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I for one think the massive galaxy spanning empire should have simply up and vanished after their head wizard got killed by his bitch boy apprentice wizard. All of this prolonged fighting between ideologically opposed military and government factions, many of whom bear strong Religious over and undertones isn't at all realistic and feels like nothing but a convenient way to set up conflict for the sake of our new film and it's characters to me personally. I mean how dare they simply erase the consequences of ROTJ rather than show them to us over the course of this movie as they did not, I honestly believe, do. And also, could they have made Rey more of a Mary Sue?
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Jan 2, 2016 01:10
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:The only bad thing about AotC is the love scenes. Unfortunately they take up a good portion of the film Yeah; during the marathon screening I realized that I honestly really enjoy every part of AotC that isn't Anakin and Padme on Naboo. I'm even okay with their interactions on Tatooine and Geonosis; those have the benefit of happening in and around other stuff, so you're not solely focused on those two.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:11
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jivjov posted:Well, if nothing else, this still rules out R2, as he's an inorganic being who may or may not have true free will. Why do you think that droids might not be people?
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Jan 2, 2016 01:11
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jivjov posted:The universe as presented establishes that certain people can use the force and others can't. Han is not a force user, neither is R2. Only certain people can kill people with their minds and shoot lasers from their hands, yes. But the Force also flows through all things and binds them together and characters like Han, R2 and Luke (before his formal training) are shown to able to perform feats of incredible skill by acting in flow with it, even if they're unable to impose their wills on it to manifest unearthly powers
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Jan 2, 2016 01:11
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:The only bad thing about AotC is the love scenes. Unfortunately they take up a good portion of the film The only scene I loved was the diner scene
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Jan 2, 2016 01:12
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jivjov posted:Yeah; during the marathon screening I realized that I honestly really enjoy every part of AotC that isn't Anakin and Padme on Naboo. I'm even okay with their interactions on Tatooine and Geonosis; those have the benefit of happening in and around other stuff, so you're not solely focused on those two. Yup. I've said this a million times but it's just old fashioned corny dialogue that Lucas likes. I see why he did it but it's not surprising modern audiences don't react to it positively. He did the same thing in Red Tails.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:13
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jivjov posted:Well, if nothing else, this still rules out R2, as he's an inorganic being who may or may not have true free will.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:13
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The thing that I liked about the PT was that the emperor installed a cheat code in the clones to make them kill all Jedi and the Kamino people never mentioned this to anyone.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:13
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Or they could not do that, and ignore the horrible "the force is actually a bunch of little creatures that live in your blood" retcon that Lucas crammed into the worst movie into the series. Is someone strong with The Force because midiclorians are present? Or are midiclorians present because someone is strong with The Force?
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Jan 2, 2016 01:15
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:The only bad thing about AotC is the love scenes. Unfortunately they take up a good portion of the film I genuinely dislike every scene in that movie. I'm so sad Christopher Lee has to be in that movie. Count Dooku was on his way to a better Star Wars film and got lost and ended up in AOTC
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Jan 2, 2016 01:16
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Or they could not do that, and ignore the horrible "the force is actually a bunch of little creatures that live in your blood" retcon that Lucas crammed into the worst movie into the series. Midichlorians are scientific fact. You're like a climate change denier. porfiria posted:Nah he's right, and just making the point other people have made in a more idiosyncratic way. The fact that the movie is sort of an ep 4 remake only functions, in part, because large amounts of ROTJ are ignored--the Empire's still around, the opposition is weak, the Emperor's still alive, etc. Not all of that's true on a plot level, but it is the case for all intents and purposes of the film. That's the same conclusion I've reached. Lucas' six-film series was entirely about how the rebels won a conclusive victory, but lost it all because of their own failings. In Abrams' version, the Rebels never won - and, therefore, have no culpability. Hence: "Tatooine was not destroyed by the rebels. Jakku is a new, unrelated planet that has always been this way!"
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Jan 2, 2016 01:16
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Bongo Bill posted:Why do you think that droids might not be people? Because the films are pretty vague on droid personhood. The old EU went into it a bit..but just from canonical sources, R2 and 3PO are just really advanced iterations of Siri. turtlecrunch posted:The thing that I liked about the PT was that the emperor installed a cheat code in the clones to make them kill all Jedi and the Kamino people never mentioned this to anyone. One thing I really lament losing from the Legends continuity is the explanation for this. Order 66 was just 1 of 150 different contingency orders. The vast majority of them were listed as being able to be invoked by the Supreme Chancellor, the Jedi Council or the Senate. Order 66 alone was solely issuable by Palpatine. It was also one of the only ones that said 'kill' instead of 'capture or kill'.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:17
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midichlorians are the power houses of the cells
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Jan 2, 2016 01:19
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midichlorians had caused Shmi to have conceived her son, Anakin Skywalker.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:21
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It was a really brave decision of George Lucas to have the first 20 minutes of A New Hope star two high spec toasters uncomprehendingly spew noise at each other
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Jan 2, 2016 01:24
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R2 emits the brown noise in Episode VIII; causes Kylo Ren and a dozen Stormtroopers to void their bowels.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:25
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A Steampunk Gent posted:It was a really brave decision of George Lucas to have the first 20 minutes of A New Hope star two high spec toasters uncomprehendingly spew noise at each other Also interesting to watch them playing at torturing one another in VI, complete with Chinese Room screams!
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Jan 2, 2016 01:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's part of a broader point that I've been working towards: Vader is not searching for an apprentice at the start of TFA, he's long dead. quote:Force Awakens retcons things so that Vader was never crucified. Our villain literally talks to his dessicated skull/mask. His death and sacrifice hasn't been retconned at all. And was never a crucifixion in the first place. quote:The narrative is now fully linear, and keeps chugging along without an end in sight. quote:However, like Grievous, R2 doesn't need midichlorians because he can access the Force through technology. Real fans should recall that R2 entered a passive scanning mode before, in Attack Of The Clones (though Lucas makes a point of him being unable to detect the centipedes). Greivous is not a droid, he is a cybernetic being, an armor suit over a living person as shown in the movie and the series. Greivous is a version of Vader taken to the extreme. He's in that movie as a force user turned almost completely into a machine, as a sneak preview of Vader contrasted with Anakin who starts as fully human but ends up half machine.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:34
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computer parts posted:The Clone commander that Obi-Wan interacts with is called "Commander Cody" on screen by both Obi-Wan and Palpatine. I dont remember the movie enough to know if he did anything important, and everything related to Star Wars has this horrible issue where it's impossible to find a wiki article that doesnt bury actual movie stuff underneath layers of step-above-fanfiction EU material. So I'l give you that one dude I guess. He's just as confusing to name and identify then proceed to do nothing with. The closest to an unfucked description I can find is "helped Kenobi in the battle against Grievous, then turned on him after Order 66 was initiated", which is still more than "was a wookie, had an ammo sash"
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Jan 2, 2016 01:38
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Grevious had no force abilities at all.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:41
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NecroMonster posted:Grevious had no force abilities at all. Mistake retconned into theory, theory retconned into fact.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:43
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Neurolimal posted:I dont remember the movie enough to know if he did anything important, and everything related to Star Wars has this horrible issue where it's impossible to find a wiki article that doesnt bury actual movie stuff underneath layers of step-above-fanfiction EU material. So I'l give you that one dude I guess. He's just as confusing to name and identify then proceed to do nothing with. I rewatched PT recently and one of Cody's guys picks up Kenobi's lightsaber after he drops it, Cody gives it back to Kenobi and they have an exchange like "Cody do this" and Cody says "Have I ever let you down?" and Kenobi laughs and smiles. And then like two minutes later Cody gets Order 66 and tries to kill him. That's the extent of Codying in the movie.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:43
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NecroMonster posted:Grevious had no force abilities at all. I think he was force pushing some stuff. Some star wars people would tell you only simmering with the force can properly wield a lightsaber, buy that of course has never been stated or even shown to be true on screen.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:46
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Neurolimal posted:I dont remember the movie enough to know if he did anything important, and everything related to Star Wars has this horrible issue where it's impossible to find a wiki article that doesnt bury actual movie stuff underneath layers of step-above-fanfiction EU material. So I'l give you that one dude I guess. He's just as confusing to name and identify then proceed to do nothing with. It's a very constrained scope you're asking for. Basically I need a race or group with multiple (ideally dozens to hundreds) more or less identical beings, of which they then have a named character that acts unique in some way. Just based on having multiple identical beings, we have: -Wookies -Clones -Droids -Neimodians (sort of) -Geonosians -The Kamino people (I guess) -Gungans So there's only about 7 races in the first place that can be interchangeable and numerous. Of those, 3 definitely have named characters (Chewie, Cody, and Jar-Jar), one of them probably does (the Kamino people, and I think the Neimodians do too), and the other two are enemies that don't interact with the protagonists directly (at least not on a first name basis). So tl;dr - what you're complaining about is a relatively rare set of circumstances in the PT, but it still happens outside of Chewbacca.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:47
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Neurolimal posted:Mistake retconned into theory, theory retconned into fact. They actually tried to give him some but it didn't work. Stupid EU poo poo tho. He was able to use laserswords thanks to his cybernetic upgrades, but he still got his rear end kicked over and over in fights with anything more than like jedi noobies.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:48
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greatn posted:I think he was force pushing some stuff. It's explicit dialog that grievous learned lightsaber combat from Dooku. And he never Force Pushes anything.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:48
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turtlecrunch posted:I rewatched PT recently and one of Cody's guys picks up Kenobi's lightsaber after he drops it, Cody gives it back to Kenobi and they have an exchange like "Cody do this" and Cody says "Have I ever let you down?" and Kenobi laughs and smiles. And then like two minutes later Cody gets Order 66 and tries to kill him. That's the extent of Codying in the movie. So he plays a part in displaying that Order 66 is something more insidious than a voluntarily-supported coup, in that it immediately makes Commander Cody (who evidently had as much friendship-adventures offscreen with Kenobi as Anakin, exposition-wise) try to kill his general, who he is on good terms with. What does Chewbacca do again? All I can remember is that he's, well, in a treehouse, and then he's at Yoda's ship pod thing.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:49
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computer parts posted:So there's only about 7 races in the first place that can be interchangeable and numerous. Of those, 3 definitely have named characters (Chewie, Cody, and Jar-Jar), one of them probably does (the Kamino people, and I think the Neimodians do too), and the other two are enemies that don't interact with the protagonists directly (at least not on a first name basis). We get named Nemoidians in episode 1 (Gunray), and Kaminoans in episode 2 (Lama Su and Taun We)
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Jan 2, 2016 01:49
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Neurolimal posted:What does Chewbacca do again? All I can remember is that he's, well, in a treehouse, and then he's at Yoda's ship pod thing. When Order 66 comes in him and the other wookie help Yoda to an escape pod and then they URRRAAARRRUUUGHHHGH at Yoda when he's leaving. Would have been cooler if Chewie backslapped the guys coming to kill Yoda but I guess that would infringe on Yoda's coolness rights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4L_S9K-BkQ
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Jan 2, 2016 02:04
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greatn posted:At the end of ESB Han is encased in carbonite and Luke has united with Leia and Chewbacca and all decided they are going to save him. At the end of ESB every character is together and united in cause and conviction except the captured solo. You're misremembering things, and/or thinking literalistically. -At the end of Empire Strikes Back, the team is broken apart. Chewbacca and Lando leave to search for Han, while Luke and Leia head off in a completely different direction. -In Force Awakens, Vader's 'spirit' has been influencing Ren. Ren works for Snoke, but actually follows Vader. -Darth Vader is the Christ figure of Star Wars - the human incarnation of God. He died for our sins and thereby 'brought balance to the force.' But, at the start of Force Awakens, Max Von Sydow says the Force was never balanced. That's a retcon. -Reality isn't linear. -Grievous does not have the mutant powers caused by midichlorians. He uses prosthetic enhancements to do the same things.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:05
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jivjov posted:Because the films are pretty vague on droid personhood. The old EU went into it a bit..but just from canonical sources, R2 and 3PO are just really advanced iterations of Siri. The films are not vague on droid personhood. Droids are unambiguously people. If you disagree, I'm interested to hear why. jivjov posted:One thing I really lament losing from the Legends continuity is the explanation for this. Order 66 was just 1 of 150 different contingency orders. The vast majority of them were listed as being able to be invoked by the Supreme Chancellor, the Jedi Council or the Senate. Order 66 alone was solely issuable by Palpatine. It was also one of the only ones that said 'kill' instead of 'capture or kill'. You'll be pleased to learn that this is also still canon, as it was a plot point in an episode of Clone Wars. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 02:05
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Droids are missing two of the five parts they need to be people.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:09
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greatn posted:I think he was force pushing some stuff. To be fair I think that's mostly because except for Grevious everyone who's fought with them in the movies basically had some force poo poo going on, and Grevious kinda gets a pass with the whole weird cyborg monster thing. I kinda hope that even if Finn isn't even the least bit force sensitivey he gets his hands on a lightsaber again though.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:09
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Or they could not do that, and ignore the horrible "the force is actually a bunch of little creatures that live in your blood" retcon that Lucas crammed into the worst movie into the series. Please do not mistake my theorizing about Artoo to mean that in anyway I approve of midichlorines. It's the third biggest travesty of the series in my opinion, after Jedi Rocks and Jabba's tail.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:25
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Bongo Bill posted:The films are not vague on droid personhood. Droids are unambiguously people. If you disagree, I'm interested to hear why. While droids are mostly treated as "full" characters by the films, they are still mechanical beings. Perhaps I'm bringing my own biases in, but generally in fiction robotic beings are considered non-'people' unless the plot of the movie is about them being sapient. Then there's the battle droids, which are explicitly cannon fodder and not treated with personhood by anyone. So I come down on the side of 'uncertain', with a slight bias to the Legends-EU explanation of droids potentially developing true sapience, but that not being their default state. Bongo Bill posted:You'll be pleased to learn that this is also still canon, as it was a plot point in an episode of Clone Wars. I know an arc of Season 6 dealt with a having a programmed chip in clone trooper's brains..I don't recall them keeping the 149 other contingency orders. And honestly, I kinda don't like it being 'programmed' in, or rather, it being any further programming than just 'obey orders from appropriate chain of command'.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:33
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The robots in Star Wars feel happy, sad, scared and pain. They're pretty sentient.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:37
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jivjov posted:While droids are mostly treated as "full" characters by the films, they are still mechanical beings. Perhaps I'm bringing my own biases in, but generally in fiction robotic beings are considered non-'people' unless the plot of the movie is about them being sapient. Then there's the battle droids, which are explicitly cannon fodder and not treated with personhood by anyone. So I come down on the side of 'uncertain', with a slight bias to the Legends-EU explanation of droids potentially developing true sapience, but that not being their default state. Many characters in works of fiction that contain robots do not consider robots to be people, on the basis that they are machines and machines are not people. This is most typically a metaphor for the way that people in reality often do not consider certain people to be people, or do not treat them as such, but instead treat them the way they also treat machines. Star Wars belongs to this tradition. This fact has become somewhat obscured in recent decades as actual robots have begun to be invented. Robots in reality bear little resemblance to robots in fiction; artificial intelligence as we have known it is very unlike human intelligence. However this fact is ancillary to art, which remains preoccupied with characters who have human-like characteristics. Characters in fiction, even robots, are overwhelmingly people, because art is a reflection of human experience and humans have very little experience communicating with or understanding intelligences that do not belong to people. jivjov posted:I know an arc of Season 6 dealt with a having a programmed chip in clone trooper's brains..I don't recall them keeping the 149 other contingency orders. And honestly, I kinda don't like it being 'programmed' in, or rather, it being any further programming than just 'obey orders from appropriate chain of command'. The other orders were mentioned as a means for explaining why this one in particular did not arouse suspicion. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 02:38
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no actually its good that the clones aren't at all complacent in the betrayal of the jedi because it helps, ironically maybe, to humanize them, of course the movies proper never really touch on the fact that the clones are as much victims of these intergalactic slap-fights as everyone else
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Jan 2, 2016 02:40
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Bongo Bill posted:Many characters in works of fiction that contain robots do not consider robots to be people, on the basis that they are machines and machines are not people. This is most typically a metaphor for the way that people in reality often do not consider certain people to be people, or do not treat them as such, but instead treat them the way they also treat machines. Star Wars belongs to this tradition. 100% agreement on this. Jiv, if the droids aren't supposed to be depicted as sentient people, what do you then make of the scene in ANH where Luke and Owen (Remember this scene is also vitally the one that introduces us to the character of Luke) purchase droids being done in exactly the same way as slave auction scenes from other movies are done, like 12 Years a Slave? Why would Lucas even have that bit in the movie?
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Jan 2, 2016 02:51
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NecroMonster posted:no actually its good that the clones aren't at all complacent in the betrayal of the jedi because it helps, ironically maybe, to humanize them, of course the movies proper never really touch on the fact that the clones are as much victims of these intergalactic slap-fights as everyone else This is one of my favorite parts of The Clone Wars and Rebels series. Its kind of funny, the Jedi took an army of clones and encouraged them to take names and individualize themselves. The Empire took recruits, removed their names, gave them numbers, and did their best to remove individuality. Then the First Order went even further and started with infants and turned people into "clones".
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Jan 2, 2016 02:55
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