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It's unfortunate that Disney completely disregarded Lucas' ideas for this. I liked TFA enough but it does feel like something made by committee. Not always a bad thing I guess, but has anyone said what Lucas had planned?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:36
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It would have been a lot nicer if instead of being told that Rey dreams of Luke's island hideaway, we were shown her dreaming about it when she puts on the helmet at the beginning of the movie. At least, in my uneducated opinion.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:36
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Am I remembering wrong or isn't the Enya video part at the end close on an iris out? It does.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:40
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I love the way Rey runs.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:42
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:It's unfortunate that Disney completely disregarded Lucas' ideas for this. I liked TFA enough but it does feel like something made by committee. Not always a bad thing I guess, but has anyone said what Lucas had planned? I wonder if they really did or not. Michael Arndt was the guy Lucas brought in to write the treatment before Disney bought the company, and he's been quoted talking about things from the movie like he had a hand in them rather than his contributions being ignored by Kasdan and Abrams. Since he was Lucas' man initially and was brought on the project by Lucas, I wonder if the ideas are truly totally separate. I've also seen people characterizing Disney's Star Wars as not being about the Skywalker family the way Lucas has always envisioned the movies that are part of the "saga" as being(as opposed to the anthology-type movies, which are also similar to things Lucas himself considered making), but Kathleen Kennedy said recently that the non-anthology movies are part of the story of the Skywalker family, so clearly she wouldn't agree that the numbered Disney movies aren't about the Skywalkers.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:50
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Beeez posted:I wonder if they really did or not. Michael Arndt was the guy Lucas brought in to write the treatment before Disney bought the company, and he's been quoted talking about things from the movie like he had a hand in them rather than his contributions being ignored by Kasdan and Abrams. Since he was Lucas' man initially and was brought on the project by Lucas, I wonder if the ideas are truly totally separate. I've also seen people characterizing Disney's Star Wars as not being about the Skywalker family the way Lucas has always envisioned the movies that are part of the "saga" as being(as opposed to the anthology-type movies, which are also similar to things Lucas himself considered making), but Kathleen Kennedy said recently that the non-anthology movies are part of the story of the Skywalker family, so clearly she wouldn't agree that the numbered Disney movies aren't about the Skywalkers. They won't say how much Lucas is in the final script, because it's a no-win scenario. They'll imply it's not much to win over nerds.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:52
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:It's unfortunate that Disney completely disregarded Lucas' ideas for this. I liked TFA enough but it does feel like something made by committee. Not always a bad thing I guess, but has anyone said what Lucas had planned? The only information leaked was that he planned to bring back the trio and also to focus on new teenage protagonists. (Actually teenage, not just young like Finn and Rey.) Disney rejected the latter. That said Lucas' plans for the sequel trilogy where probably only lightly formed. He said in interviews a while back he didn't actually have plans for a sequel trilogy so the outlines he supposedly gave to Disney were at best a relatively recent thing. Edit: Honestly, it really sounds like they sort of waved their hands at acknowledging Lucas' input and then it ignored it. Which would explain a good chunk of why Lucas is pretty obviously unhappy with it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 22:52
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I'm sure Cnut can correct me on this, but I feel that the whole Kyle/Hux relationship is ripped from one of the drafts. The Valorum/Vader one, I think?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:54
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:It's unfortunate that Disney completely disregarded Lucas' ideas for this. I liked TFA enough but it does feel like something made by committee. Not always a bad thing I guess, but has anyone said what Lucas had planned? Lucas suggests that he had something different planned but hasn't and probably won't ever elaborate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8hQVlRgFlU
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Dec 29, 2015 22:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It is, in the sense of 'conforming to standards'. it's a star wars movie. what did you expect, some visionary genius that was free of the guiding market hand of hollywood? not even the original trilogy was free of that (see: ewoks). this 'conformity' argument is such bullshit and is largely just an excuse for people who don't want to like the movie to focus on because it's obvious and convenient. The way that Abrams balanced new characters and series tie-ins was done rather deftly and he's created atleast two new characters that have a soul that I would like to see develop in the coming films (Finn and Ren). There's conformity here, but there's also art and to present it as black and white is pathetic.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:10
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straight up brolic posted:lmao go masturbate to the frankfurt school if you're going to post stuff like this. Weird thoughts.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:16
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I never noticed how detailed Luke's black costume in ROTJ was. I always thought it was just a regular collared shirt. Ah, VHS.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:19
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I love that Lucas laments the fact that they didn't use his idea to make the film a family drama about the next generation when that's exactly what they did.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:21
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They never made the wipes noticeable enough? I hate this film!
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Dec 29, 2015 23:23
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quote:And why is it so unbelievable that the Star Wars Galaxy has more than one forest and more than one desert? It's not. But they need to have different personalities, or else what's the point of even calling it a new planet? There's lots of simple ways to make differentiate planets with similar environments from each other. Look at Tatooine, Geonosis, and Utapau. They're all barren desert worlds, but they all have radically different looks and feels:    The best-realized environment in the film was, unsurprisingly, the one that undoubtedly relied the most on digital technology to create it.  I like this. For the most part it's basically just Hoth, but it automatically feels different because it's also got its own thing going on aside from just being a snow planet. It's a snow planet that's been hollowed out and turned into a machine. The impossibly regular, perfectly straight geometric lines of the artificial metal valleys contrast, jarring and sinister, against the wholesomely chaotic fractal curves of nature's rocky mountains. If you want to see another simple, but effective, variation on the snow planet, just look at Orto Plutonia from The Clone Wars:  These pictures don't quite do it justice, but Orto Plutonia is consistently tinted a different shade of blue than Hoth, and the predominantly flat, butte-dotted landscape is consciously designed in order to differentiate it even further from Hoth--which, remember, looks like this:  Another good example of a unique snow planet from The Clone Wars is Ilum, the icy crystal planet:    Even though both Orto Plutonia and Ilum are snow planets, the show does a good job of making sure you really feel like they're different places from each other, and from Hoth. It's not just that their appearances are different. They actually have different moods and personalities.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:24
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In the original treatment by Lucas Rey was 12 years old and Finn was aged up to around 30 and their relationship was far more romantic.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:24
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Jerkface posted:In the original treatment by Lucas Rey was 12 years old and Finn was aged up to around 30 and their relationship was far more romantic. I know they look alike, but you're confusing Lucas and GRRM.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:26
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Steve2911 posted:I love that Lucas laments the fact that they didn't use his idea to make the film a family drama about the next generation when that's exactly what they did. I think you may be slightly missing his point. They included elements of family drama in the film, but the film itself is not a family drama. It's never really all that interested in what happened to make Kylo Ren the way he is. What exactly did Han and Leia do wrong? Why does their son hate them so much? I would think Han and Leia would have made pretty good parents after all the character growth they went through together in the OT. Adam Driver gives a good, Hayden Christensen-esque performance, but there's no real depth to the character, because we have pretty much absolutely zero idea where he's coming from. We're left to assume that he basically is Anakin Skywalker. So I guess Leia sent him away to train with Luke, and Kylo just couldn't handle being separated from his mother that way, and ends up blaming her, Luke, and Han for his emotional troubles? There's got to be a bit more to it than that, but we don't know, because the movie doesn't seem all that interested in explaining anything--I guess because focus groups determined that explanations are terribly boring. I guess there's a connection between Rey's feelings of abandonment and Kylo's? Rey was abandoned by her parents, yet clings pathetically to hope; Kylo was not abandoned by his parents, yet for some reason believes he was? That could work, but I'm not sure any of that came across like it should have. And that normally wouldn't be a problem, given that this is only the first act of the story and there's more yet to learn. But the dude already stabbed his father to death. That moment has come and gone already. It would have had more of an impact if we'd seen more of Kylo's backstory, and had a better understanding of his relationship with Han. But it's too late for that now. The thing is, J.J. had a mandate from Disney to hit the ground running. He had no time to deal with any of that boring family soap opera stuff. He had to get right to the juicy bits. Lucas probably would have taken his time carefully introducing all the characters and conflicts before ramping up the action to full throttle, but then Disney would have had another Phantom Menace on their hands, and they might have only made a billion dollars instead of a gajillion. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 23:42
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Cnut the Great posted:I think you may be slightly missing his point. They included elements of family drama in the film, but the film itself is not a family drama. It's never really all that interested in what happened to make Kylo Ren the way he is. What exactly did Han and Leia do wrong? Why does their son hate them so much? I would think Han and Leia would have made pretty good parents after all the character growth they went through together in the OT. Adam Driver gives a good, Hayden Christensen-esque performance, but there's no real depth to the character, because we have pretty much absolutely zero idea where he's coming from. We're basically left to assume that he basically is Anakin Skywalker. So I guess Leia sent him away to train with Luke, and Kylo just couldn't handle being separated from his mother that way, and ends up blaming her, Luke, and Han for his emotional troubles? Maybe, but the film gave me a strong impression that his character will be explored a lot more in the next two instalments. I don't think we need to see and hear every detail (which I also don't believe would immediately amount to a more deep or nuanced character, since it sure as hell didn't with Anakin), but at the very least whatever went down between him, Luke and Snoke will be explored. It's definitely too early to be throwing out the argument that characters are underdeveloped, especially if you're going to use the prequels as a favourable comparison.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:51
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f Star Wars was all I had access to as a child in terms of sci-fi I probably would become one of those crazy fanboys, but thankfully I had access to anime from very early on in my youth years that my mental balance is very stable. Seriously, if you have watched Akira, you'd realize just how sophisticated anime is and it blows away anything Star Wars would have to offer. A lot of people mention Ghost In The Shell, which has just enough of sexuality in the mix to draw in the western audience I suppose but I must say that Ghost In The Shell is not even in my top 10 anime, not even close, that's just how deep the world of anime is. Some anime is so disturbingly mature like Fractale that I wish it would challenge the system and submit it as a Drama category in the Oscars just to bitchslap the snotty Academy. It's not just the level of maturity and sophistication anime has, it's also quite original, entertaining, and visually fantastic. I would regard anime as the highest form of cinema art-form. But hey, me preaching about anime won't do you any good, you gotta go out and see it for yourself just how much you are missing. The recent one I would recommend to check out is Sword Art Online which is light and easy to get into anime for the first time yet appreciate it as much, but if you want the heavy stuff right off the line check out Guilty Crown in which the plot is so complex and twisted that you'll need extra oxygen pumped into your brain in order to comprehend everything, and if you want amazing visuals and a gripping drama that also has awesome mecha battles Aldnoah.Zero is the poo poo. Seriously, if you know anime like I do, Star Wars looks like it's something for little kids.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:52
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Fucker posted:f Star Wars was all I had access to as a child in terms of sci-fi I probably would become one of those crazy fanboys, but thankfully I had access to anime from very early on in my youth years that my mental balance is very stable.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:53
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Cnut the Great posted:I think you may be slightly missing his point. They included elements of family drama in the film, but the film itself is not a family drama. It's never really all that interested in what happened to make Kylo Ren the way he is. I would think Han and Leia would have made pretty good parents after all the character growth they went through together in the OT. I understand a lot of what you've said but I have no idea why you'd think this. They are two people whose kids are exactly the type I would expect, if not to fall to the dark side, at least to end up with some serious goddamn complexes resulting from their ex-princess rebel leader/politician/war hero/ect mother and their smuggler father who, at very best, probably has trouble settling down and living a normal family life. I mean even at the best and most optimistic reading of their relationship I don't think anyone expected them to settle down and for Han to get a 9-5 job and Leia to become a quiet everday person. Christ, just being the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia and the grandson of Darth freaking Vader would be enough to give any kid some massive complexes. Cnut the Great posted:Lucas probably would have taken his time carefully introducing all the characters and conflicts before ramping up the action to full throttle] No he wouldn't have. Lucas was right off the ground running in ANH and established a ton of existing relationships without needing to qualify them. That was part of the appeal of Star Wars. You didn't need the prequels to understand Obi-Wan and Vader's relationship. You didn't get the Luke/Anakin stuff until the sequel but that was because that idea hadn't even started to solidify until later, and certainly not Luke and Leia being related which is borderline an afterthought. You don't need 'buildup' movies. That is what leads to long tedious Marvel films that do nothing but exist to set up other films. A good film doesn't need that and Lucas knows that because he's actually extremely good at it. AotC has problems but you could watch it without watching PTM and not actually need slow introductions because AotC does all that within the context of the film. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 23:54
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quote:It's never really all that interested in what happened to make Kylo Ren the way he is. What exactly did Han and Leia do wrong? Why does their son hate them so much? I would think Han and Leia would have made pretty good parents after all the character growth they went through together in the OT. Adam Driver gives a good, Hayden Christensen-esque performance, but there's no real depth to the character, because we have pretty much absolutely zero idea where he's coming from. We're left to assume that he basically is Anakin Skywalker. So I guess Leia sent him away to train with Luke, and Kylo just couldn't handle being separated from his mother that way, and ends up blaming her, Luke, and Han for his emotional troubles? It's very interested, but the point is that we the viewer are supposed to wonder about it and let his performance resonate and provide clues, while hoping for explanations in the following films. Its all i could think about in his scenes! why is he this way? Thought Driver played it magnificently, and I'm certainly curious. Fucker posted:f Star Wars was all I had access to as a child in terms of sci-fi I probably would become one of those crazy fanboys, but thankfully I had access to anime from very early on in my youth years that my mental balance is very stable.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:57
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ImpAtom posted:I understand a lot of what you've said but I have no idea why you'd think this. They are two people whose kids are exactly the type I would expect, if not to fall to the dark side, at least to end up with some serious goddamn complexes resulting from their ex-princess rebel leader/politician/war hero/ect mother and their smuggler father who, at very best, probably has trouble settling down and living a normal family life. I mean, the way the dialogue goes, it sounds like that's basically what they did. Han didn't go back to smuggling and Leia to terroristing until after Ben changed his name and ran away to join the First Order circus.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:57
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I think leaving Kylo unexplored at this point added to the character. As a school shooter/radicalized terrorist, his motives being inscrutable add to the unease. Part of what makes these types of people such figures of interest is the constant questioning: why would a kid with a comfortable life and a promising future throw that all away to live a life of violence and hatred?
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Dec 30, 2015 00:00
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Phylodox posted:I think leaving Kylo unexplored at this point added to the character. As a school shooter/radicalized terrorist, his motives being inscrutable add to the unease. Part of what makes these types of people such figures of interest is the constant questioning: why would a kid with a comfortable life and a promising future throw that all away to live a life of violence and hatred? Finn's the school shooter.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:01
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Effectronica posted:I mean, the way the dialogue goes, it sounds like that's basically what they did. Han didn't go back to smuggling and Leia to terroristing until after Ben changed his name and ran away to join the First Order circus. Han went back to smuggling and Leia to terroristing but it's pretty unlikely they were living a mundane normal life prior to that. They also stress that they went back to the only thing they were ever good at. If neither Leia nor Han was happy with their life it's pretty unlikely than Ben was either.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:02
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ImpAtom posted:Han went back to smuggling and Leia to terroristing but it's pretty unlikely they were living a mundane normal life prior to that. They also stress that they went back to the only thing they were ever good at. Yeah, but that means they did some things they were bad at. Han released a couple spoken-word albums, Leia had a stint in politics. I mean, I think it would be pretty reductive to say "Ben didn't get enough love" when his actions seem to be motivated by some kind of ethical/ideological perspective- "finishing what you started", "thank you", etc.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:04
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Effectronica posted:Yeah, but that means they did some things they were bad at. Han released a couple spoken-word albums, Leia had a stint in politics. I mean, I think it would be pretty reductive to say "Ben didn't get enough love" when his actions seem to be motivated by some kind of ethical/ideological perspective- "finishing what you started", "thank you", etc. I doubt it is just about Ben not getting enough love, sorry if I implied that. I just don't think Han and Leia are someone I'd assume are good parents. The son of an anti-government rebel and a former illegal drug smuggler, even ones who are cool and heroic, is going to have an unusual childhood even if he isn't also the heir to an ancient legacy of violence and sent to learn from a novice teacher at Jedi Hogwarts. Like it's fun to imagine that these two wildly different people who are obviously in love had a good happy fairytale ending but it's not super-hard to believe that maybe they had parental problems.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:07
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Snoke seduced Kylo Ren by offering him a death stick, and things went downhill from there.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:28
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RBA Starblade posted:Snoke seduced Kylo Ren by offering him a death stick, and things went downhill from there. Obi-Wan knew all along...
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Dec 30, 2015 00:31
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quote:No he wouldn't have. Lucas was right off the ground running in ANH and established a ton of existing relationships without needing to qualify them. That was part of the appeal of Star Wars. You didn't need the prequels to understand Obi-Wan and Vader's relationship. You didn't get the Luke/Anakin stuff until the sequel but that was because that idea hadn't even started to solidify until later, and certainly not Luke and Leia being related which is borderline an afterthought. The whole conceit of ANH was that it was actually the middle chapter, and as a result was missing some crucial backstory. Lucas used this creatively in order to create a narrative that works from two different perspectives, with different stakes and emotional payoffs. I don't believe TFA does this, and furthermore, it wouldn't even make much sense if it did, because it's "Episode VII", a direct follow-up to "Episode VI". There aren't any missing prequel episodes. There's no justification for the conceit this time. And it's true that all the Star Wars movies start in media res--in terms of the plot action. But each episode (with the exception of TESB) has a clear beginning, middle, and end in terms of whatever story is being told. I feel like TFA had a fully-fledged story, but arbitrarily decided to lop off the beginning part and start in the middle, for no other reason than because it was more exciting that way. Lucas did that too, with ANH, but he actively compensated for the resulting deficiencies in the story in other ways. TFA, in my opinion, does not do this. ANH works as a set-up film for a stand-alone trilogy, and it also works as Episode IV of a six-part saga beginning with TPM. TFA does not work as a set-up film in its own right; it's playing double duty by trying to bring the audience up to speed on the previous six movies, while also trying to bring the audience up to speed on important story events that happened after the previous six movies but before the current one. I think it's kind of ludicrous that a film that's supposed to be part of a continuous episodic tale has to rely on flashbacks to tell its story. But that's a crutch Abrams has always leaned on. TFA also does not function as Episode VII of a six-part saga, for much the same reasons as above. Namely, that it is not Episode VII; it is Episode VIII. And no, having one set-up film does not inevitably lead to an endless chain of set-up films. It leads to one set-up film, which is almost deceptively named, because even a set-up film will ideally have its own self-contained narrative arc, just as TPM does.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:34
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Kylo Ren did not slaughter all the other jedi babbies, he recruited them into his "Knights of Ren" teenage badasses gang after receiving some encouragement from Snoke. The Knights of Ren cruised around recklessly on speeders and informed everybody that Tunnelsnakes Rule, and also probably revolted against Luke's teachings. Luke, upon realizing he had accidentally raised a bunch of baby Siths instead of Jedi, was forced to slaughter all of them with the exception of Kylo, who perhaps was just as surprised as anyone that his master would kill all his students. He pleaded for his life and escaped, leading to massive inferiority issues in his subsequent career. Luke, not only dishonored but now a mass murderer, retreated into utter seclusion, refusing to train anyone else. Also I'm not sure but the guy Kylo kills in Rey's vision almost looks like he is about to strike Rey with something, but he could also just be flailing from a lightsaber getting stuck through his chest.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:34
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Cnut the Great posted:The whole conceit of ANH was that it was actually the middle chapter, and as a result was missing some crucial backstory. Lucas used this creatively in order to create a narrative that works from two different perspectives, with different stakes and emotional payoffs. When ANH was first released in theaters it did not have Episode VI. It was only added in the 1981 re-release. Cnut the Great posted:TFA also does not function as Episode VII of a six-part saga, for much the same reasons as above. Namely, that it is not Episode VII; it is Episode VIII. Sure it does. You don't actually need to see those things. Not every film needs to have a film about its backstory. The first three films follow one generation. The second three follow another. The third three are set to follow a new generation. The fact that members of the old generation show up doesn't mean anything. You don't need a film about what Vader is doing between Episode III and IV to know what is going on. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 00:38
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Eh, Star Wars was still set in the middle of a story.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:40
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CelticPredator posted:Eh, it was still set in the middle of a story. So are a lot of things. You didn't need a film of setup for The Matrix to explain all its history and character relationships beforehand. You don't need a "The Marauders" and "Babby Voldemort" prequels to understand Harry Potter. The Hunger Games sure as gently caress doesn't need a prequel (though I believe it's getting one.) It is a film where characters have pre-established relationships and characterization and goals that exist before the film starts and begins in the middle of an adventure with a new character entering an existing world they were unfamiliar with or only dimly aware of it. It is a fair point to say that TFA ends more like ESB which I don't argue with (Finn remaining in a coma at the end alone sets that up) but that is different from needing setup for the relationships and character plot, not in the least because some of that is likely to be revealed in a sequel. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 00:42
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Cnut the Great posted:The whole conceit of ANH was that it was actually the middle chapter Cnut the Great posted:And no, having one set-up film does not inevitably lead to an endless chain of set-up films. It leads to one set-up film, which is almost deceptively named, because even a set-up film will ideally have its own self-contained narrative arc, just as TPM does. Does AOTC not require flashbacks (which the film doesn't even bother to give us) to show us the relationship between Anakin and Obi Wan as well as his training? No, the film jumps straight into the action and leaves us to assume the rest. All TPM sets up is how Anakin was found and how Obi Wan ended up training him. The important, interesting character development is left out. stev fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 00:44
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Is there no middle ground when it comes to the force? Seems like everybody that's on the dark side becomes a murderous rear end in a top hat. What about the more moderate jerks with force powers? Is it always such a slippery slope?
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Dec 30, 2015 00:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Weird thoughts. Way, way less weird than what you've been posting to be honest.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:50
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Steve2911 posted:Do you have a source for this that's from before 1977? The Star Wars doesn't feature Artwo and Threepio until scene 35, in a scene directly reminiscent of the opening of ANH.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:52
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