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I am no great meditator, but these are my thoughts based on what I've been taught. There is a tendency in novice meditators to mistake the sensation of the generation of new mental phenomena as the final result , which can lead untrained meditators to stop developing further insight. I commonly see a caution not to attach to things in meditation being given because sometimes it happens that for example someone will confuse themselves, thinking "oh, I see all these colorful lights, this must be rigpa" or "oh, I feel light and peaceful, this must be the great peace." Then, all future meditation becomes cultivating these sensations, pursuing a particular kind of mental phenomenon. There is no need to be rid of these phenomena or as is said to try to renounce them or something, but I suspect the cautioning not to "attach to them" is less about "don't attach to sensations in meditation" and more about "don't mistake the phenomenal results of meditation for Mahamudra." This is of course primarily pertinent to specific sorts of meditation. For example, if one is cultivating shamatha, then if when they arrive at a feeling of bliss they promptly begin going "oh, I've reached this point of great bliss, now I can relax" then they will problem lose their stability of mind, and become subject to sinking or some other distraction or downfall of meditation. This is why in Shamatha to Mahamudra the suggestion for beginning meditators is in fact to interrupt their meditation intentionally when they first achieve stability in meditative absorbtion, as the initial training should be to reliably reach this state, and abiding in it at first can result in sinking and losing it. Meditation's "mindfulness" is sometimes better rendered as "watchfulness," as it should be observant, recognizing phenomena as they come and go. If you feel blissful feelings or see colorful displays and so on and go "oh, this is it, this is the result" then that watchfulness becomes lost. But there's no reason not to, recognizing it as just something that is occurring, to maintain watchfulness and see that it, too, is just a phenomenal display. So yeah, while on the one hand it is important not to mistake temporary phenomenal experiences with complete attainment, I don't believe, for the very well cited reasons of Sutra above, that there's some sort of need to flee from those experiences or something. Just recognize that bliss happens, ticking clocks happen, birds chirping happen, these are all phenomena of mind - if you can use words for them at all, it's conceptual in nature, and so not the final result, but it doesn't mean "welp that's not the final result, if it happens you should avoid it like plague." I think you could say, that's like driving across the country and after 6 hours of driving, stopping in a town and going "oh, well, this isn't the final destination, so this place is garbage and I should find another way" then going back to where you started, something like that, yeah? Instead if you get to that town go "oh, okay, I'm getting closer to where I'm going," and just don't stay there too long, just get your fuel and maybe rest or stay for the night, and then keep going.
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Sep 26, 2015 17:33
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quote:So to sum up this long-winded argument, "be careful of pleasure in meditation or you might become attached to it" is a totally nonsensical thing to say. From the perspective of someone who has a good grasp of impermanence, anatta, and dukkha, and so on that is fine. Not everyone does. You're addressing a point I wasn't really trying to make in the first place, but I'll chalk that up to me using the wrong words in place of what Paramemetic said. I don't disagree with any of that, but I've also heard it from the mouths of monks who have stated, in various forms, not to let students get "hung up" (for lack of a better term) on jhanic absorbtions, or variations thereof. That is really just kind of the entire point I was trying to make. And whether or not you think that is even possible is a a point of debate that you can explore endlessly over at Dhammawheel if you really want to hash it out with people (and a handlful of monks) who have a good grasp of Pali. The idea that one can be attached even to the formless attainments, or at the very least "stuck" there is something I have heard Bhikkhu Bodhi himself talk about in lectures, so calling it nonsensical is kind of harsh. It is at least worthy of consideration.
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Sep 26, 2015 22:16
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Prickly Pete posted:From the perspective of someone who has a good grasp of impermanence, anatta, and dukkha, and so on that is fine. Not everyone does. You're addressing a point I wasn't really trying to make in the first place, but I'll chalk that up to me using the wrong words in place of what Paramemetic said. Prickly Pete posted:I don't disagree with any of that, but I've also heard it from the mouths of monks who have stated, in various forms, not to let students get "hung up" (for lack of a better term) on jhanic absorbtions, or variations thereof. That is really just kind of the entire point I was trying to make. And whether or not you think that is even possible is a a point of debate that you can explore endlessly over at Dhammawheel if you really want to hash it out with people (and a handlful of monks) who have a good grasp of Pali. The idea that one can be attached even to the formless attainments, or at the very least "stuck" there is something I have heard Bhikkhu Bodhi himself talk about in lectures, so calling it nonsensical is kind of harsh. It is at least worthy of consideration.
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Sep 27, 2015 09:17
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Rhymenoceros posted:Actually I wanted to make that point, because yesterday I felt it was really important to share My Opinion about this Important Point of Dhamma. It doesn't feel so important today. That's how I feel about half of my posts in this thread, so I understand. I'm just as attached to my views as anyone else, so if nothing else the differences of opinion are an opportunity to look at them closely. 
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Sep 28, 2015 06:20
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Prickly Pete posted:That's how I feel about half of my posts in this thread, so I understand. I'm just as attached to my views as anyone else, so if nothing else the differences of opinion are an opportunity to look at them closely. Or an opportunity to  at all opinions
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Sep 28, 2015 15:31
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Mr. Mambold posted:Or an opportunity to Whatever floats your dharma boat.
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Sep 28, 2015 21:12
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Prickly Pete posted:Whatever floats your dharma boat. When opinion dissolves, only dharma remains edit: did anyone have a super meditation during the lunar eclipse?
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Sep 28, 2015 22:10
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I want to see if i've got the right idea behind karma and reincarnation, and since i've got a philosophical fetish for metaphors, i'm going to give you all I got. I'm thinking it's kinda like this - everyone on earth is packed in an enormous, pitch black room. We all start out with a single knife in our hands, and we just kinda mill about until we get stabbed. Once we're stabbed, and we've got that knife in our bodies, we make a decision - am I going to try and stab back, am I going to pull it back and throw it on the floor, or will I just let it be and hope it doesn't happen again? Now if we stab back, we've got no real guarantee that we're even going to hit the one that stabbed us in the first place. But it hurts like a son of a bitch, so maybe we just can't think of it that way, and we just want to get that bastard back, so we stab. Now there's another guy that's been stabbed, but we've still got a knife in us, and then boom suddenly some other person we can't see has stabbed us in the back. Since we already decided to get stabby, we rip that knife out and thrust it in the general direction of the person who stabbed us again. That happens, over and over again, stab upon stab, until our body is riddled with knives, and we die. Now there's a new guy, might be us, might not, and when he gets stabbed, he pulls the knife out and drops it - the wound is still there, he's bleeding a bit, but at least the knife itself is gone. But in taking the knife out and dropping it, the end result is still that there is one more knife in the pool, so while he doesn't directly contribute to the stabbing, he's still fueling it by acting without thought. And eventually, he dies. And here's a new guy again, and this time, he decides he'll just leave it in and try to mitigate the pain as best he can. Maybe he grips the knife in his hand hard to try and get his mind off the pain, and that helps a bit. He's still getting stabbed all the time though, and soon enough, he too dies. New guy, same room. He makes the same decision as the last, no quicker than before, and no slower either. And this time, he gets stabbed a little bit less. He doesn't know this, but while his journey started in the same place he's managed to get a little bit farther. Another guy comes up, gets stabbed a little less, makes it a bit further. The cycle repeats and repeats, until eventually, a guy makes it to a door - he's still absolutely riddled with knife wounds, but he's just on this side of breathing, and he gets to the door, and he opens it, and it's pretty nice outside. Now the guy might just say "hey, i've been stabbed a lot, i'd really rather just get out of here" and hop out the door - or, he might think "hmm, well, it's letting the light in, so maybe I can get some people outta here before I die, eh?" And from what little understanding i've gained from the things i've read, that might be the difference between Theravada and Mahayana. I guess it's kinda hard to ask for feedback on this idea, after reading the OP. It would be stupid to be like "ok so i've solved it right???", or "haha wouldn't that be interesting???", so i'm kinda at a loss. I guess i'll just end it here and see how you guys respond.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:43
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klapman posted:I guess it's kinda hard to ask for feedback on this idea, after reading the OP. It would be stupid to be like "ok so i've solved it right???", or "haha wouldn't that be interesting???", so i'm kinda at a loss. I guess i'll just end it here and see how you guys respond.
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Oct 20, 2015 08:22
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If anyone is interested in academic writings on buddhism particularly with regards to historical and textual analysis, here is a link to an engrossing & seminal work of (relatively) recent scholarship by Steven Collins. He examines the concept of nirvana and what that has meant in the texts, how the pali cannon addresses it, how you see notions of nirvana change in later periods and how this relates to historical contexts. Its a large book to read on ebook, but you'd want to preview before throwing down on a copy anyway. http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Nirvana%20and%20Other%20Buddhist%20Felicities_Collins.pdf Their library link on that site also has a ton of other reading. http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/Library.html Cheers
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Oct 20, 2015 09:51
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Yiggy posted:If anyone is interested in academic writings on buddhism particularly with regards to historical and textual analysis, here is a link to an engrossing & seminal work of (relatively) recent scholarship by Steven Collins. He examines the concept of nirvana and what that has meant in the texts, how the pali cannon addresses it, how you see notions of nirvana change in later periods and how this relates to historical contexts. Its a large book to read on ebook, but you'd want to preview before throwing down on a copy anyway. Wow. I can't wait to tear into this. Thank you so much for posting. Also, do you happen to hang out on Dhammawheel? The person who owns/manages that archive is a regular poster there (at least I think they are. Someone has link embedded in their profile who happens to be very involved in early Buddhism research)
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Oct 20, 2015 18:03
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SubjectVerbObject posted:Tashi Delek, Quoting this in the hope to catch your attention, SVO. I apologize that I haven't been able to produce an SAL thread yet. I have started work on it, but there's a general lack of material and not much to sustain a thread at this point. I have been improving my ability to read Tibetan and started translating some things that have already been translated, essentially re-translating things that my Lama thinks are "off," fixing the language a bit and learning as I go. my conversational skill wanes a bit as I haven't much opportunity to use it, but that might be changing soon as I've been told I need to seek out instruction on a subject that is fairly obscure and the only nearby-ish teacher of it doesn't speak English well, so we'll probably be falling back and forth between the languages if it works out. SVO I would like to help somewhat with pronunciation of things and so on as best I can, what would help you most for me to compile? What kind of things would you like to see in an SAL thread? Also, today is Lhapap Duchen, the celebration of Buddha's return from the 33 Gods Realm, and a merit multiplying day. A bit late notice, but hopefully nobody killed anyone and it would be a good day to say some prayers.
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Nov 4, 2015 02:07
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Paramemetic posted:
Looks like I picked a great day to do my online First Aid/CPR training!
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Nov 4, 2015 05:22
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Paramemetic posted:Quoting this in the hope to catch your attention, SVO. I apologize that I haven't been able to produce an SAL thread yet. I have started work on it, but there's a general lack of material and not much to sustain a thread at this point. All is well, and given impermanence, I don't want to tie you down to making a thread for only one person. How about this: how did you go about learning the language, apart from the course you just took? Were there any web sites or books you would recommend, or was it just repeated exposure over time? I am finding that the more I read the liturgy, the more I recognize the words and can at least attempt to pronounce them as they fly by. The web is a little helpful, but one definitely has to be aware of the source of things. Some of the stuff I am trying to get the hang of is very tradition specific.
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Nov 4, 2015 15:51
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SubjectVerbObject posted:All is well, and given impermanence, I don't want to tie you down to making a thread for only one person. How about this: how did you go about learning the language, apart from the course you just took? Were there any web sites or books you would recommend, or was it just repeated exposure over time? Apart from a course it is very difficult. The most useful thing is most likely learning the alphabet as well as the rules for how pronunciation works within the alphabet in special cases. A lot of time when doing transphonetization people use different ways to represent things based on wylie or their knowledge of the language, without necessarily regarding how the pronunciation works. For example, I see a lot of "chig" for "one" (Tibetan: གཅིག་) But this is pronounced "chik" or "chi," the "g" simply is incorrect. Similarly, in Central dialect, vowels before the "N" letter always become front rounded (འོན་ "on" = "ön") and so on like this. If I find the time, I will type up the basics of pronunciation. I have been meaning to email you or contact you offsite to send you some things as well, you could send me an email at paramemetic at gmail (and let me know here if you do, I don't monitor that email closely) and I could send you some files and so on that would help. Or if you use IRC I'm usually in the #Elite channel on SynIRC. If you have particular prayers or anything you need pronunciation help with I am happy to read them and provide my own transphonetization, the comparison of the two might help. I've recently been doing a lot of compiling of pecha and prayer books, and for that project in order to keep it consistent throughout, I wrote my own phonetics, so I am also wondering if my system is any good. I prefer to use "k" instead of "g" at the ends of things that have them, for example, but in most cases they are not really pronounced in the English manner anyhow. Learning the alphabet is the most important thing, following which learning the rules about the prefixes and suffixes, headletters, and so on. Only with that would you be able to be sure about pronunciations off of the transphonetic stuff. Are you more interested in literary or colloquial? That also matters for learning some rules and so on (certain constructs in colloquial don't appear in writing, and a lot of written stuff never makes it to colloquial, and some things change meaning from literary to colloquial). If this is becoming tedious for the thread, let me know, it can go to another thread someday or to email or something.
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Nov 7, 2015 03:59
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Paramemetic posted:If this is becoming tedious for the thread, let me know, it can go to another thread someday or to email or something.
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Nov 7, 2015 12:21
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Rhymenoceros posted:I like reading these posts; it's inspiring. Me too. Keep em coming please. You're doing what I always liked to imagine I would maybe someday try to do with Pali, except I don't have the discipline and you're actually learning a living language. Really proud of you for tackling this and making it happen.
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Nov 7, 2015 20:18
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Recommending The Mind Illuminated by Upasaka Culadasa. I'm only a third of the way through but it's answering many questions I had about developing stable concentration. The book appears to integrate neuroscience responsibly and Culadasa's discussion of theory doesn't deviate from the shared orthodoxy of the mainstream schools. The author trained in Theravadin and Tibetan Buddhist (Karma Kagyu) and has taught meditation for 20+ years.
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Nov 10, 2015 17:06
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Popcornicus posted:Recommending The Mind Illuminated by Upasaka Culadasa. I'm only a third of the way through but it's answering many questions I had about developing stable concentration. The book appears to integrate neuroscience responsibly and Culadasa's discussion of theory doesn't deviate from the shared orthodoxy of the mainstream schools. The author trained in Theravadin and Tibetan Buddhist (Karma Kagyu) and has taught meditation for 20+ years. This looks promising, thanks. Does it lean more in the concentration/absorption direction as opposed to vipassana? I might just take a swing at this on Kindle. I have some giftcard money laying around somewhere.
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Nov 10, 2015 18:33
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I've got a couple of questions on the early stages of insight practice, if anyone can offer some advice. First, specifically regarding the insight knowledge of mind and body and the perception of the mental-awareness-of-physical-sensation (but also applicable in a more general sense)- is this something I should be applying effort to perceiving? What I mean is should I be making a conscious attempt to try and identify the mental half of this process or is it just something that will unfold automatically by paying attention to the bare bodily sensations without my intention? I'm mindful of unbalancing effort and striving too hard (I just try and note these desires as they arise) but I likewise don't want to miss something through incorrectly or insufficiently applying myself. Mostly I'm concerned that if I go looking for something I'm going to be tricking myself into seeing something that isn't there. What's the best way to avoid this and still apply the correct amount of right effort to the process? I'm doing Mahasi Sayadaw style noting meditation, which I've been doing for about a week now after a longer stretch of just samatha practice. I've also been making an effort to continue noting throughout the day as well as during formal practice, which is becoming easier to keep up in most situations. It's quite a bit harder when working at a computer and nigh impossible during conversation, but in moving about and performing day to day activities I can manage quite consistent noting if not at huge speed or precision yet. Formal practice is also gaining momentum, I look forward to it as the most interesting part of my day rather than an obligation to be filled and find my commutes to and from work as ideal time for half an hour of samatha instead of using my phone. I feel like my concentration is notably improving, during last nights sit I experienced a pleasant phenomenon of body-wide lightness/warmth/pleasure that I could almost see ebbing and flowing with my concentration. As I continued just noting it and moving on to the next sensation to be noted it pulsed stronger, when I got pulled into it at length/distracted/excited it noticeably weakened, going back and forward until I lost it altogether, but I noticed my noting (hah!) was speeding up considerably at this stage and there was less effort required. edit: oh! another question for anyone familiar with the noting-style meditation, I've read that you shouldn't stick with one object at length and rather be switching between different touch points, but what if one sensation becomes very predominant? I had an itch the other night (well dozens of itches but one moreso than the rest) where I just stuck on it and kept noting itching itching itching itching over and again since it was just far more noticeable than any other sensation even when I consciously switched awareness away to something else. Shortly it became sort of visualised as a knot in my minds eye and the sensation was like a cluster of soda bubbles popping and reforming constantly which I found terribly interesting while I stayed on it and then my timer went off. I thought this might be related to some kind of concentration state rather than insight as I settled into one object, should I try and keep my object changing or just go with it when I 'stick' for lack of a better term? Ayn Randi fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Nov 11, 2015 |
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Nov 11, 2015 02:27
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Ayn Randi posted:I've got a couple of questions on the early stages of insight practice, if anyone can offer some advice. First, specifically regarding the insight knowledge of mind and body and the perception of the mental-awareness-of-physical-sensation (but also applicable in a more general sense)- is this something I should be applying effort to perceiving? What I mean is should I be making a conscious attempt to try and identify the mental half of this process or is it just something that will unfold automatically by paying attention to the bare bodily sensations without my intention? I'm mindful of unbalancing effort and striving too hard (I just try and note these desires as they arise) but I likewise don't want to miss something through incorrectly or insufficiently applying myself. Mostly I'm concerned that if I go looking for something I'm going to be tricking myself into seeing something that isn't there. What's the best way to avoid this and still apply the correct amount of right effort to the process? I am not super well-versed on Mahasi meditation, but I used to listen to a lot of talks and correspond with a monk who was solidly in the Mahasi school and taught that style. He mentioned on a few occasions something that reminds me of your last statement - that of knowing the progression of insight beforehand (as laid out by Mahasi), and subsequently looking a little too closely for signifiers that one has properly reached each point. I don't know the specifics of the point you're discussing, or if you are working directly with a teacher, but I can easily imagine getting sidetracked by looking for the characteristics of the stages you are approaching, and getting caught up in the details. If I was going to take a swing at Mahasi style noting on my own, I'd probably go over the basics and then just work on that for a good while, note how things progress, and then maybe peek ahead to see if what you are experiencing is in line with his progression after some time has passed. Ayn Randi posted:I'm doing Mahasi Sayadaw style noting meditation, which I've been doing for about a week now after a longer stretch of just samatha practice. I've also been making an effort to continue noting throughout the day as well as during formal practice, which is becoming easier to keep up in most situations. It's quite a bit harder when working at a computer and nigh impossible during conversation, but in moving about and performing day to day activities I can manage quite consistent noting if not at huge speed or precision yet. Formal practice is also gaining momentum, I look forward to it as the most interesting part of my day rather than an obligation to be filled and find my commutes to and from work as ideal time for half an hour of samatha instead of using my phone. I feel like my concentration is notably improving, during last nights sit I experienced a pleasant phenomenon of body-wide lightness/warmth/pleasure that I could almost see ebbing and flowing with my concentration. As I continued just noting it and moving on to the next sensation to be noted it pulsed stronger, when I got pulled into it at length/distracted/excited it noticeably weakened, going back and forward until I lost it altogether, but I noticed my noting (hah!) was speeding up considerably at this stage and there was less effort required. Are you sitting samatha until you reach a certain level of concentration, and then moving on to noting? That sensation could correspond with access concentration. It sounds similar and is one of the vehicles that some people use to lead into various kinds of vipassana. Ayn Randi posted:edit: oh! another question for anyone familiar with the noting-style meditation, I've read that you shouldn't stick with one object at length and rather be switching between different touch points, but what if one sensation becomes very predominant? I had an itch the other night (well dozens of itches but one moreso than the rest) where I just stuck on it and kept noting itching itching itching itching over and again since it was just far more noticeable than any other sensation even when I consciously switched awareness away to something else. Shortly it became sort of visualised as a knot in my minds eye and the sensation was like a cluster of soda bubbles popping and reforming constantly which I found terribly interesting while I stayed on it and then my timer went off. I thought this might be related to some kind of concentration state rather than insight as I settled into one object, should I try and keep my object changing or just go with it when I 'stick' for lack of a better term? That is really interesting. I've always been told that one should note distractions accurately, and then return to whatever object you are using, but I feel like I have read about meditators using pain or distractions themselves as objects. I guess if you focus on them well enough you could obtain some kind of absorption or level of concentration but I don't know if that is a Mahasi suggestion. Are you working with The Progress of Insight? I need to read through it again. Very interesting stuff.
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Nov 11, 2015 05:26
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Prickly Pete posted:I am not super well-versed on Mahasi meditation, but I used to listen to a lot of talks and correspond with a monk who was solidly in the Mahasi school and taught that style. He mentioned on a few occasions something that reminds me of your last statement - that of knowing the progression of insight beforehand (as laid out by Mahasi), and subsequently looking a little too closely for signifiers that one has properly reached each point. I don't know the specifics of the point you're discussing, or if you are working directly with a teacher, but I can easily imagine getting sidetracked by looking for the characteristics of the stages you are approaching, and getting caught up in the details. If I was going to take a swing at Mahasi style noting on my own, I'd probably go over the basics and then just work on that for a good while, note how things progress, and then maybe peek ahead to see if what you are experiencing is in line with his progression after some time has passed. Yeah perhaps that's the most balanced way, "just do the practice" now and then some time later review progress off the cushion quote:Are you sitting samatha until you reach a certain level of concentration, and then moving on to noting? That sensation could correspond with access concentration. It sounds similar and is one of the vehicles that some people use to lead into various kinds of vipassana. I am, though this arose after I'd already switched from only focusing on the breath to doing general noting, although one kind of practice naturally flows into the other I guess! quote:That is really interesting. I've always been told that one should note distractions accurately, and then return to whatever object you are using, but I feel like I have read about meditators using pain or distractions themselves as objects. I guess if you focus on them well enough you could obtain some kind of absorption or level of concentration but I don't know if that is a Mahasi suggestion. Are you working with The Progress of Insight? I need to read through it again. Very interesting stuff. That's the one, it just clicked for me a lot more than for example body scanning or other insight techniques I couldn't really get a comfortable grip on
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Nov 11, 2015 06:31
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Mahasi sayadaw wrote a huge comprehensive meditation manual that is still not available in English to my knowledge. A guy in hawaii was working on a current translation and we had correspondence about getting it into a kindle format but I haven't talked to him in a while so it may be in limbo still. I should check in with him. I haven't tried that sort of vippasana but I really like the structured nature of his method. If I can get back to a regular practice I think ill give it a try.
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Nov 11, 2015 08:51
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Prickly Pete posted:Mahasi sayadaw wrote a huge comprehensive meditation manual that is still not available in English to my knowledge. A guy in hawaii was working on a current translation and we had correspondence about getting it into a kindle format but I haven't talked to him in a while so it may be in limbo still. I should check in with him. I believe that is the Manual of Insight which according to the amazon page here is scheduled for release in May of next year. I came by Mahasi's techniques through Ron Crouch's blog alohadharma, he's a hawaiian teacher so maybe it's the same person/people 
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Nov 11, 2015 09:17
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Ayn Randi posted:I believe that is the Manual of Insight which according to the amazon page here is scheduled for release in May of next year. I came by Mahasi's techniques through Ron Crouch's blog alohadharma, he's a hawaiian teacher so maybe it's the same person/people That is exactly the book I was thinking of. Great news. I'm glad he got everything finished. I was talking with Steve Armstrong who apparently is the editor and not doing the translation all on his own. Should be a great book.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:05
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Prickly Pete posted:This looks promising, thanks. Does it lean more in the concentration/absorption direction as opposed to vipassana? The block quote below is Culadasa breaking down the samatha (concentration/tranquility) vs. vipassana (insight) debate in the book. He states that samadhi (stable attention) and sati (mindfulness) are absolute requirements for the development of both samatha and vipassana, so it doesn’t make sense to link 1) samadhi exclusively to samatha and 2) sati exclusively to vipassana. To elaborate on the potential causes of confusion: following the Visuddhimagga manual, some have argued that certain kinds of of vipassana (insight) are possible without mastery of samatha. Accepting the MBSR usage of sati (mindfulness) as a catch-all term for any type of Buddhist meditation, modern commentators incorrectly substitute sati (mindfulness) for vipassana (insight) in the samatha vs. vipassana binary. Having confused these terms, they end up arguing that you can develop samatha (concentration) without sati (mindfulness) and vice versa; this is a position without canonical, commentarial, or practical/anecdotal support. Similarly, some people confuse samadhi (stable attention) with samatha (the set of absorptions reached through the application of stable attention), so they argue that you can develop vipassana without samadhi. That said, the book is mostly about developing the blissful physical and mental pliancy of samatha to the point that insight is attainable with minimal effort. This is clearly the approach that Culadasa favors, and he sets it in opposition to the “dry insight” Mahasi-derived* strategy of noting through the pain until you reach stream-entry, which can be stressful and burns some people out. Culadasa provides a few insight techniques late in the book and glosses over the progress of insight without description of the specific stages. I don’t consider this a major weakness because those stages are well-described elsewhere. *I’m not saying that Mahasi Sayadaw actually taught this. I finished the main text yesterday. Roughly 40% of the book consists of appendices, footnotes, and a detailed glossary, which I haven’t finished. Overall it’s the best single meditation guide I have read. I copied the following manually so there may be typos. I didn’t include the accents on some Sanskrit and Pali terms: Culadasa posted:For both samatha and vipassana, you need stable attention (samadhi) and mindfulness (sati).^22 Unfortunately, many meditation traditions split samadhi and sati, linking concentration practice exclusively to samatha, and mindfulness practice exclusively to vipassana.^23 This creates all sorts of problems and misunderstandings, such as emphasizing mindfulness at the expense of stable attention, or vice versa. Stable, hyper-focused attention without mindfulness leads only to a state of blissful dullness: a complete dead end.^24 But, just as stable attention without mindfulness is a dead end, the opposite is also true. You simply cannot develop mindfulness without stable attention. Until you have at least a moderate degree of stability, "mindfulness practice" will consist mostly of mind-wandering, physical discomfort, drowsiness, and frustration. Like two wings of a bird, both stable attention and mindfulness are needed, and when cultivated together, the destination of this flight is samatha and vipassana.^25 Popcornicus fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 21:17
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Popcornicus posted:The block quote below is Culadasa breaking down the samatha (concentration/tranquility) vs. vipassana (insight) debate in the book. He states that samadhi (stable attention) and sati (mindfulness) are absolute requirements for the development of both samatha and vipassana, so it doesn’t make sense to link 1) samadhi exclusively to samatha and 2) sati exclusively to vipassana. Thanks for that. I have read something similar, from Bhikkhu Sujato I think, describing various reasons for the belief or view of the sharp distinction between samatha and vipassana. I think he cited some commentarial interpretations that may have led to this view, but it does certainly to be a little convoluted, with some methods or schools claiming one side or the other. Interesting stuff for sure. Bhikkhu Bodhi has his own take on this which I can't find right now but I have it saved as a pdf somewhere. I'll try and find it.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:16
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Prickly Pete posted:Thanks for that. I have read something similar, from Bhikkhu Sujato I think, describing various reasons for the belief or view of the sharp distinction between samatha and vipassana. I think he cited some commentarial interpretations that may have led to this view, but it does certainly to be a little convoluted, with some methods or schools claiming one side or the other. Interesting stuff for sure. Bhikkhu Bodhi has his own take on this which I can't find right now but I have it saved as a pdf somewhere. I'll try and find it. Anyway, my own experience with reading the Pali Canon is that there is no distinction between samatha and vipassana in the sense of the modern debate. The most obvious clue IMO is in the Anapanasati Sutta, where it says that mindfulness of breathing fulfills the four frames of reference. The four frames of reference is the vipassana practice, but breath meditation is pretty clearly about samatha, yet it fulfills satipatthana. As a side note, I haven't seen any indication of such a thing as "the dark night of the soul" in the Pali Canon.
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Nov 13, 2015 11:40
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Rhymenoceros posted:As a side note, I haven't seen any indication of such a thing as "the dark night of the soul" in the Pali Canon. As far as I know, the only potential references are in the Vitthara Sutta and others with similar content, but they aren't explicit. Popcornicus fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 16:35
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Popcornicus posted:As far as I know, the only potential references are in the Vitthara Sutta and others with similar content, but they aren't explicit. So for example, for this sutta you can compare the English translation of the Pali Canon version with the English translation of the Chinese Agama version. Just a neat tool for anyone whose interested.
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Nov 13, 2015 17:08
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I think the idea about the distinction between two styles or methods of meditation has some basis in the suttas, but it certainly seems to have been sharpened by the commentaries and taken to the extremes we see now. I don't necessarily think practicing in that way is wrong, but it might not be as efficient maybe. The idea that the two sides are sometimes practiced both simultaneously and independently comes up in Yuganaddha Sutta I'm sure there are other references. The book I was thinking of that covers this topic is A Swift Pair of Messengers by Bhikkhu Sujato. It's an interesting read with good citations. Rhymenoceros posted:Unrelated to "dark soul of the night", at https://www.suttacentral.net, if you find a sutta and click on the sidebar and choose "textual details", you get an overview of versions of that sutta found in different traditions. I love that site. They use several of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations and the comparative abilities look really useful.
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Nov 13, 2015 18:57
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Hi, A few years ago I had the fortunate opportunity to be welcomed into a local temple as a photographer on Vesak Day. I understand a little about it, but was hoping that someone can tell me more about what it is, its importance, what it means to you and what are some of the most important things that are done to celebrate it. Perhaps after this, I have a photo of a cake made at the temple that I don't understand and maybe can post it to see if you can tell me about it. I feel ashamed to go back years alter and ask about it, but after 14 hours at the temple I just was too tired to think to ask at the time. :/ Thanks in advance!
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Nov 15, 2015 13:08
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Amun Khonsu posted:Hi, I converted after reading a NY Times article about vipassana meditation. I know Vesak is the festival celebrating the Buddha's birthday but I didn't know when that was without googling it. Since you posted your request here a month ago and no one has responded, you might ask in the Buddhism subreddit, which is good about answering these sorts of questions.
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Dec 17, 2015 22:59
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I also just straight up missed that post, but Tibetan Buddhists don't do Vesak as such, so I was hoping one of the non-Tibetan Buddhists would pick it up. I'd be interested in hearing about whatever answers they get on r/Buddhism. I also have never visited that and might look at it, though generally I don't get on well with Reddit (I cannot navigate it for whatever reason).
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Dec 18, 2015 00:20
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Hey guys, so I think I hosed up in my studies of the dharma and need some advice. A bit of context if it helps, I'll try to keep it as non-E/N as I can, sorry if it's still a little rambling. I grew up in a hosed up but loving family, with my parents, 3 sisters (I was the oldest) and I all ending up with some combination of depression and/or anxiety, with me being the only one spared from any anxiety somehow. My dad was by far the worst, with major depressive episodes throughout his life that developed into a severe panic disorder with fixed delusions of guilt that's been resistant to really extensive treatment. I can't remember how many times as a child and teenager I had to talk him out of sobbing panic attacks. All this lead to me creating some really maladaptive coping mechanisms, mainly self isolation and emotional filtering. I never really got any help with any of this but thought I was doing OK all things considered, being told I was my family's "rock". Anyway fast forward to a couple months or so ago, I started smoking weed for the first time, having tried to stay away from any drugs or alcohol my whole life due to my grandparents alcoholism being a factor in how hosed up my parents are. It helped me relax my ego and experience what was the closest thing to true happiness in as long as I could remember and allowed me to make some realizations about myself. The major one was that all my issues weren't really my fault, and that they were the result of a chain of causes beyond my control, and I realized I could choose how I let the past affect me and I entered a pretty manic state where my self esteem sky rocketed and I became really optimistic about my future for the first time. Having some vague knowledge of Buddhism I thought this sounded like I had developed some understanding of karma and jumped pretty deep into studying the rest of the dharma in a pretty chaotic and unfocused way with no meditative practices, which in hindsight was dumb, but that's been the only real way I've learned stuff my entire life. At this point three things happened that led to my current situation. First I helped my dad through one of the worst episodes of his life and learned he had resolved to jump off a bridge in 2 days. Then I had the first panic attack of my life after I accidentally smoked way to much weed when the resin in the pipe ignited somehow and it was like doing a dab while already really stoned and tired and stressed. It was the most terrifying experience of my life, with complete derealization of the world. During it I was convinced I had lost my mind, which has always been a fear worse than death for me due to my dad's condition. It took me a few days to come down from that but the experience was still at the back of my mind. Then I began studying the concept of emptiness for the first time, and this turned out to be a big loving mistake. All the fears from my panic attack returned and I felt totally lost and that existence had been drained of all meaning and purpose. I started experiencing the most crushing existential and nihilistic depression in my life and was constantly anxious and on verge of panic attacks, which were completely new to me. My family are the only people I really have to turn to but I was terrified they'd find out and it would cause them immense suffering, as I've always been the only stable one. I tried to hold it together and got through work and stuff while hiding it as best I could. I'm starting to improve after a few days, trying to tell myself that these are delusions and with further understanding I'll find peace, after all there's millions of Buddhists and they aren't all falling apart. Some videos by Ajahn Brahm have also helped a lot, particularly the ones on letting go of fear and another video covering the 4 ways of letting go, as I'm aware these fears are largely due to conditioned responses I should have dealt with before tackling this stuff. I've been focusing on staying present and reminding myself I can't know what the future holds, and trying to find meaning in life again. I'm aware I've basically had a mental breakdown, but I"m more or less stable now and really just want some insight from anyone who's dealt with anything like this before. I know I'll probably be told to seek professional help but that's not really possible due to my lack of insurance and lovely income. I guess I'd like to talk to a monk or something but I live in Seattle and don't really know if that's a thing here. Are there any Sanghas anyone is aware of where I could go and talk to someone? The ones nearest to me seem only to be open for scheduled classes and stuff. Mac Con fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jan 1, 2016 |
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Jan 1, 2016 02:02
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Mac Con posted:Then I began studying the concept of emptiness for the first time, and this turned out to be a big loving mistake. All the fears from my panic attack returned and I felt totally lost and that existence had been drained of all meaning and purpose. I started experiencing the most crushing existential and nihilistic depression in my life and was constantly anxious and on verge of panic attacks, which were completely new to me. My family are the only people I really have to turn to but I was terrified they'd find out and it would cause them immense suffering, as I've always been the only stable one. I tried to hold it together and got through work and stuff while hiding it as best I could. Yes, you have a pretty profound misunderstanding of emptiness, and the unfortunate thing is that nobody will be able to resolve that for you as such. It's a tricky concept, and intellectual understanding is radically different from recognizing, realizing, or experiencing emptiness for oneself. There is a reason that one of the root downfalls of a Bodhisattva is teaching emptiness to a mind that is not ready, and this is also a reason for the fundamental structure of the guru-disciple relationship. Basically, don't worry too much about emptiness. That you're not, by your own admission, sober and of sound mind, it's a poor priority to try to worry about sunyata when there are clearly other things you need to address in this life. quote:I'm starting to improve after a few days, trying to tell myself that these are delusions and with further understanding I'll find peace, after all there's millions of Buddhists and they aren't all falling apart. Some videos by Ajahn Brahm have also helped a lot, particularly the ones on letting go of fear and another video covering the 4 ways of letting go, as I'm aware these fears are largely due to conditioned responses I should have dealt with before tackling this stuff. I've been focusing on staying present and reminding myself I can't know what the future holds, and trying to find meaning in life again. You probably will find a lot more peace of mind as these things clarify. One of the most fundamental misunderstandings of emptiness is relating it to nothingness, or nihilism, or to take it as meaning nothing is "real." There are a few different schools with a few different ways of describing emptiness intellectually, and none of them resolve into nihilism. I think probably indulging a study of emptiness might not be best here? I mean if you have specific issues then we could talk turkey, the astute reader would recognize my lack of brevity is only exceeded by my lack of wisdom, but yeah, I think maybe emptiness isn't a thing you need to dwell on presently. Could be wrong. quote:I'm aware I've basically had a mental breakdown, but I"m more or less stable now and really just want some insight from anyone who's dealt with anything like this before. I know I'll probably be told to seek professional help but that's not really possible due to my lack of insurance and lovely income. I guess I'd like to talk to a monk or something but I live in Seattle and don't really know if that's a thing here. Are there any Sanghas anyone is aware of where I could go and talk to someone? The ones nearest to me seem only to be open for scheduled classes and stuff. In the Tibetan tradition there are both Sakyas and Kagyupas in Seattle. If you want to talk to someone about those things, that would be where I'd start. But I would caution that most centers refer people with acute problems to therapists and so on first. If you want to talk Buddhism, then talking Buddhism is good, but I would caution against trying to use a monk as a therapist. In terms of resolving the issue of emptiness for you, you should probably be willing to commit to a years long relationship with a guru if you really want to get into that. It's unlikely someone will just give you a pointing out instruction.
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Jan 1, 2016 03:46
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Mac Con posted:I'm aware I've basically had a mental breakdown, but I"m more or less stable now and really just want some insight from anyone who's dealt with anything like this before. I know I'll probably be told to seek professional help but that's not really possible due to my lack of insurance and lovely income. I guess I'd like to talk to a monk or something but I live in Seattle and don't really know if that's a thing here. Are there any Sanghas anyone is aware of where I could go and talk to someone? The ones nearest to me seem only to be open for scheduled classes and stuff. This is an aside, but I'm in Seattle as well, and I'm on Apple Health. If you need referrals to therapists that take Apple Health and/or are sliding scale, feel free to PM me. Take care, and Happy New Years!
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Jan 1, 2016 03:55
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Mac Con posted:Hey guys, so I think I hosed up This is good, actual practice. The deeper into the shithole you step, the better depth you can develop. You are forced to develop mechanisms to survive. That's what the dharma practice is. The realization comes that it's not a video game, it's RL. And RL is scary. Then when you awaken, you see RL is a video game. Paradox? Take a deep breath, count your breaths, do what all the other buddhists do, etc. So, good on you. You've had the literal poo poo scared out of you so bad that when you develop your practice, you'll always remember this. Ten years, fifty years from now, you should remember how you feel now. That should be a requirement for any seeker who thinks they're serious.
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Jan 1, 2016 04:21
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Thanks, guys. Yea I'm aware I jumped into this too soon and pretty arrogantly assuming I could learn it without any preparation or practice, and my biggest comfort has been realizing I must have misunderstood it. I'm absolutely willing to put in the work to learn it properly, but I guess I rushed it in hopes it would allow me to deal with the poo poo I'm going through. My intention in wanting to talk to someone more experienced was just find out where I should start rather than getting any insight into emptiness, which I'm going to set aside for as long as I need to. Plus side to this ordeal is that it's convinced me to respect the 5th precept. Thanks for the offer Qu Appelle, I'll hit you up.
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Jan 1, 2016 04:47
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Once we rewind this back to how to get started, you have options in Seattle. I would suggest looking at one of those places with the regular classes/practices. Go to one of those, and then afterwards ask someone about getting started. Maybe attend a few to get a feel if you're interested, and then if you are go from there.
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Jan 1, 2016 05:18
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