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This argument is worse than being in the Sarlaac pit, slowly digested over 10,000 years.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:56
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ImpAtom posted:I will say that at bare minimum I'm pretty sure the idea of someone suffering and dying, even if they know that their physical body is merely a container for a soul and something greater awaits them after death, is still considered a sacrifice. Well, that's because most religions don't reject the body altogether. Early Pauline Christianity did, and glorified martyrdom (much to the disgust of Gnostic Christians) but this disappeared. Anyways, regardless of this disagreement, I hope we can both agree that Bad Moon posted:This argument is worse than being in the Sarlaac pit, slowly digested over 10,000 years. this guy should probably get zapped with lightning for being a whiner.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:58
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ImpAtom posted:You know what else is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself? Bad example (not that doesn't count anymore) but even if we ignore that part you didn't engage with any of the other points I made. There are still Yoda's words which are pretty clear about what the force is or isn't and the force ghosts are also still a very convenient story telling tool. I mean if you want to integrate them into some bigger explanation then you open pandora's box. You'd have to ask why only certain people get to be force ghosts, why they chose to become force ghosts when they did (and not earlier for example because training Luke could have been easiert for Yoda if he had been just a ghost who could show up at whatever time and place he chooses to be), why no other force ghosts show up (there were plenty of Jedi before Yoda/Obi-Wan), why none of those ghosts warned Yoda and the other Jedi about Sidious and so on. There really can't be satisfying answers to such questions and that's why the OT never even tries to answer them and why I argue that it doesn't make sense to overanalyse them (they weren't meant to be a representation on how space religion/Jedi philosophy works in the literal sense). quote:The physical not being important to the force doesn't mean it isn't important to Luke. Luke being very strongly connected to the physical is why he has that problem in the first place. Luke's problem isn't being grounded in the physical world, it's about his doubts that there is an energy/force that goes beyond it. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 18:59
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ImpAtom posted:You know what else is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself? Not anymore, for whatever it's worth. I mean if you want to discount canon explanations for things, feel free, but in that case, any other explanation is basically the equivalent of your own "head canon"
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Dec 29, 2015 18:59
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Effectronica posted:Well, that's because most religions don't reject the body altogether. Early Pauline Christianity did, and glorified martyrdom (much to the disgust of Gnostic Christians) but this disappeared. Anyways, regardless of this disagreement, I hope we can both agree that Yeah, I get what you mean there! LinkesAuge posted:So what? Whether we like it or not (and no I don't think the force ghost explanation in Clone Wars is really an improvement of the situation) it's still part of the world we discuss and gives more insight into the intentions of what is presented than random speculation. Disney purchasing the Star Wars license wiped out a vast majority of the Star Wars EU. I understand what you're saying on a broad scale but, especially in the wake of that, anything that isn't in the films really kind of needs to be discounted just because it's pretty proven that it is unimportant and won't be considered by the directors of the films when working on it. I guess you can argue maybe the new EU will be more respected but I just really doubt it. Waffles Inc. posted:I mean if you want to discount canon explanations for things, feel free, but in that case, any other explanation is basically the equivalent of your own "head canon" Well, that is why I've tried to stick to things from the films, which is something almost everyone can agree on instead of the weird multi-tier half-erased semi-canon-sorta-canon stuff that is the EU.
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Dec 29, 2015 19:06
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, I get what you mean there! Again, the clone wars are not just some random EU stuff, it's a project Lucas was heavily involved with and is still considered canon and supported by Disney. quote:Well, that is why I've tried to stick to things from the films, which is something almost everyone can agree on instead of the weird multi-tier half-erased semi-canon-sorta-canon stuff that is the EU. But you don't really bring anything from the films to the discussion, you bring your conclusions/interpretations from them. I obviously do the same but at least I try to find sources in the existing material. I'm still waiting for something that makes the distinctions in Star Wars you use and I should mention that I consciously chose to ignore the prequels in this discussion despite the fact that they blur the line between matter and energy even more and thus bring the force and the "physical" even closer together in the form of midichlorians. I mean whatever you think about the whole midichlorians thing but it clearly shows the intention Lucas always had and that was never that the force existed outside of everything else and instead has always been part of the (physical) world or more specifically life (as Yoda already pointed out in ESB => life creates the force). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 19:17
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Imagine four BB-8's on the edge of a cliff...The force works the same way. I think the only official canon at the moment is the seven movies, the new Marvel comics, and I think there's a novel that came out recently?
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Dec 29, 2015 19:18
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ImpAtom posted:Well, that is why I've tried to stick to things from the films, which is something almost everyone can agree on instead of the weird multi-tier half-erased semi-canon-sorta-canon stuff that is the EU. There's no more multi-tier. When Disney came in they wiped the slate clean and now everything is equally canon between the new books, all films, any new video games as well as Clone Wars and Rebels.
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Dec 29, 2015 19:37
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Waffles Inc. posted:There's no more multi-tier. When Disney came in they wiped the slate clean and now everything is equally canon between the new books, all films, any new video games as well as Clone Wars and Rebels. At least until a film needs to contradict a book, then it doesn't matter.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:04
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Die Laughing posted:Imagine four BB-8's on the edge of a cliff...The force works the same way. No, The Clone Wars - at least, the later seasons - and Star Wars: Rebels are canon as well.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:11
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Jedit posted:No, The Clone Wars - at least, the later seasons - and Star Wars: Rebels are canon as well. They are canon in that the movies will never mention them or acknowledge they exist except perhaps some dorky in-joke reference. The new Jedi who appear in Rebels are not going to be recognized by TFA who made it pretty clear Luke was the last Jedi and he hosed up and got all his trainees killed.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:13
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the christmas special is still canon
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Dec 29, 2015 20:13
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The Star Wars visual dictionary or whatever it's called has so many strange demi-references to KOTOR. Taris is mentioned, but it bears no similarity to KOTOR Taris. Rakata Prime, same exact deal The Scourge of Malachor is referenced, but it doesn't seem to refer to Malachor V getting blown up as it did in KOTOR 2.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:35
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ImpAtom posted:They are canon in that the movies will never mention them or acknowledge they exist except perhaps some dorky in-joke reference. The new Jedi who appear in Rebels are not going to be recognized by TFA who made it pretty clear Luke was the last Jedi and he hosed up and got all his trainees killed. It's important to note that Greg Grunberg is in The Force Awakens playing a character from one of the new canon books, Aftermath. So that's at least one example of a character from a non-movie, yet still canon, piece of media showing up in the movies. It's a minor example, and he was probably named in the book after he was named in the script to TFA, but it's basically an example of something being canon in the movies having been officially first mentioned in a book. I say this because I'll be curious to watch the relationship between the movies and books/TV shows/comics moving forward, as this "everything is equally canon" thing is new.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:40
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I feel like lots of people don't get that there's no such thing as "EU" anymore. Every novel/comic/game/series/etc going forward is as canon as TFA is. For better or worse, the clone wars movie/series is the only non main film series thing from before the Disney acquisition that's still canon. Although apparently the non cgi clone wars cartoon doesn't count? Help me out here. Also I don't know where this leaves the old republic. Are they still making new content for that game?
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Dec 29, 2015 20:54
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I thought he was playing son of Porkins
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Dec 29, 2015 20:55
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Obi Wan said he was going to be powerful in death specifically in relation to Luke and the guidance he will give Luke in defeating Vader. If you don't understand that, then quit making video game references to fake win arguments.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:02
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thrawn527 posted:It's important to note that Greg Grunberg is in The Force Awakens playing a character from one of the new canon books, Aftermath. So that's at least one example of a character from a non-movie, yet still canon, piece of media showing up in the movies. It's a minor example, and he was probably named in the book after he was named in the script to TFA, but it's basically an example of something being canon in the movies having been officially first mentioned in a book. And Coruscant was first named in an EU novel. That is what I meant by dorky in-jokes. That dude is not going to do anything meaningful and is no different from the secret reveal that Ice Cream Man from Bespin was secretly saving everyone's life or whatever. sinking belle posted:I feel like lots of people don't get that there's no such thing as "EU" anymore. Every novel/comic/game/series/etc going forward is as canon as TFA is. I get it. I got it every single time a company has said it and it is never true. I will be perfectly glad to eat crow if Ezra from Rebels shows up in Episode 8, even if it is just him getting stabbed in the back repeatedly by Kylo Ren, but I just don't buy it happening. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 21:05
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sinking belle posted:I feel like lots of people don't get that there's no such thing as "EU" anymore. Every novel/comic/game/series/etc going forward is as canon as TFA is. As of the Disney buyout, the 6 movies and the CGI Clone Wars cartoon were the only things canon. Non CGI Clone Wars doesn't count anymore. And I think people, moving forward, will still use EU to describe anything not in the movies. By habit, mainly. The old EU is now considered Legends. The new EU has some books, comics, and TV shows in it. ImpAtom posted:And Coruscant was first named in an EU novel. That is what I meant by dorky in-jokes. That dude is not going to do anything meaningful and is no different from the secret reveal that Ice Cream Man from Bespin was secretly saving everyone's life or whatever. Ah, yeah, fair point.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:05
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ImpAtom posted:You know what else is a canon explanation sanctioned by Lucas himself?
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Dec 29, 2015 21:10
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Solenna posted:For those of us who aren't gamers, what incredibly generic looking video game protagonist is this and what did he do? That is Starkiller, he is Darth Vader's secret apprentice and the one actually responsible for founding the Rebel Alliance, whose symbol is actually his family crest or something.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:11
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Solenna posted:For those of us who aren't gamers, what incredibly generic looking video game protagonist is this and what did he do? Darth Whogivesashit
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Dec 29, 2015 21:11
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Darth Caucasion
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Dec 29, 2015 21:14
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ImpAtom posted:That is Starkiller, he is Darth Vader's secret apprentice and the one actually responsible for founding the Rebel Alliance, whose symbol is actually his family crest or something. Not anymore. Three cheers for the death of the EU!
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Dec 29, 2015 21:16
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Star Wars under Lucas was really running out of steam. I rolled my eyes when I heard you were playing as a clone of Starkiller in the sequel to be cheap with assets, but I thought they would do something cool and tie together Episode 3 with Dark Empire. Nope I read the wiki and the Emperor isn't even in the game  I swore off most star wars material with the abyssmal Death Star book. I'm glad canon dead.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:16
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Solenna posted:For those of us who aren't gamers, what incredibly generic looking video game protagonist is this and what did he do?
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Dec 29, 2015 21:17
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Snoke is Darth Icky You heard it here first. There will also be a character 'Supershadow' in Rogue 1 who will also be pivotal in Episode 8
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Dec 29, 2015 21:18
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McDowell posted:Star Wars under Lucas was really running out of steam. I rolled my eyes when I heard you were playing as a clone of Starkiller in the sequel to be cheap with assets, but I thought they would do something cool and tie together Episode 3 with Dark Empire. Nope I read the wiki and the Emperor isn't even in the game To be fair to the game (though I have no reason to be), the sequel ended on a pretty major cliffhanger, and may very well have gone in that direction for the third game. But that game never happened, so oh well. Those games are really stupid. They were occasionally fun though, like when you could use the Force to dangle a Stormtrooper out an airlock to kill him. That was fun.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:18
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You also could stun-locked by basic enemies. Why isn't that in Episode Seven JJ FRAUDBRAMS?
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Dec 29, 2015 21:20
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The amount of people who want to say Finn is related to Mace Windu or Lando hurts my head. Jesus. There's more than two black people in the galaxy.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:24
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There's three
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Dec 29, 2015 21:26
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Gorelab posted:The amount of people who want to say Finn is related to Mace Windu or Lando hurts my head. Jesus. There's more than two black people in the galaxy. There was a third but his x-wing got blown up at the Battle of Endor.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:27
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Finn is related to Ice Cream Cloud City man.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:27
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CelticPredator posted:Finn is related to Ice Cream Cloud City man. I think that dude was the only Hispanic in the galaxy.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:29
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I think that dude was the only Hispanic in the galaxy. Nien Numb There's five black people in the galaxy, two definitely dead, one definitely alive, the other two unknown. Battle of endor guy: dead Mace Windu: Dead Lando: unknown Alice Carrol, holographic softcore porn star: unknown, possibly just a program Finn: Alive
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Dec 29, 2015 21:33
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I think that dude was the only Hispanic in the galaxy. Is Poe Dameron not space-Hispanic enough or are you separating space-Latino from space-Hispanic?
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Dec 29, 2015 21:35
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Barudak posted:Is Poe Dameron not space-Hispanic enough or are you separating space-Latino from space-Hispanic? That guy was obviously Poe's father.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:37
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Gorelab posted:The amount of people who want to say Finn is related to Mace Windu or Lando hurts my head. Jesus. There's more than two black people in the galaxy. Mace Windu survived and had a son. He changed his name. Since he no longer was one with the Wind he instead became one with the land. Lando. He also got really fat so he took the name Calrissian after his love of calories. His son adopted his name and left off the Jr.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:39
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ImpAtom posted:That is Starkiller, he is Darth Vader's secret apprentice and the one actually responsible for founding the Rebel Alliance, whose symbol is actually his family crest or something.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:03
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I just watched Ep 2 today and I'm not sure if it was the random stream I was watching online or not but it felt really choppy at times like the scenes were just cut and transition so badly. Two people are talking and then suddenly the camera changes and it's still the same set location with the same characters (or maybe more!) but the feel of the scene just completely changes cause it was so abrupt.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:11
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