed that you really don't want to understand what others write. My point is that the story of Star War's and how it's presented is too weak to create a fictional philosophy that is internally consistent and works within its own universe. In this case it's really a case of "overthinking" things. Once you try to analyse why force ghosts are around at all you end up with all kinds of problems. Accept them as story telling tool that is grounded in the Jedi philosophy instead of seeing things that were never intended or even hinted at. quote:Even those who are enlightened seek to help those who are not. You can make arguments for the ghosts being able to continue helping but nobody but Luke ever sees them and even Luke takes time to do that. The Clone Wars animated series goes into the "history" of force ghost. It's Qui-Gon who "discovered" that ability and taught it to Yoda so it's not even something Jedi were aware of until very recently in their history and it's not something they ever had as "goal" or something they wanted to master. You could make an argument that the force itself intervenes in the physical world and first gives this ability to Qui-Gon which leads to Yoda and Obi-Wan getting it too with the outcome we all know. However becoming a "force ghost" in itself is never represented as reaching a higher stage of existence (I mean what would that even mean for everyone else? That only Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin get to live in Jedi paradise?), it's a tool of the force for the interaction between the physical world and whatever is outside of it. ImpAtom posted:The physical world is important in that people live there and the vast vast vast majority of people are not Jedi and any potential they have to become a force-user is outside of their personal and mental realm. But the force isn't about "overcoming the physical world". Where is this ever stated? The Jedi don't talk about force heaven, force hell or anything like that, they don't strive to reach another stage of consciousness or whatever. The force exists IN the physicial world, is part or at least interconnected with it. This is what Yoda says in ESB about the force: " For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship." The force isn't some other realm or higher dimension of existence like you try to argue here. It's only not "physical" in the way energy in our reality isn't "physical" but just as energy is part of our physical world so is the force in Star Wars. It's clearly a power that interacts with the physical worlds and if you trust Yoda's words the force is actually dependent on LIFE itself. That's why Yoda and so on don't "ascend" to the next level, they just transform to another state of existence but it's not an evolutionary next step or anything like that and thus fits much better with the Jedi philosophy and how the force is presented in general. That's why your whole "the physical world is unimportant" approach doesn't work because it makes a distinction that has no place. Yes, Yoda makes a difference between matter and "energy" (Luminous beings) but only to point out that there is not just matter that defines us but also an energy. This however doesn't mean this energy (force) isn't part of the physical world, Yoda makes it more than clear that it is and thus the physical world is important because there is no force without pyhsical world. The force is more similar to a physics concept like antimatter (with a fantasy twist) than it is to christian space heaven. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:22
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LinkesAuge posted:That wasn't my point but I already observed that you really don't want to understand what others write. My point is that the story of Star War's and how it's presented is too weak to create a fictional philosophy that is internally consistent and works within its own universe. In this case it's really a case of "overthinking" things. Once you try to analyse why force ghosts are around at all you end up with all kinds of problems. Accept them as story telling tool that is grounded in the Jedi philosophy instead of seeing things that were never intended or even hinted at. ... So, that wasn't your point but you're specifically saying it is overthinking things to analyze them? LinkesAuge posted:The Clone Wars animated series goes into the "history" of force ghost. When that appears in the movies I'll give a poo poo. If we're going to bring the Star Wars EU in then there's plenty of other things to argue. LinkesAuge posted:But the force isn't about "overcoming the physical world". Where is this ever stated? The Jedi don't talk about force heaven, force hell or anything like that, they don't strive to reach another stage of consciousness or whatever. It is, in fact, a major factor in Obi-Wan allowing himself to be struck down so that he could become 'more powerful than you ever imagined.' ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:24
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, which is why we can safely assume she is not waving them in front of his face. No, I'm not. If I were, I'd be saying, "the Force is magic spells that need the specific wording and motions to use". I am saying that the motions are used by people consistently over the movies, and the only character who obviously does not use them is the messiah, and so they are probably important in some way to using the Force to manipulate the physical world. The movies do not advocate monasticism. So why are we assuming that the Force is purely ascetic in nature and the body and physicality are irrelevant? Because we assume that spirituality is naturally otherworldly?
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Dec 29, 2015 18:25
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Dec 29, 2015 18:28
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ImpAtom posted:... So, that wasn't your point but you're specifically saying it is overthinking things to analyze them? I'm saying you are being obtuse on purpose. It's one thing to analyze them but a totally different thing to built your own philosophy around it which isn't really based on something that is ever said or done. If you want to draw conclusions from such an analysis then I gave you one but it still doesn't mean force ghosts make any logical sense or are even internally consistent in Star War's universe. ImpAtom posted:Like at this point you're actually arguing in favor of the Force being magic spells that need the specific wording and motions to use and I'm really comfortable saying that is straight-up wrong with what we're shown in the movies. You can manipulate energy fields with physical motion, see the Theremin instrument as real world example. The force works in a similar way, it might be energy but it isn't disconnected from the physical world/matter. The whole mental aspect of the Jedi is only the entrance to the force, it doesn't mean there is no physical aspect to it at all. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:29
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Effectronica posted:The movies do not advocate monasticism. So why are we assuming that the Force is purely ascetic in nature and the body and physicality are irrelevant? Because we assume that spirituality is naturally otherworldly? Because the films go out of their way to show that physicality is overrated and a connection to it is the mistake of flawed minds. The 'strongest' Force Users we see are 900 year old dying muppet, a creature more machine than man, and a horrifying wrinkled mess of a man. Luke's greatest success is throwing away his lightsaber and choosing to die during the most critical battle of the Rebellion because his soul (and the soul of his father) is more important that the Emperor's death. LinkesAuge posted:I'm saying you are being obtuse on purpose. It's one thing to analyze them but a totally different thing to built your own philosophy around it which isn't really based on something that is ever said or done. You are literally arguing that the things presented in the universe 'don't make logical sense' because they don't agree with what you want them to say. This is not be me being obtuse it is you literally going "I don't agree with this so I'm going to say it makes no sense." Carrie Fisher is the best. Edit: Oh wait, is that really her twitter? I choose to believe it is because she is still the best. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:33
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Maybe using telekinesis causes you to instinctively move your body unless you make a special effort not to.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:38
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ImpAtom posted:Because the films go out of their way to show that physicality is overrated and a connection to it is the mistake of flawed minds. The 'strongest' Force Users we see are 900 year old dying muppet, a creature more machine than man, and a horrifying wrinkled mess of a man. Luke's greatest success is throwing away his lightsaber and choosing to die during the most critical battle of the Rebellion because his soul (and the soul of his father) is more important that the Emperor's death. Luke's sacrifice isn't meaningless, however. If the soul is all that matters, then physical torments are nothing. Destroy this temple, and I shall raise it up in three days. The body does matter, because Luke being tortured to death because he was unwilling to abandon morality is a sacrifice.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:40
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ImpAtom posted:When that appears in the movies I'll give a poo poo. If we're going to bring the Star Wars EU in then there's plenty of other things to argue. But it isn't some EU poo poo I don't take care about either, it is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself and has certainly more value than random speculation by either you or me. quote:It is, in fact, a major factor in Obi-Wan allowing himself to be struck down so that he could become 'more powerful than you ever imagined.' But the "than you ever imagined" part is important and also what "powerful" means in this context. Obi-Wan himself doesn't get powerful, his power comes from his new ability to interact with Luke at any time and at any place and guide him beyond his death. It's a useless tool to get Luke to where he needs to be but it is never presented as "improvement" or something you should strife for or else why doesn't Luke just become a force ghost or everyone else for that matter (and why don't Yoda or Obi-Wan just become force ghosts earlier if its so powerful? The obvious answer is because this "power" has other limitations and is only "powerful" in combination with Luke)?
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Dec 29, 2015 18:41
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ImpAtom posted:Because the films go out of their way to show that physicality is overrated and a connection to it is the mistake of flawed minds. The 'strongest' Force Users we see are 900 year old dying muppet, a creature more machine than man, and a horrifying wrinkled mess of a man. Luke's greatest success is throwing away his lightsaber and choosing to die during the most critical battle of the Rebellion because his soul (and the soul of his father) is more important that the Emperor's death. Once again you make things up. Not once is it stated that "physicality is overrated". Yoda makes just the point that there is MORE to existence than just matter, that other forces are at play, not to mention that Yoda (as well as the force) very much seem to care about the physical world. Your mistake is to equate "physical world" just with matter while it is just as much energy that can be part of it. quote:You are literally arguing that the things presented in the universe 'don't make logical sense' because they don't agree with what you want them to say. This is not be me being obtuse it is you literally going "I don't agree with this so I'm going to say it makes no sense." What? I only ever said that force ghosts don't make sense once you try to analyse them in detail and draw big conclusions from them and I don't see what this has to do with agreeing or not with anything. There is a reason why they (Lucas) came up with that convoluted explanation in the animated Clone Wars series because the whole thing really falls apart once you think too much about it. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:49
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LinkesAuge posted:But it isn't some EU poo poo I don't take care about either, it is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself and has certainly more value than random speculation by either you or me. You know what else is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself?  Effectronica posted:Luke's sacrifice isn't meaningless, however. If the soul is all that matters, then physical torments are nothing. Destroy this temple, and I shall raise it up in three days. The body does matter, because Luke being tortured to death because he was unwilling to abandon morality is a sacrifice. The physical not being important to the force doesn't mean it isn't important to Luke. Luke being very strongly connected to the physical is why he has that problem in the first place.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:50
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ImpAtom posted:You know what else is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself? I'm not Luke, so why should I care if he's suffering physical torments that aren't real in any case? His soul is all that matters, right? But the movie doesn't support that. It presents him being tortured to death as a sacrifice. So either the movie doesn't support this, or it's incoherent.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:52
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Effectronica posted:I'm not Luke, so why should I care if he's suffering physical torments that aren't real in any case? His soul is all that matters, right? But the movie doesn't support that. It presents him being tortured to death as a sacrifice. So either the movie doesn't support this, or it's incoherent. I will say that at bare minimum I'm pretty sure the idea of someone suffering and dying, even if they know that their physical body is merely a container for a soul and something greater awaits them after death, is still considered a sacrifice.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:56
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