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hiddenriverninja posted:went back aways in the thread, didn't see this: This was fun, I hadn't seen this before.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:01
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Whether you liked them or not, the prequels were objectively bad movies. Every dialog scene is shot for coverage and then cut from master to OTS, back and forth, back to master, end scene. Every single one. Like a soap opera. There is almost no illustrative action or urgency in any dialog scene in the entire trilogy. Can you give more deets on "master to OTS"? I'm not that familiar with that terminology.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:01
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lizardman posted:What? Empire Strikes Back is about Luke going on a spiritual quest because he's become disillusioned with the rebellion. He doesn't like being a rebel, which is why he takes Vader's offer extremely seriously. If Luke actually believed in the rebellion, he would just be like "uhhhh no", like Obiwan was with Dooku. The entire frozen wasteland planet represents Luke's feelings on the matter. And pay attention to Hammill's acting. He's weary.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:03
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Mr Jaunts posted:Was Unkar Plutt all practical? I remember something about Disney making animatronics controlled through mo-cap, and I thought he looked really good Horrible picture of Rey, though: 
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Dec 30, 2015 20:03
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wyoak posted:Yeah, what? He's pretty committed on Hoth and we're explicitly shown the reason he splits off and goes to Dagobah You're under the mistaken impression that SMG has seen any of the Star Wars films.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:05
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Unkar wasn't a very good foster dad, if that was him in Rey's vision.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:06
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I do not actually exist.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:06
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Whether you liked them or not, the prequels were objectively bad movies. Every dialog scene is shot for coverage and then cut from master to OTS, back and forth, back to master, end scene. Every single one. Like a soap opera. There is almost no illustrative action or urgency in any dialog scene in the entire trilogy. No, we've gone over a poo poo-ton of ways the prequels weren't objectively bad movies over the last hundred pages of this thread and it's predecessor. It's okay to not like a movie without needing to attack it all the time. Let go of your anger: it will only lead you to the Dark Side.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:07
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Tender Bender posted:Holy gently caress how many words can Cnut write about how he needs entire films of backstory to understand very simple stories. This is insanely impressive even by Star Wars Thread standards. "A son kills his father because he doesn't like him for some reason." Did that sentence make you cry? I doubt it. I never said it wasn't sad. It's a cheap kind of sadness, though. It isn't very interesting, because it's just a concept. It's a pretty good scene with good acting, but it probably would have been way better if we actually knew the characters', you know, motivations. If we actually knew exactly what Kylo was struggling with, and why; how culpable Han really was, or might reasonably feel he was; exactly what Han might be feeling as he caressed his son's face one last time: Sympathy? Forgiveness? Understanding? Guilt? I didn't know wanting to know a character's motivations during a very, very emotionally significant scene was such a frowned-upon stance now. The thing that frustrates me is that there really was no reason we couldn't have been given more insight into exactly what happened to the Solo family. The point I'm trying to make is that there's not even anything to be gained by holding such basic information back--nothing! Nothing except more fuel for the Mystery Box. So why do it? Even if it really is such a minor issue, why decide to leave it out in the first place? If Kylo is such an interesting character (and I genuinely think he probably is), what is there to be lost by taking the time to show what makes him tick? If he's a good character, then that means showing his backstory wouldn't be boring, it would be interesting! In fact, I bet it would be infinitely more interesting than clumsily recapitulating the plot of A New Hope. And not just the plot of A New Hope, but the plot of A New Hope without even the benefit of having either a villain you can understand, or a villain you can feel good about hating. I can't hate Kylo Ren, because he inspires such pity in me. But I also can't empathize with him, because I don't know enough about him! Kylo Ren is like if you went back to 1977 and dropped evil Anakin Skywalker from Episode III into Episode IV in place of Darth Vader, with no explanation for his behavior. It wouldn't work, because the story isn't designed to accommodate that kind of complexity on its own. It doesn't have the right skeleton for it. Look, I don't think J.J. is a hack, I don't have anything against Disney, and no, I do not (currently) have George Lucas's geriatric balls stuffed lovingly in my mouth. I enjoyed the movie! I had a good time watching it! I'm sorry if I failed to reiterate that! I'm just saying: If you set out to re-make A New Hope almost beat for beat, while at the same time trying to squeeze a complex, morally ambiguous villain into the Darth Vader role sans any clarifying back story, you're going to run into some story problems! I'm not sure anyone could pull it off. Disney didn't have to hew so closely to the formula of A New Hope. They didn't have to, but we all know why they did it. They didn't do it because they sat down among themselves and came to the sober, reasoned conclusion that it would be the best way to tell the story of Darth Vader's fallen grandson. They did it because they knew it was a formula for guaranteed mass appeal. It's not surprising that secondary concerns--like the story--suffered as a consequence. I'm not saying everyone didn't do the absolute best they could given the parameters they set themselves for the project (and they actually did very well, because it's an entertaining movie!) but those parameters were an unnecessary handicap. I apologize in advance for all the words in this post, Tender Bender. If it helps you to get through it, you can try reading it in a mock whiny nerd voice. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 20:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Empire Strikes Back is about Luke going on a spiritual quest because he's become disillusioned with the rebellion. He doesn't like being a rebel, which is why he takes Vader's offer extremely seriously. Luke literally screams "I'LL NEVER JOIN YOU" the second Vader offers. The second time Vader proposes, Luke is at once still reeling from the revelation that his greatest enemy is actually his father, and he's also not really paying attention to what Vader's actually saying afterward because he's too busy looking below if there's any chance he could survive jumping off the ledge.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:10
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Steve2911 posted:And I don't really have an opinion about what you said. With those priorities, I can see why your view of the prequels relies on them being 'poorly received'. You should trust yourself to form your own opinion. Taking part in the discussion is scary, but trust me, it's better than trying to discredit folks you disagree with by deciding they 'sound angry'. You might even discover The Truth, which is that The Prequels are good.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:11
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Shageletic posted:Can you give more deets on "master to OTS"? I'm not that familiar with that terminology. When you're shooting cheap and dirty, like a soap opera, reality show or laugh-track sitcom, you shoot multi-camera. One is the master, which is usually a two-shot in the case of dialog scenes. Then you have an over-the-shoulder POV for each character so you can cut back and forth between their lines. It's very efficient, because you can get all your coverage in one take and move on. The problem is that you have to light and block for the entire scene, not just one shot. This seriously limits your choices, and creates a whole bunch of compromises that tend to make the show look cheap. Single-camera means more takes, more time and more budget, but it's part of what defines "movie look" vs "TV look". You have to light and block each shot separately, even in simple back and forth dialogue scenes. The upside is that the DP is free to actually compose and light each shot, without having to compromise for any other angles. Lucas shot almost all the dialogue in the prequels multi-cam, which is pretty much unheard of for a giganto-budget feature. The only fathomable reason I can think of is that he hates dialogue and wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:12
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lizardman posted:Luke literally screams "I'LL NEVER JOIN YOU" the second Vader offers. The second time Vader proposes, Luke is at once still reeling from the revelation that his greatest enemy is actually his father, and he's also not really paying attention to what Vader's actually saying afterward because he's too busy looking below if there's any chance he could survive jumping off the ledge. My friend feeding the  makes things worse. turn back now... while you still can
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Dec 30, 2015 20:13
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quote:You should trust yourself to form your own opinion... You might even discover The Truth, which is that The Prequels are good. Yeah, good....and boring!
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Dec 30, 2015 20:16
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lizardman posted:Luke literally screams "I'LL NEVER JOIN YOU" the second Vader offers. The second time Vader proposes, Luke is at once still reeling from the revelation that his greatest enemy is actually his father, and he's also not really paying attention to what Vader's actually saying afterward because he's too busy looking below if there's any chance he could survive jumping off the ledge. Well again, that's ignores Hamill's acting. Luke is not screaming because he LOVES THE REBELLION SO MUCH, but because he's conflicted. He's searched his feelings and knows what Vader is saying is absolutely true. The rebels are doomed to fail, and it is his destiny to rule the galaxy. So, all Luke can muster is this pathetic outburs, and a failed suicide attempt. He's trying to escape the truth, but the truth is inescapable.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Empire Strikes Back is about Luke going on a spiritual quest because he's become disillusioned with the rebellion. He doesn't like being a rebel, which is why he takes Vader's offer extremely seriously. And yeah he's weary, the entire rebellion is weary, they're stuck on an ice planet. The opening scroll tells you it's not exactly the best of times.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So, all Luke can muster is... a failed suicide attempt.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:22
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lizardman posted:There was a thread a few years back where someone watched Episode I for the first time without having seen the rest. The two things that stuck out to me about his (her?) reaction were that he actually liked the political stuff (he thought it was satirical) and he was annoyed that not once in the movie did anyone explain what the hell "the force" was. He seemed to like it overall, so maybe seeing the previous movies isn't a "requirement", but it didn't sound like it made for a comfortable introduction to the Star Wars universe. It sounds like they really wouldn't like the description given it ANH though (which is apparently sufficient for that movie): quote:"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." Like yeah, giving this or a similar line from Qui-Gon to Anakin probably wouldn't hurt, but you can suss out a lot of it from the existing dialogue.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:22
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computer parts posted:It sounds like they really wouldn't like the description given it ANH though (which is apparently sufficient for that movie):
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Dec 30, 2015 20:25
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:When you're shooting cheap and dirty, like a soap opera, reality show or laugh-track sitcom, you shoot multi-camera. One is the master, which is usually a two-shot in the case of dialog scenes. Then you have an over-the-shoulder POV for each character so you can cut back and forth between their lines. It's very efficient, because you can get all your coverage in one take and move on. Lucas has frequently described the prequels as exactly that, a soap opera, and is quoted as saying so as early as 1980 (I think Cnut posted this upthread). What you're describing is a feature, not a bug, or as Lucas himself might say, "it's stylistically designed to be that way."
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Dec 30, 2015 20:25
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Cnut the Great posted:
It's not. All we are left with is the assumed father/son relationship was at some point based on love, and that Han feels guilty somehow. Harrison is already listed as returning for VIII. Probably to show what happened.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:26
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Lucas shot almost all the dialogue in the prequels multi-cam, which is pretty much unheard of for a giganto-budget feature. The only fathomable reason I can think of is that he hates dialogue and wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible. One can assume that a giganto-budget production, one of the biggest of all time, can most likely built a set and lighting setup that function from two angles just as well. The actors get to play off each other more than if you're doing separate shots for each angle instead of having to react to dialogue someone else will come up with. Arguably, the worst-acted parts of most regular films are the 'reverse shots', where they have to do this. You can see it in ANH at times, like early conversations with Obi-Wan, where the actors are being fed the others' lines in a more straightforward way and can't actually react, which is pretty important in a performance. This is rectified simply by having the actors do the scene together and shooting both sides - it just requires you to come up with a setup that can manage this. Many films that inspired Lucas' work use multiple cameras. Yojimbo and (less sure of this one but also pretty sure) Hidden Fortress certainly did. RBA Starblade posted:Yeah, good....and boring! The Prequels are good and very good. Steve2911 posted:This is just silly. There was no way that he could have expected to survive that fall. The guy literally killed himself rather than join Vader. He hangs on for dear life and starts using his magic to call for help from Leia. It's a really half-assed suicide attempt.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:28
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wyoak posted:TPM does a weird overexplanation of the minutiae of the force (with mitochlorians and ratios of light:dark), which might be why someone who starts with that one has more questions about it. It really doesn't. All TPM says is that we as living beings are connected with other living beings to the Force. I also don't know where you're getting ratios of light and dark from.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:28
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Cnut the Great posted:It's a pretty good scene with good acting, but it probably would have been way better if we actually knew the characters', you know, motivations. If we actually knew exactly what Kylo was struggling with, and why; how culpable Han really was, or might reasonably feel he was; exactly what Han might be thinking as he caressed his son's face one last time: Sympathy? Forgiveness? Understanding? Guilt? IMO Kylo kills Han because Han is part of his temptation back to the light. We know that Han disappointed him (he says Han would have disappointed Rey as a father), but the main reason he's doing it is to help clear his mind, based on what he says and does in the scene itself. Of course this could be a dirty Sith lie, but based on the evidence we have that's how I look at it. It's okay to have changing opinions based on new information. Han approached Kylo because Leia asks him to/gives him hope that his own interpretation of Kylo being lost forever is not wrong. The emotional content of the scene is something you are supposed to gather from the acting in it, not have it read out to you. If you think the acting is bad that's a different ball of wax, but that's sort of the essence of all acting - reading faces, postures, tone, and interpreting on your own what it all means. And yeah, more details of Han&Co were doubtlessly reserved for a sequel, but it's not like it's impossible to form an interpretation of what is going on in these scenes without it. Think of the scene of Smeagol and his friend fishing and discovering the ring at the beginning of ROTK. Having this scene enhances our viewing, but it's by no means required to understand that Gollum is a violent weirdo who likes to eat people (we also don't need a full movie telling us what Gollum was like before he found the ring).
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Dec 30, 2015 20:33
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Dec 30, 2015 20:33
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wyoak posted:It's definitely a spiritual quest but I don't see any evidence he's disillusioned with the rebellion on Hoth - he only listens to Vader because, as it turns out, Vader's his dad. Vader doesn't say "Look inside yourself and realize that being a rebel kinda sucks," and in any case Vader's offer comes at the end of the movie. Well then you're literally ignoring most of the dialogue, the performances, settings, cinematography, themes, etc. - to focus on bare plot delivered through exposition. That's not uncommon. Many people are hardcore Star Wars fans and have no idea what's going on in the films. Before revealing that he is Luke's father, Vader says the following: "Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." Vader is pointing out that Luke is treated as unimportant and kept weak by the rebellion, and this means the destructive conflict will keep limping along, pointlessly. Luke will see more and more people die around him, as we are shown in the opening scene. Vader reveals that he and Luke have the exact same goals but, unlike Luke, Vader is not sabotaging himself out of fear.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:34
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Hbomberguy posted:Nah. 2001 A Space Oddysey is good and boring [Note: Boring is an aesthetic that is not actually a bad thing imo]. The thing is, I watched 2001 (on dvd) and Attack of the Clones (in theaters) as a child. I wanted to keep watching 2001. I wanted to get out of the theater already with Clones. To be fair though as a kid I did like Phantom Menace, and as a teenager I thought RotS was ok. Also rewatching 2001 for the first time in a while a lot of it went over my head even when seeing it again years ago. quote:He hangs on for dear life and starts using his magic to call for help from Leia. It's a really half-assed suicide attempt. IIRC a stat I read a while ago most people who attempt to commit suicide and survive almost immediately regret it.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:34
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computer parts posted:It really doesn't. All TPM says is that we as living beings are connected with other living beings to the Force. I also don't know where you're getting ratios of light and dark from.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:35
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:
Oh cool, thanks for the informative effort post.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well then you're literally ignoring all most of the dialogue, the performances, settings, cinematography, themes, etc. - to focus on bare plot delivered through expository dialogue. But yeah thanks for breaking down what Vader meant by 'ending the conflict'
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Dec 30, 2015 20:38
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:When you're shooting cheap and dirty, like a soap opera, reality show or laugh-track sitcom, you shoot multi-camera. One is the master, which is usually a two-shot in the case of dialog scenes. Then you have an over-the-shoulder POV for each character so you can cut back and forth between their lines. It's very efficient, because you can get all your coverage in one take and move on. This is a good infopost btw.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:38
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wyoak posted:The ratio thing was an exaggeration, but there's the council concern that Anakin has too much dark side in him, and the prophecy that he'll bring 'balance to the force' is front and center in the film (the Force is the driving...um...force....for the plot in that movie)- in ep 4 it's more of an immaterial thing that helps people block lasers and shoot missles into holes. "Too much Dark Side" means too much fear, which they attribute to him being too old to
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Dec 30, 2015 20:41
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RBA Starblade posted:The thing is, I watched 2001 (on dvd) and Attack of the Clones (in theaters) as a child. I wanted to keep watching 2001. I wanted to get out of the theater already with Clones. To be fair though as a kid I did like Phantom Menace, and as a teenager I thought RotS was ok. Yeah, who likes 2001 is a pretty good barometer for good film taste, IMO. And you're right about the suicide stat, suicide rates plunge when the means of suicide is made less easy to acquire.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:41
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computer parts posted:Two space wizards go on an adventure and pick up a kid who's great at Space-F1. What's not to like? Isn't that the heart of the issue? On its face that's a cool movie, they just completely failed at everything a movie needs to be good.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:43
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Filthy Casual posted:Isn't that the heart of the issue? On its face that's a cool movie, they just completely failed at everything a movie needs to be good. See, this is the type of attitude I'm talking about when I say the issue is not with people that bring up the PT. computer parts posted:What I'm saying is that there are certain elements of the PT that are positive, and maybe even better executed than the other films (TFA specifically, since that's the new one).
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Dec 30, 2015 20:44
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computer parts posted:"Too much Dark Side" means too much fear, which they attribute to him being too old to
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Dec 30, 2015 20:50
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I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with the belief that the core idea of TPM is good (an enslaved kid is freed and joins two space wizards who crash on a crazy planet and hit things with swords). I don't think that belief is incompatible with the belief that TFA's core idea is also good/better, while also bringing up the execution of both.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:50
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Lolin at the idea of someone watching the prequels and pretending to enjoy it just to prove the internet wrong.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:59
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wyoak posted:You said that Luke is weary of the rebellion when Empire opens. I'm saying that how Luke reacts to Vader at the end of the film is not evidence of this. You may not have watched the film recently. At the start of the film, Luke greets an enthusiastic new recruit with indifference. He watches his friends die in a pointless battle for an ice rock. He's beaten up and essentially frozen to death. Luke is reduced to a shivering wreck, who reaches out for Obiwan's spirit to guide him, but Obiwan is far away. By the end of the film, Obiwan will be completely absent. Something is wrong with the rebellion, so Luke goes to meditate in a swamp, alone. The guy he meets there berates him, tells him to unlearn what he has learned, tells him to abandon the rebels. Enlightenment means letting go of the conflict entirely. Then, at the end, it's revealed that even Yoda was hiding the full truth. Vader, accurately, explains that the only way to defeat the Emperor is for them to team up.
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Dec 30, 2015 21:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Kylo can't see 'force ghosts' because 'force ghosts' are simply memories. Kylo has never actually met Vader. Obi-Wan speaks to Rey, calling out her name.
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Dec 30, 2015 21:06
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