Ask me/us about Islam

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me/us about Islam

Maoist Pussy: Feb 12, 2014; by Lowtax

Amun Khonsu posted:

Well, to be fair, I think perhaps you are in a better position to teach me about Atheism. That's about it. When I have a question about Atheism, Ill ask you.

Atheism is pretty simple: when you hear something that tells you to believe in magic, don't.

# ? Dec 29, 2015 18:59

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 13:30

Jastiger: Oct 11, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Maoist Pussy posted:

Atheism is pretty simple: when you hear something that tells you to believe in magic, don't.

# ? Dec 29, 2015 19:12

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

Maoist Pussy posted:

Atheism is pretty simple: when you hear something that tells you to believe in magic, don't.

Sounds dull. How do you play DnD?

ashgromnies posted:

So if there are 4 witnesses it's cool by you?

edit: I guess what I'm getting at is, is there any way to remove things like that from Sharia? Earlier people were saying Sharia was not Quranic in nature and was subject to interpretation and there was no "book of Sharia laws" to speak of -- but this has direct reference in the Quran!

The 4 witnesses must be of impeccable character and judgment, people the entire community trusts as upstanding citizens. Also, these witnesses must catch the perpetrators (?) in the act, and not assume sex happened because two men are sweaty.

It's not really as easy as you'd think, considering that most sex happens in private.

# ? Dec 29, 2015 19:18

ashgromnies: Jun 19, 2004

Zakmonster posted:

Sounds dull. How do you play DnD?

The 4 witnesses must be of impeccable character and judgment, people the entire community trusts as upstanding citizens. Also, these witnesses must catch the perpetrators (?) in the act, and not assume sex happened because two men are sweaty.

It's not really as easy as you'd think, considering that most sex happens in private.

Right, but that's kind of a dodge of my question. If there were the witnesses and the prosecution and punishment happened according to the letter of the law, would you feel it is justified and moral? Or should the moral code be adjusted? Can it be?

ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Dec 29, 2015

# ? Dec 29, 2015 19:25

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Amun Khonsu posted:

I think you have brought up an interesting issue.

There is a concept in Islam called "Jihad Al-Nafs" which means "struggle of the inclinations of the self". The idea is that humans are born with natural inclinations of all kinds (some that conform to God's standards and some that do not) and it is our struggle to tame them and perfect our character. The moral guidelines given to us by the divine revelations (from the Mesengers like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad) are not to say that we don't have varying degrees of moral standards "pre-programmed", but they are given to refine the ones we already have to guide us to perfection (concept known as Ihsan or working towards perfection), which is what "pleases" God in our lifestyles.

It's important to understand that God is not condemning the person who feels they are homosexual, to say that they are not equal to other people or to say that they are immoral by nature. However, God's revelations say that he has created man and a woman as mates and that all sexual gratification is between a husband and his wife. All sexual acts outside of this kind of marriage between a husband and wife is considered "Zina" or illegal sexual acts. Since, marraige is between a man and woman according to His revelations, His law identifies the acts involved in homosexuality as a transgression (zina; illegal sex). Under these divine laws we are guided to curb and conform into what God considers for us His intended natural and wholesome relationship designed to propagate the species and provide the best way for our emotional and sexual needs, that between a man and a woman.

So, in saying this, it isn't immoral to be inclined to feel feelings of homosexuality, but with the concepts of Jihad al-Nafs (struggle of the inclinations of the self) and Ihsan (working towards prefection) we try to conform to what God says is the best way for us as humans and is ultimately pleasing to Him.

Okay, that was a "Ask me about Islam" answer, but I guess I'm asking a "Ask me about being a Muslim" question.

I think I get the theological perspective on this, but I'm asking about the psychology. How do the Muslims around you feel and think about this? "Allah is the judge, not me" is not the answer I'm looking for. I'm quite convinced that with everything you see, you can, and usually do, immediately create a moral judgement that predates any reflection of what e.g. scripture (or secular law) tells you. If you see a strong man beating a pregnant woman, you don't reflect, hm, what do the Hadith say? You immediately feel this is wrong.

And I'm asking, what's the feelings, thoughts, and perhaps afterwards, reflections based on scripture, regarding homosexuality? Not, what is the theological take on this.

Zakmonster posted:

Sounds dull. How do you play DnD?

The 4 witnesses must be of impeccable character and judgment, people the entire community trusts as upstanding citizens. Also, these witnesses must catch the perpetrators (?) in the act, and not assume sex happened because two men are sweaty.

It's not really as easy as you'd think, considering that most sex happens in private.

Same goes for you. You're giving an answer of why the peculiarities of the law will make persecution rare. But what's in the heart?

# ? Dec 29, 2015 20:23

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

ashgromnies posted:

So if there are 4 witnesses it's cool by you?

edit: I guess what I'm getting at is, is there any way to remove things like that from Sharia? Earlier people were saying Sharia was not Quranic in nature and was subject to interpretation and there was no "book of Sharia laws" to speak of -- but this has direct reference in the Quran!

Shariah is man made law based on Gods revelations. It is a system that man uses to govern man. There is no theocracy in Islam. So, Shariah can evolve. The only aspects of Shariah that cannot or will not change is the religious aspects, things like related to the 5 pillars or 6 basic beliefs, etc. Punishments specified by Shariah for sins are only for state run institutions, not vigilantes and they are maximum recommendations, not mandatory recommendations. This is why if you look at Muslims worldwide, you see such a wide range of shariah application, some still brutal by our standards (maybe acceptable by 7th century standards) to more modern and conforming to a "modern" standard. It really depends on the social development of the people in a tribe, territory, region or country.

So to answer your questions, yes, the manner in which states deal with issues of homosexuality can and has changed over time. It would not change the fact that we would still view the acts involved as a sexual sin.

Edit to add: 4 witnesses is a good standard to go by and more stringent than western standards of using eye witnesses. How many people are actually going to witness 2 gay men having sex? Probably only the 2 gay men. Therefore they cannot legally be brought to a shariah court.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Dec 30, 2015

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:23

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Maoist Pussy posted:

Atheism is pretty simple: when you hear something that tells you to believe in magic, don't.

Yet you believe the universe magically appeared.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:27

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Amun Khonsu posted:

Yet you believe the universe magically appeared.

This is not an accurate representation of atheist's beliefs.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:29

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Cingulate posted:

This is not an accurate representation of atheist's beliefs.

Niether is it an accurate representation of Islamic beliefs. You cannot think with a mind affected by Christianity to understand Islamic beliefs on science.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:30

Jastiger: Oct 11, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Lol

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:37

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

ashgromnies posted:

Right, but that's kind of a dodge of my question. If there were the witnesses and the prosecution and punishment happened according to the letter of the law, would you feel it is justified and moral? Or should the moral code be adjusted? Can it be?

Phone posting, excuse any mistakes.

If you're asking me, personally, if I believe to homosexual Muslims who were caught in the act should be punished, I'd say yes. There are rules, you follow them or face the consequences.

But also consider that I live in a country where sharia law is limited to non-corporal matters. I will literally never run into this problem so long as I live here. It pretty academic right now.

If I lived in a full on sharia law Muslim country and I've personally known people who've been stoned to death because of Zina, then most likely my opinion would be different.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:39

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Cingulate posted:

Okay, that was a "Ask me about Islam" answer, but I guess I'm asking a "Ask me about being a Muslim" question.

I think I get the theological perspective on this, but I'm asking about the psychology. How do the Muslims around you feel and think about this? "Allah is the judge, not me" is not the answer I'm looking for. I'm quite convinced that with everything you see, you can, and usually do, immediately create a moral judgement that predates any reflection of what e.g. scripture (or secular law) tells you. If you see a strong man beating a pregnant woman, you don't reflect, hm, what do the Hadith say? You immediately feel this is wrong.

And I'm asking, what's the feelings, thoughts, and perhaps afterwards, reflections based on scripture, regarding homosexuality? Not, what is the theological take on this.
Same goes for you. You're giving an answer of why the peculiarities of the law will make persecution rare. But what's in the heart?

I see. Sorry if I misunderstood.

It really depends on the individual obviously. From my personal experience, even among my more conservative friends, we simply view it like any other sexual sin outside of marriage between a husband and wife. We treat them no differently than any other person, equally and with dignity and respect, but perhaps not approving of the lifestyle. We tend not to be evangelical about these beliefs as it is a personal choice. We live, work and play with these people and it never is an issue. Last month I went to a dinner party with a homosexual colleague and his partner and the issue never came up. Great people and we all had a great evening.

The hadith are second in authority to the Quran and used by scholars to develop shariah. They were written 200 or so years after the Prophet died and even Muslims debate how to view or apply them in our modern lives, whereas the Quran is not questioned. The hadith also give us the shariah standard of 4 witnesses etc, in addition maximum punishment for acts within the confines of an Islamic state under shariah, however, this should be tamed by the forgiveness and reconciliation aspects of the Quran. In many Muslim countries, applications of law and how it encourages social attitudes towards this varies greatly.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 30, 2015

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:43

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Zakmonster posted:

If I lived in a full on sharia law Muslim country and I've personally known people who've been stoned to death because of Zina, then most likely my opinion would be different.

Why? With what justification? It's not that the text has, or could, change.

Zakmonster posted:

If you're asking me, personally, if I believe to homosexual Muslims who were caught in the act should be punished, I'd say yes. There are rules, you follow them or face the consequences.

But the punishment is not a punishment for disobeying a rule. It is a punishment for committing an offense against God.

Amun Khonsu posted:

Edit to add: 4 witnesses is a good standard to go by and more stringent than western standards of using eye witnesses. How many people are actually going to witness 2 gay men having sex? Probably only the 2 gay men. Therefore they cannot legally be brought to a shariah court.

But what if it does happen?

And I guess there's the counterside - probably a common topic - that this also applies to rape, making it nearly impossible to prove rape.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:50

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Amun Khonsu posted:

It really depends on the individual obviously. From my personal experience, even among my more conservative friends, we simply view it like any other sexual sin outside of marriage between a husband and wife. We treat them no differently than any other person, equally and with dignity and respect, but perhaps not approving of the lifestyle. We tend not to be evangelical about these beliefs as it is a personal choice. We live, work and play with these people and it never is an issue. Last month I went to a dinner party with a homosexual colleague and his partner and the issue never came up. Great people and we all had a great evening.

Okay this is really hard for me to get my head around.

I have a few friends whose sexual behavior would, if I were to observe it, disgust me. For example, my siblings - I never ever wish to see my siblings have sex. Yet, this disgust is of course completely nonconsequential, because while it might be disgusting to me, it's clearly not a bad thing (but, in fact, a good and beautiful thing).
On the other hand, if I learned some friends of mine would not only desire, but repeatedly practice pedophilia, I would not only be disgusted, I would call the police and I'd also find it very hard to stay friends with them. I wouldn't tolerate that. I wouldn't have great evenings with them and simply ignore the pedophilia. I'd treat them like sick people who need help - extensive therapy - , and, first and foremost, to be stopped.

I would not pride myself on being nonjudgemental, I would not try to abstain from being evangelical, I would not tolerate this.

Do you see how what you said is hard to understand for me?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 02:57

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Cingulate posted:

Why? With what justification? It's not that the text has, or could, change.
But the punishment is not a punishment for disobeying a rule. It is a punishment for committing an offense against God.
But what if it does happen?

And I guess there's the counterside - probably a common topic - that this also applies to rape, making it nearly impossible to prove rape.

Well, I live in a westernized country with only 17% Muslim population, mainly Chinese. Homosexuality is legal and the Muslims here (incl me) dont seem to make a fuss over it. There is the option for the Shariah system on some matters (like Marriage or Wills, etc) but penal matters there is no Shariah since its a mainly Buddhist country.

My opinion is that in a Muslim (or non-Muslim) country that has outlawed something, we should obey the law or expect to be judged by the law, just like we do in the west. The punishment is for violating the law. God gave us guidance but expects us to govern. Shariah is developed by scholars and based on Gods laws but is not theocratic. It could be that a Muslim country does not have Shariah implemented regarding penal matters and it is still a sin against God. This does not give Muslims rights to punish a person because they committed an offence against God. Shariah is a legal framework and people cannot simply act out as vigilantes because their religion says it is an offence against God and should be punished.

I personally like the 4 witness mandate set down by the Quran. It makes it nearly impossible to prove. On the contrary, people do misuse this restriction to wrongfully accuse others in tribal feuds and sht. But, corruption exists in all cultures and faiths.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:04

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

Cingulate posted:

Why? With what justification? It's not that the text has, or could, change.
But the punishment is not a punishment for disobeying a rule. It is a punishment for committing an offense against God.
But what if it does happen?

And I guess there's the counterside - probably a common topic - that this also applies to rape, making it nearly impossible to prove rape.

Because I'd have to come face to face with actually carrying out the punishment. Like I said, it's all academic to me right now, so I can, and probably am, just talking out my rear end.

And yes, it's an offense against God, and it's breaking a law that is in place. There is natural human morality, yes, but God places another morality on us, on top of that. He has set us standards to live by and it's up to us to try to do that. When we fail to, we pray for forgiveness and God will forgive us because we are human and we fail.

Rape, on the other hand, has a different set of rules. If the victim comes forward, then we bypass the 4 witnesses and it comes down to the judge and the court to find out the truth, as in any other secular court.

This article might be enlightening:https://drnaumanshad.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/forensic-criminology-in-the-holy-quran/

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:11

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Amun Khonsu posted:

Well, I live in a westernized country with only 17% Muslim population, mainly Chinese. Homosexuality is legal and the Muslims here (incl me) dont seem to make a fuss over it. There is the option for the Shariah system on some matters (like Marriage or Wills, etc) but penal matters there is no Shariah since its a mainly Buddhist country.

My opinion is that in a Muslim (or non-Muslim) country that has outlawed something, we should obey the law or expect to be judged by the law, just like we do in the west. The punishment is for violating the law. God gave us guidance but expects us to govern. Shariah is developed by scholars and based on Gods laws but is not theocratic. It could be that a Muslim country does not have Shariah implemented regarding penal matters and it is still a sin against God. This does not give Muslims rights to punish a person because they committed an offence against God. Shariah is a legal framework and people cannot simply act out as vigilantes because their religion says it is an offence against God and should be punished.

I personally like the 4 witness mandate set down by the Quran. It makes it nearly impossible to prove. On the contrary, people do misuse this restriction to wrongfully accuse others in tribal feuds and sht. But, corruption exists in all cultures and faiths.

Well, same thing as above. If I somehow came to live in a country where pedophilia or rape or murder or whatever were legal, I wouldn't be like, "ah well, they don't have the right laws but it's still a sin against God, I'll be chill". I'd freak the gently caress out!

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:11

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Cingulate posted:

Okay this is really hard for me to get my head around.

I have a few friends whose sexual behavior would, if I were to observe it, disgust me. For example, my siblings - I never ever wish to see my siblings have sex. Yet, this disgust is of course completely nonconsequential, because while it might be disgusting to me, it's clearly not a bad thing (but, in fact, a good and beautiful thing).
On the other hand, if I learned some friends of mine would not only desire, but repeatedly practice pedophilia, I would not only be disgusted, I would call the police and I'd also find it very hard to stay friends with them. I wouldn't tolerate that. I wouldn't have great evenings with them and simply ignore the pedophilia. I'd treat them like sick people who need help - extensive therapy - , and, first and foremost, to be stopped.

I would not pride myself on being nonjudgemental, I would not try to abstain from being evangelical, I would not tolerate this.

Do you see how what you said is hard to understand for me?

Well, the cases of abuse, physically and sexually, are cases that need to be investigated and are punishable. We should call the cops and have an investigation. The Quran madates that.

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted. Quran 4:135

I was speaking specifically to homosexual behaviour. We consider it a sexual sin similar to adultery. There is no victims, they are consensual, it is illegal by shariah and it is considered a sin.

Things like pedophilia or rape are not consensual, there are victims, it is illegal sex according to shariah and an egregious sin.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:12

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Amun Khonsu posted:

Well, the cases of abuse, physically and sexually, are cases that need to be investigated and are punishable. We should call the cops and have an investigation. The Quran madates that.

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted. Quran 4:135

I was speaking specifically to homosexual behaviour. We consider it a sexual sin similar to adultery. There is no victims, they are consensual, it is illegal by shariah and it is considered a sin.

Things like pedophilia or rape are not consensual, there are victims, it is illegal sex according to shariah and an egregious sin.

Okay, and this is congruent with your personal experiences? So on an emotional level, pedophilia feels roughly similar to murder or rape - you immediately feel it's totally wrong. And homosexuality is in a different category, and it doesn't feel wrong in the same way pedophilia does - you know it is a sin, but it does not e.g. anger you like murder or rape would?

Do you think there is anything in my own experiences I can relate to that? Because I can't think of an example of where I feel like this.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:19

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

Cingulate posted:

Okay this is really hard for me to get my head around.

I have a few friends whose sexual behavior would, if I were to observe it, disgust me. For example, my siblings - I never ever wish to see my siblings have sex. Yet, this disgust is of course completely nonconsequential, because while it might be disgusting to me, it's clearly not a bad thing (but, in fact, a good and beautiful thing).
On the other hand, if I learned some friends of mine would not only desire, but repeatedly practice pedophilia, I would not only be disgusted, I would call the police and I'd also find it very hard to stay friends with them. I wouldn't tolerate that. I wouldn't have great evenings with them and simply ignore the pedophilia. I'd treat them like sick people who need help - extensive therapy - , and, first and foremost, to be stopped.

I would not pride myself on being nonjudgemental, I would not try to abstain from being evangelical, I would not tolerate this.

Do you see how what you said is hard to understand for me?

The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia is that one usually involves mutual consent and the other exploits an innocent. There is a very different sense of urgency there.

Also, while I know some of my friends are actively engaged in premarital sex, I have never witnessed any of them doing it, so I can't run out and accuse them of zina.

Also, I don't view homosexuals as disgusting or abhorrent, and neither does God. It's the specific act of homosexual sex that is forbidden. It is, once again, a very different moral judgment. We judge an act, not a person.

Let's say I know two gay Muslims who live together, married in all but name. I can't assume they're constantly banging when the doors are closed. That would be unfair to them. I can only assume that they're two people who love each other, but still abide by God's laws, despite the temptation they obviously face.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:22

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

Cingulate posted:

Okay, and this is congruent with your personal experiences? So on an emotional level, pedophilia feels roughly similar to murder or rape - you immediately feel it's totally wrong. And homosexuality is in a different category, and it doesn't feel wrong in the same way pedophilia does - you know it is a sin, but it does not e.g. anger you like murder or rape would?

Do you think there is anything in my own experiences I can relate to that? Because I can't think of an example of where I feel like this.

Smoking weed? Harmless, recreational, victimless, but still a crime (in some places?)

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:25

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Cingulate posted:

Okay, and this is congruent with your personal experiences? So on an emotional level, pedophilia feels roughly similar to murder or rape - you immediately feel it's totally wrong. And homosexuality is in a different category, and it doesn't feel wrong in the same way pedophilia does - you know it is a sin, but it does not e.g. anger you like murder or rape would?

Do you think there is anything in my own experiences I can relate to that? Because I can't think of an example of where I feel like this.

Well, I dont know your personal experiences. I will add some thoughts of my own.

We are bouncing between belief in a moral code (Gods revelation on morality) and legal penal code (mans laws codified by scholars to govern a region), two very different outcomes in society and the reason why Islam can co-exist in non-Muslim countries without there being any deficiency in our religious practice.

Islam is a justice movement and justice should always be paramount in Islam. Rape, paedophilia, murder, stealing, fornication, adultery, homosexual behaviour, etc. are all sins to varying degrees of severity. Homosexuality does not involve victims. There is no urgency to come to the rescue of a victim as they are consensual and no one is being harmed. Islam mandates that we protect the innocent. So, yes, action to protect the innocent would be paramount. in the case of rape, paedophilia, murder, etc, of course we would go straight to the cops.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Dec 30, 2015

# ? Dec 30, 2015 03:46

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Zakmonster posted:

It's the specific act of homosexual sex that is forbidden. It is, once again, a very different moral judgment. We judge an act, not a person.

I don't view pedophiles as disgusting either, just the acts. After all, they don't choose to be born with these desires.
I do though find homosexual acts disgusting. It grosses me the hell out! Only I know I'm stupid for being grossed out by what often is an expression of nothing less than true love.

Zakmonster posted:

Let's say I know two gay Muslims who live together, married in all but name. I can't assume they're constantly banging when the doors are closed. That would be unfair to them. I can only assume that they're two people who love each other, but still abide by God's laws, despite the temptation they obviously face.

So imagine two gay couples. One of them IS constantly banging, the other just, like, play playstation all day and sometimes the one gives the other this look, and the other one knows, and then they just do this sad smile and look away. Like, we could totally be banging, but it's a sin so we'll never be happy.
What exactly is the difference? The word you've used here is sin, but what does that mean here?

Zakmonster posted:

Smoking weed? Harmless, recreational, victimless, but still a crime (in some places?)

The crucial concept is sin. But beyond that, not a good example for a bunch of reasons - for example, the mexican drug cartels commit torture-murder more horrible than anything ISIS put on youtube fueled with money from weed sales. We need something that is victimless, but to which I have a similar response as Amun (or maybe you) has(/have) to homosexuality.

Amun Khonsu posted:

Well, I dont know your personal experiences. I will add some thoughts of my own.

We are bouncing between belief in a moral code (Gods revelation on morality) and legal penal code (mans laws codified by scholars to govern a region), two very different outcomes in society and the reason why Islam can co-exist in non-Muslim countries without there being any deficiency in our religious practice.

Islam is a justice movement and justice should always be paramount in Islam. Rape, paedophilia, murder, stealing, fornication, adultery, homosexual behaviour, etc. are all sins to varying degrees of severity. Homosexuality does not involve victims. There is no urgency to come to the rescue of a victim as they are consensual and no one is being harmed. Islam mandates that we protect the innocent. So, yes, action to protect the innocent would be paramount. in the case of rape, paedophilia, murder, etc, of course we would go straight to the cops.

Okay, but what about the personal, immediate judgement of wrongness? Do homosexual acts evoke a feeling of wrongness that is on the same scale, albeit on a far lower level, as murder and pedophilia?

Can you think of anything you could imagine feels similar to me as homosexuality feels to you?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 04:06

Maoist Pussy: Feb 12, 2014; by Lowtax

Amun Khonsu posted:

Islam is a justice movement and justice should always be paramount in Islam. Rape, paedophilia, murder, stealing, fornication, adultery, homosexual behaviour, etc. are all sins to varying degrees of severity. Homosexuality does not involve victims. There is no urgency to come to the rescue of a victim as they are consensual and no one is being harmed. Islam mandates that we protect the innocent. So, yes, action to protect the innocent would be paramount. in the case of rape, paedophilia, murder, etc, of course we would go straight to the cops.

To me, this all sounds like a sales pamphlet, where you present a friendly and modish but unrepresentative pitch.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 04:20

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Maoist Pussy posted:

To me, this all sounds like a sales pamphlet, where you present a friendly and modish but unrepresentative pitch.

Well, considering that I have represented Islam on behalf of Islamic scholars from 3 major worldwide movements and organizations in the US in the media, universities, and law enforcement agencies, I'd say you are a little off base. But I am pixels to you and the internet is the great equalizer so believe what you want.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 04:27

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

It means they've done wrong by God, by doing something He doesn't want you to do. God, however, understands that humans are weak and prone to temptation, so He is quick to forgive, if you are really sorry and won't do it again.

Maybe this might make things clearer for you: I view gay sex to be as wrong as premarital/extramarital sex.

Not inherently wrong, but wrong in the eyes of God, and the special rules He laid down for us. I can't blame these people for engaging in sexy times because it's really fun (God even says so), but in the interests of producing a moral and upstanding society, God places restrictions on who we can have sex with. Everyone is expected to live up to those standards, but it's also expected that everyone will fail, because none of us are perfect.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 04:32

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Cingulate posted:

I don't view pedophiles as disgusting either, just the acts. After all, they don't choose to be born with these desires.
I do though find homosexual acts disgusting. It grosses me the hell out! Only I know I'm stupid for being grossed out by what often is an expression of nothing less than true love.
So imagine two gay couples. One of them IS constantly banging, the other just, like, play playstation all day and sometimes the one gives the other this look, and the other one knows, and then they just do this sad smile and look away. Like, we could totally be banging, but it's a sin so we'll never be happy.
What exactly is the difference? The word you've used here is sin, but what does that mean here?
The crucial concept is sin. But beyond that, not a good example for a bunch of reasons - for example, the mexican drug cartels commit torture-murder more horrible than anything ISIS put on youtube fueled with money from weed sales. We need something that is victimless, but to which I have a similar response as Amun (or maybe you) has(/have) to homosexuality.
Okay, but what about the personal, immediate judgement of wrongness? Do homosexual acts evoke a feeling of wrongness that is on the same scale, albeit on a far lower level, as murder and pedophilia?

Can you think of anything you could imagine feels similar to me as homosexuality feels to you?

I dont feel threatened by homosexuals nor look down on them. It is a lifestyle choice and legal in my country and the country I live in. At the same time, I would look down on perpetrators of crimes with victims such as paedophilia, rape or murder and actively fight against such crimes.

Homosexual lifestyle is their business not mine. Any sin (regardless what it is) is between them and God, not me and them. When there is victims involved, then it becomes everybody's business.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 04:38

Lassitude: Oct 21, 2003

What is the "end game" for homosexuals in Islam? Is the notion that they may be cured of their sinful impulses, perhaps? Or are they expected to simply remain celibate the remainder of their life? Amun Khonsu used the term "lifestyle choice", which suggests a belief that homosexuality is a choice rather than an innate to certain individuals and unchangeable, but is that the general consensus in Islam? That homosexuals are simply afflicted temporarily, and through prayer or other for of atonement they'll become heterosexuals?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 07:31

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

Lassitude posted:

What is the "end game" for homosexuals in Islam? Is the notion that they may be cured of their sinful impulses, perhaps? Or are they expected to simply remain celibate the remainder of their life? Amun Khonsu used the term "lifestyle choice", which suggests a belief that homosexuality is a choice rather than an innate to certain individuals and unchangeable, but is that the general consensus in Islam? That homosexuals are simply afflicted temporarily, and through prayer or other for of atonement they'll become heterosexuals?

Lifestyle choice is incorrect. We understand that homosexuality isn't a choice. As such, their 'end game' is celibacy. It's tough, and it's not fair because God made you this way (if you're the type of Muslim who believes that), but God also made some people to have crippling physical or mental disabilities. Not everyone's life circumstances are equal, and the understanding is that the harder your 'test' in this world, the better your reward in the next.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 11:28

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Zakmonster posted:

Lifestyle choice is incorrect. We understand that homosexuality isn't a choice. As such, their 'end game' is celibacy. It's tough, and it's not fair because God made you this way (if you're the type of Muslim who believes that), but God also made some people to have crippling physical or mental disabilities. Not everyone's life circumstances are equal, and the understanding is that the harder your 'test' in this world, the better your reward in the next.

So, if you had a gay kid, you would be totally fine with him/her living in misery and never finding love? Would you really want that for your own child, if all it takes for them to be happy and fulfilled is to embrace a more modern and liberal denomination of Islam?

Wouldn't you want to have (adopted) grandkids some day?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 11:45

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Lassitude posted:

What is the "end game" for homosexuals in Islam? Is the notion that they may be cured of their sinful impulses, perhaps? Or are they expected to simply remain celibate the remainder of their life? Amun Khonsu used the term "lifestyle choice", which suggests a belief that homosexuality is a choice rather than an innate to certain individuals and unchangeable, but is that the general consensus in Islam? That homosexuals are simply afflicted temporarily, and through prayer or other for of atonement they'll become heterosexuals?

Zakmonster posted:

Lifestyle choice is incorrect. We understand that homosexuality isn't a choice. As such, their 'end game' is celibacy. It's tough, and it's not fair because God made you this way (if you're the type of Muslim who believes that), but God also made some people to have crippling physical or mental disabilities. Not everyone's life circumstances are equal, and the understanding is that the harder your 'test' in this world, the better your reward in the next.

This issue of genetics is not resolved in secular society let alone among Muslims and Muslims do debate on the topic just like everyone else. So until the scientific data is solid, it is hard to say that either Zakmonster is correct or I am correct. Either way, Allah knows best.

From my perspective, Allah cannot be Just and punish us for something that he created as a genetic "handicap". All scholars tend to fall on the side of mercy and forgiveness with regards to handicaps depending on severity and some handicap people dont even have responsibility for sin because they are so physically or mentally deformed. Homosexuality is not a genetic handicap or physical or mental malformity.

This verse identifies it as a sin that requires a punishment for the acts of homosexuality.

"And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful." Quran 4:16

Allah only punishes sane people who have "accountability" for their actions. Those who "repent" are ones who turn from their sins towards the path Allah has said was the correct path.

Therefore, it is a choice no different than any other sin that requires repentance and there is a prescribed outlet for proper sexual relations, ie marriage between a man and woman.

One cannot repent from a genetic deficiency and therefore has no accountability to be held to. Allah automatically forgives the sins of people who are born with genetic flaws according to the severity of the problem and rewards them greater in the next life.

So, in my opinion, there is repentance and a remedy.

Edit to add: Also, celibacy is forbidden or very strongly discouraged (makruh) in Islam according to most scholars that I know.

"The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade �Uthmaan ibn Maz�oon to be celibate." (Sahih Muslim and Bukhari)

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Dec 30, 2015

# ? Dec 30, 2015 11:56

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

waitwhatno posted:

So, if you had a gay kid, you would be totally fine with him/her living in misery and never finding love? Would you really want that for your own child, if all it takes for them to be happy and fulfilled is to embrace a more modern and liberal denomination of Islam?

Wouldn't you want to have (adopted) grandkids some day?

I would love him just the same, even if dismayed by it and not approving of the relationship. Its his life. After all, he is part of me.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 11:58

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Zakmonster posted:

Not inherently wrong, but wrong in the eyes of God

I don't get this. So there is 1. inherent, objective morals, and 2. parallel to that, and possibly partially, but not wholly overlapping, God's morals.

So God can actually be wrong about morals? Because "in disagreement with what is inherently X" => "being wrong about X".

And of course, there's also 3. your own morals. How do you deal with sometimes, you having (been created with) a strong sense that something is good/bad, but knowing/assuming God thinks the opposite?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 12:16

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Amun Khonsu posted:

I dont feel threatened by homosexuals nor look down on them. It is a lifestyle choice and legal in my country and the country I live in. At the same time, I would look down on perpetrators of crimes with victims such as paedophilia, rape or murder and actively fight against such crimes.

Homosexual lifestyle is their business not mine. Any sin (regardless what it is) is between them and God, not me and them. When there is victims involved, then it becomes everybody's business.

So somebody choosing to act sinfully does in no way change how you think about that person, if it is amongst the sins that do not harm anyone?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 12:19

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

waitwhatno posted:

So, if you had a gay kid, you would be totally fine with him/her living in misery and never finding love? Would you really want that for your own child, if all it takes for them to be happy and fulfilled is to embrace a more modern and liberal denomination of Islam?

Wouldn't you want to have (adopted) grandkids some day?

Oh he can find love and be in a relationship with someone, as long as that relationship involves no sex.

Cingulate posted:

So somebody choosing to act sinfully does in no way change how you think about that person, if it is amongst the sins that do not harm anyone?

Yes. Humans are weak and we will sin. God can forgive those sins, so why can't we? What gives us the right to judge other people, knowing that our own lives are not perfect?

Cingulate posted:

I don't get this. So there is 1. inherent, objective morals, and 2. parallel to that, and possibly partially, but not wholly overlapping, God's morals.

So God can actually be wrong about morals? Because "in disagreement with what is inherently X" => "being wrong about X".

And of course, there's also 3. your own morals. How do you deal with sometimes, you having (been created with) a strong sense that something is good/bad, but knowing/assuming God thinks the opposite?

No, you still don't get it. It's like eating pork or drinking beer. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but God says no because I want the Muslim society to be this specific way, so don't do it. And all though we can all agree that bacon is awesome and there's nothing wrong with a couple of drinks after work, I have never done either of those things because God forbade me from doing it. The same for gay/premarital/extramarital sex. It's a fun activity, but God says no.

Not all the rules are about morality, and just because God forbade it, doesn't mean it's inherently immoral. Like we can't eat amphibians either, so that's totally random, but it's not like all amphibians are immoral.

Zakmonster fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Dec 30, 2015

# ? Dec 30, 2015 14:16

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Zakmonster posted:

Oh he can find love and be in a relationship with someone, as long as that relationship involves no sex.

Sorry, but I can't take this serious. If you say that you are allowed to outlawyer god and his laws, than you are just making poo poo up at this point. I can just as well claim that gay sex, while standing up, is totally fine, since god forbade LAYING with a man, not standing up. After all, god knows what he is doing and chose his words carefully. If he meant sex and not laying, then he would have said so. Who are you to argue with god, yadda yadda ...

# ? Dec 30, 2015 14:35

ashgromnies: Jun 19, 2004

Zakmonster posted:

Smoking weed? Harmless, recreational, victimless, but still a crime (in some places?)

I think the difference is that many Westerners think smoking weed should not be a crime, and many westerners move towards that. But you said that homosexual actions (or other Zina) can never be considered acceptable by Muslims.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 14:47

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

ashgromnies posted:

I think the difference is that many Westerners think smoking weed should not be a crime, and many westerners move towards that. But you said that homosexual actions (or other Zina) can never be considered acceptable by Muslims.

There are sects/denominations of Islam that are totally fine with gays. I remember that because they got lovely death threats from some fundamentalist shitheads and it was all over the news. I don't remember what they are called, but you can probably google it. There is nothing magic or exceptional about Islam and their hate of gays, compared to other religions.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 15:01

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Amun Khonsu posted:

Well, I dont know your personal experiences. I will add some thoughts of my own.

We are bouncing between belief in a moral code (Gods revelation on morality) and legal penal code (mans laws codified by scholars to govern a region), two very different outcomes in society and the reason why Islam can co-exist in non-Muslim countries without there being any deficiency in our religious practice.

Islam is a justice movement and justice should always be paramount in Islam. Rape, paedophilia, murder, stealing, fornication, adultery, homosexual behaviour, etc. are all sins to varying degrees of severity. Homosexuality does not involve victims. There is no urgency to come to the rescue of a victim as they are consensual and no one is being harmed. Islam mandates that we protect the innocent. So, yes, action to protect the innocent would be paramount. in the case of rape, paedophilia, murder, etc, of course we would go straight to the cops.

Would you call cops on someone who hosed a child, started wars and owned slaves?

# ? Dec 30, 2015 15:04

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 13:30

Zakmonster: Apr 15, 2010

waitwhatno posted:

Sorry, but I can't take this serious. If you say that you are allowed to outlawyer god and his laws, than you are just making poo poo up at this point. I can just as well claim that gay sex, while standing up, is totally fine, since god forbade LAYING with a man, not standing up. After all, god knows what he is doing and chose his words carefully. If he meant sex and not laying, then he would have said so. Who are you to argue with god, yadda yadda ...

Look, as far as I'm concerned you can't have sex outside of marriage. Do whatever lets you get through the day without having your dick inside something (barring illegal things). And if you do get your dick wet, don't tell me about it, I don't want to know. I don't go around telling my parents each time I jerk off (which, btw, isn't allowed either).

"Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

So yeah, I do think you can be in a gay relationship that involves no sexual activity of any kind. Much in that same way I can have a girlfriend but not have any kind of sexual activity with her. So if my theoretical gay son lived with another man, I'm just going to assume that both of them are and forever will be virgins and love them anyway.

ashgromnies posted:

I think the difference is that many Westerners think smoking weed should not be a crime, and many westerners move towards that. But you said that homosexual actions (or other Zina) can never be considered acceptable by Muslims.

Good point, didn't think about it that way. But what I was trying to get at was the fact that while smoking weed/gay sex is a crime in your state/religion, you're not that much of a judge-y dickhead to call the cops on someone if you knew he was engaging in weed-smoking/gay sex.

And whether zina is considered acceptable by Muslims really depends on their surrounding culture/environment. More liberal/progressive nations sorta look the other way. There's a family friend (Muslim) who had a shotgun wedding. Parents were disappointed, but the relationship was solid, and now they're happy they have a grandkid.

# ? Dec 30, 2015 15:07

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