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Baracula posted:Gandhi was operating as the alternative to the real possibility of a bloody Indian army mutiny. That's probably not important though Likewise with the civil rights movement you had the black panthers effectively forming armed militias that would protect black neighbourhoods from the police etc.
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Jan 2, 2016 09:48
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team overhead smash posted:Thank you, that's it exactly. There isn't some kneejerk reaction like people have been claiming where Israel automatically goes "MUST BOMB 1000 PALESTINIANS" to any provocation, it's based on the context of the attack and what is deemed as appropriate based on a host of different factors including internal and external pressure and the efficacy of any such measures. I don't know how you got that from "they didn't bomb anyone because there wasn't anyone to bomb", but whatever. Sounds like if they dropped rockets from their arsenal they would only be able to make one-third as many attacks, with no apparent improvement in the success rate of attacking soldiers. The thing that stands against the arguments you're making is that if rockets weren't beneficial to anyone, why would anyone bother with them? Originally, you asked why Hamas launches rockets when you asserted that there was no benefit whatsoever to doing so. And I've answered you very simply - obviously Hamas wouldn't launch rockets if they thought there was no benefit to doing so or if they thought the downsides totally overwhelmed the benefits, so it naturally follows that at the very least they (and other Palestinian militant groups) believe that the benefits of rocket launches are worth the risks. Maybe you disagree, but that doesn't mean you're right and everyone else (ranging from internet commenters to the people actually involved on the ground) is wrong. The only thing that meets the criteria of being a "large attack" is Israel's invasions. Rocket attacks are also small attacks.
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Jan 2, 2016 17:39
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 JPost posted:Visiting the site of the deadly shooting attack on Tel Aviv's Dizengoff Street on Saturday evening, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to "increase efforts to enforce the law" in Israel's Arab localities while imploring the Arab minority to "show loyalty to the laws of the state." Yeah, this won't further entrench the existing divisions or embolden right-wing extremists.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:19
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Ytlaya posted:You keep saying this, but I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread or the last who has justified acts of Palestinian violence. It's always nice when other posters jump in to make my case for me: Ddraig posted:On the other hand, I think it's good that the Palestinians do fire rockets FlamingLiberal posted:Since they have virtually no other methods to fight back, and no way to do anything right now via the political process, it's really hard to blame those of them that do it. Ytlaya posted:But objecting to Israeli policy/actions is something that is actually legitimate independent of the fact that many antisemitic people also hate Israel. With all other examples of concealed racism, it is easy to explain why the things the racists in question say are dumb and without basis. But "Israel does a bunch of disproportionately bad stuff" is something with a bunch of hard evidence, and Israel is not synonymous with "Jewish people." That right-wingers ranting about "thugs" and tide of black on white violence can attempt to point to actual individual incidents of violent street crime notwithstanding, their occasional recourse to real data points does not mean the narrative they attempt to weave is one infused with racism. The irony is that there's certain people for whom that is perfectly clear, who consider themselves very conscious of the subtle manifestations of institutional racism and white privilege and racial bias in everything from policing to pop culture. But all of that nuance goes right out the window when Israel is involved. Then it's fine to talk about how those bloodthirsty, deceitful Zionists simply want to slaughter Palestinian children. And of course, any attempt to point out why that sort of characterization is problematic is met with the standard Tea Party-esque "How dare you play the anti-semitism card!" outrage.
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Jan 3, 2016 06:29
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team overhead smash posted:Seeing as the point being made is about large-scale attacks which result in thousands of casualties, exactly what the gently caress is a small scale attack that left several people dead supposed to matter in the context of the discussion being had? I hate to bring this up, but I believe you don't know what the word invasion means. Israeli cannot arbitrarily choose whether or not Palestine is a sovereign country. They entered a sovereign country with an army and a hostile intent. That counts as an invasion.
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Jan 3, 2016 09:11
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Israeli cannot arbitrarily choose whether or not Palestine is a sovereign country. Actually they can and do quite frequently.
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Jan 3, 2016 09:16
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A Terrible Person posted:Actually they can and do quite frequently. I think he meant that as at least a quasi-normative statement.
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Jan 3, 2016 09:31
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4747710,00.html After over a month in administrative arrest indictments have been filed against the suspected culprits in the Duma arson (where 2 year old Ali Dawabsha and his parents were murdered and 4 year old Ahmed was critically injured), no indictments were filed against Meir Ettinger who's also been put into administrative arrest shortly after the murder. No terrorism related charges apparently: quote:Ben-Uliel was charged with three counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder, two counts of arson, and one count of conspiring to commit a nationalistically-motivated crime. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 12:00
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FWIW it's only really worth looking at subtle nuances when there's even a token attempt to hide blind racism and bigotry. When official representatives come out and say that Miscegenation is wrong, that Israeli Arabs who show sympathy for other Arabs they should be denied rights of citizenship and outright denying the humanity and comparing people to rats and diseases it's really hard to find any semblance of nuance or other interpretations in that. This isn't dog whistle racism, this is a megaphone.
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Jan 3, 2016 13:52
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A Terrible Person posted:Actually they can and do quite frequently. Palestine's sovereignty is Schroedinger's Cat except you open the box by bombing it.
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Jan 3, 2016 16:55
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Main Paineframe posted:The thing that stands against the arguments you're making is that if rockets weren't beneficial to anyone, why would anyone bother with them? Originally, you asked why Hamas launches rockets when you asserted that there was no benefit whatsoever to doing so. And I've answered you very simply - obviously Hamas wouldn't launch rockets if they thought there was no benefit to doing so or if they thought the downsides totally overwhelmed the benefits, so it naturally follows that at the very least they (and other Palestinian militant groups) believe that the benefits of rocket launches are worth the risks. Maybe you disagree, but that doesn't mean you're right and everyone else (ranging from internet commenters to the people actually involved on the ground) is wrong. Some people seem to think that being oppressed gives your side carte blanche to ignore certain parts of the laws of war, I disagree. Dead Cosmonaut posted:I hate to bring this up, but
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Jan 3, 2016 21:25
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Dead Reckoning posted:I think TOS is arguing that rocket fire is useless from a military and strategic perspective, and only serves to harden those factions opposed to a durable peace. Hamas launches rockets because they consider killing and terrorizing Israeli civilians a worthwhile goal, and they don't see Israeli retaliation as a downside. They are pretty open about this. Arguing that Hamas' logic is good and correct is a rather queasy idea. I'd also note that Palestinian suicide/knife/etc attacks have overwhelmingly targeted civilians. Terrorizing Israel as a strategy is a lot larger than Hamas. The onus comes down on Israel to change its policies if your goal is to cut support for that type of act. As it is, Israel embargoes Palestine so basic living materials have to be smuggled, they build giant fuckoff walls inside the borders of Palestinian territory claiming what's on their side of the wall as their own, to include farming land that many Palestinians relied on to make a living, and in the process, make Palestinians second class citizens in their own country. Find me a demographic of people who supported something other than the leaders who are the best at doing violence in that environment. If you're upset that people are reacting violently against your oppression, there's a very easy fix for that.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:52
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Ddraig posted:FWIW it's only really worth looking at subtle nuances when there's even a token attempt to hide blind racism and bigotry. It's always worth looking at subtle nuances, even when people are openly being bigoted. There are always details, and they are always significant in some way. For example, considering that it's impossible for two people of different religions to marry within the borders of Israel, it's perhaps less surprising than you'd think that a government official saw nothing wrong with openly making an anti-miscegenation statement. Likewise, Netanyahu's statements are right in line with assimilationists throughout the modern world who deny immigrants' right to retain their own cultural identity. Dead Cosmonaut posted:I hate to bring this up, but Typically a "sovereign" country is one with complete control over its own territory, in which case Palestine is absolutely not sovereign. Dead Reckoning posted:I think TOS is arguing that rocket fire is useless from a military and strategic perspective, and only serves to harden those factions opposed to a durable peace. Probably, but that's not a particularly useful observation, given that there are plenty of other important perspectives. For example, Hamas' feud with other, more violent factions fighting for control of Gaza is just as significant a factor - if Hamas renounces rocket attacks, then radicalized militant youth will be less likely to join Hamas (where they can be harnessed and controlled) and more likely to join other rocket-launching groups like Islamic Jihad (which strengthens those groups and fuels their bid for power in Gaza).
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Jan 3, 2016 23:53
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Volkerball posted:Terrorizing Israel as a strategy is a lot larger than Hamas. The onus comes down on Israel to change its policies if your goal is to cut support for that type of act. As it is, Israel embargoes Palestine so basic living materials have to be smuggled, they build giant fuckoff walls inside the borders of Palestinian territory claiming what's on their side of the wall as their own, to include farming land that many Palestinians relied on to make a living, and in the process, make Palestinians second class citizens in their own country. Find me a demographic of people who supported something other than the leaders who are the best at doing violence in that environment. If you're upset that people are reacting violently against your oppression, there's a very easy fix for that. These actions predate the settlements though, Fedayeen attacks were going on in the 50s. PLO predates 1967 too. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 03:16
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You'd think the Israelis would be more sympathetic to the use of terror attacks on civilians to establish your own state given their history with the Stern gang and the Irgun etc
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Jan 4, 2016 12:09
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Kim Jong Il posted:These actions predate the settlements though, Fedayeen attacks were going on in the 50s. PLO predates 1967 too. Yeah, you're right, there's no reason for Israel to change anything. Eventually this strategy will work. One of these decades.
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Jan 4, 2016 12:17
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The Insect Court posted:But all of that nuance goes right out the window when Israel is involved. Then it's fine to talk about how those bloodthirsty, deceitful Zionists simply want to slaughter Palestinian children. And of course, any attempt to point out why that sort of characterization is problematic is met with the standard Tea Party-esque "How dare you play the anti-semitism card!" outrage. No one can ever crticize Israeli policy, then, right? I mean, bombing, arresting, blockading, a-okay. Firing rockets in response? What a horrible atrocity. Mk82s and Hellfires, more humane than pissrockets.
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Jan 4, 2016 13:11
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Panzeh posted:No one can ever crticize Israeli policy, then, right? I mean, bombing, arresting, blockading, a-okay. Firing rockets in response? What a horrible atrocity. Mk82s and Hellfires, more humane than pissrockets. You can turn that around the other way though. Why should Hamas and other Palestinian militants get a free pass on exclusively targeting civilians?
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Jan 4, 2016 14:09
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-Troika- posted:You can turn that around the other way though. Why should Hamas and other Palestinian militants get a free pass on exclusively targeting civilians? They're mostly targeting desert sand.
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Jan 4, 2016 14:22
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-Troika- posted:You can turn that around the other way though. Why should Hamas and other Palestinian militants get a free pass on exclusively targeting civilians? Generally when one side has the majority of power you assign them the majority of responsibility.
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Jan 4, 2016 14:31
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As the manhunt for Nashat Melhem reaches its fourth day Naftali Bennett tries to dispel criticism about misconduct by the security forces and the government by completely annihilating the security rationale that is used to justify the biennial butchery in Gaza, do not expect him to be confronted with this statement during the next round:quote:ministers call on public to remain calm: 'The risk of car accidents is still incomparable to that of terrorism.' In other unrelated news, reports of a massive IED explosion next to an IDF patrol adjacent to the contested Shebaa Farms in the Israel\Lebanon border, demonstrating once again that escalating poo poo with hezbollah (the Samir Kuntar assassination from a couple of weeks ago) is always a great idea. Reports of a massive artillery barrage fired by the IDF into Lebanon.
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Jan 4, 2016 14:46
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Hezbollah really isn't in a position to push the issue right now, so we'll see if there's a counter-response. Not hearing of anything yet.
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Jan 4, 2016 16:42
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Kim Jong Il posted:These actions predate the settlements though, Fedayeen attacks were going on in the 50s. PLO predates 1967 too. Yeah, it's not like Israel ever stole Palestinian land prior to 1967. -Troika- posted:You can turn that around the other way though. Why should Hamas and other Palestinian militants get a free pass on exclusively targeting civilians? They shouldn't. But Israel shouldn't get a free pass on targeting civilians either, especially when they kill about a hundred times as many. Since both sides are terrible, arguments about relative morality are basically just distractions - especially when the PA acts as living proof that nonviolence, cooperation, and peaceful negotiation still just boil down to laying down and letting all your poo poo get stolen. Rather than arguing about which civilian-slaughterers are worse, it would be better to look at paths toward a future in which no one slaughters civilians - and that future must necessarily include concessions on both sides, from the very beginning. Hamas will not stop engaging in violent action against Israel unless Israel offers significant concessions of their own, and as long as Israel refuses to recognize Hamas' right to exist, they will have little reason to openly recognize any such right for the current Israeli government. I legit do not understand why so many people (on both sides of the debate) seem to have a fundamental problem with saying "the deaths of Israeli civilians are bad, the deaths of Palestinian civilians are also bad, and both sides are bad and should stop killing civilians, together, at the same time". I'm sick of arguments about who is ultimately at fault for a back-and-forth escalation of violence that has been going in for over half a century. Who the gently caress cares whose fault it is? They're both at fault, and they should both stop - and because of the feedback loop and shared fault between them, they both have to stop at the same time. Why can't anyone say "killing civilians is bad" without then stopping to assign blame and explain why it was really okay for their side to kill civilians? In other news, how about a look at Arab and Jewish education in Israel? http://maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=766493 quote:Paper lanterns crafted for Ramadan are hanging over the heads of children as they run between a snack table and a cartoon playing on the television.
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Jan 4, 2016 17:19
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Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza are already recognized internationally as terrorist groups, while Israel receives huge amounts of military aid and diplomatic support from western nations. If they are morally equivalent we should change our foreign policies to be a lot less pro-Israel.
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Jan 4, 2016 17:32
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Volkerball posted:Yeah, you're right, there's no reason for Israel to change anything. Eventually this strategy will work. One of these decades. Not what I said. Removing settlements isn't going to be a panacea to end violence because that doesn't change a giant plurality of people not accepting the 1948 under any circumstances, or even any presence for some. Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's not like Israel ever stole Palestinian land prior to 1967. Sure, just like Palestinians stole land in East Jerusalem and Hebron. Nevvy Z posted:Generally when one side has the majority of power you assign them the majority of responsibility. But they're a democracy. Abbas and Hamas have the power to unilaterally impose change.
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Jan 5, 2016 03:10
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Kim Jong Il posted:But they're a democracy. Abbas and Hamas have the power to unilaterally impose change. I'm not sure where to start with this  How about 1: unilaterally imposition is the opposite of democracy, even for elected leaders 2: Abbas and HAMAS aren't acting unilaterally in the first place, and when they try to make amends, it is considered casus belli by Israel 3: Abbas DOESN'T have as much power as he wished, he would be perfectly happy to actually pacify the West Bank if it didn't trheaten him etc
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Jan 5, 2016 03:14
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eSports Chaebol posted:I'm not sure where to start with this He's saying that Israel is a democracy, and either because of the weakness of democracy or the perfidy of its citizens, is incapable of making the first steps toward peace. So, while there's quite a bit to unpack in those assumptions, it only works if he means what he says, rather than it being a way to avoid some horrific conclusions.
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Jan 5, 2016 03:35
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Hamas was voted in though
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Jan 5, 2016 03:45
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Hamas was voted in though Like I said, questioning his facts or assumptions won't mean much if this is just a way to put the blame on the Palestinians or declare that both sides have equal responsibility without any of the conclusions you'd derive from believing in that and observing the situation.
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Jan 5, 2016 03:47
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Volkerball posted:Terrorizing Israel as a strategy is a lot larger than Hamas. The onus comes down on Israel to change its policies if your goal is to cut support for that type of act. That's insane. You can't say, "hey, if Israel doesn't want their citizens deliberately targeted for murder, maybe they should stop angering people who murder civilians" and expect people to take it as a serious & moral argument. Hamas and the other factions that perpetuate attacks against Israeli civilians have agency too.Nevvy Z posted:Generally when one side has the majority of power you assign them the majority of responsibility.
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Jan 5, 2016 04:49
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I think it's less angering and more making millions of people live lives of misery to ensure your ethnic superiority in a region
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Jan 5, 2016 05:00
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Dead Reckoning posted:
This isn't remotely a war. It's not so much a fight as a man killing a caged opponent with a knife. Slowly. For fun. It's a cop kicking a man in the face as punishment for moving while another cop pokes him all over with a pin. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jan 5, 2016 |
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Jan 5, 2016 05:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:
So France was justified in the use of torture in the Algerian War of Independence, because the FLN could have stopped at any time and surrendered? I think that this line of thinking is one that leads to inevitable and total pacifism, which is an interesting but not particularly fruitful philosophy.
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Jan 5, 2016 05:36
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No one has a monopoly on suffering! Hamas deliberately killed civilians to aid Likud's rise and escalate the conflict. Israeli voters are scarred and radicalized by violence. Due to non-Zionist parties refusing to be in coalitions with Zionist parties, Likud currently has a monopoly on the premiership. Therefore, any concessions are unrealistic from the Israeli side as it would cause a Likud government to fall. Meanwhile, there hasn't been a Palestinian election in a decade and that one was instantly ignored. Hamas and Fatah rule by fiat. As a descriptive statement, the only way there's going to be any movement on peace in the near future is from their side. I don't see why that's controversial. Hamas is clearly angling to open up Gaza and offering concessions. You would probably freely admit that Likud isn't currently interested in peace were we dealing with another context. Therefore, the notion that the onus is on Israel to move the conflict along is false. That bad argument also directly leads to "X is worse than Y, therefore Y should never do anything ever," and you clearly don't agree with that.
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Jan 5, 2016 06:48
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Cat Mattress posted:They're mostly targeting desert sand. What they're targeting are Jews, but you knew that of course. Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's not like Israel ever stole Palestinian land prior to 1967. Is this your tacit endorsement of the balls-to-the-wall full throttle Death To Israel position? Calling Israel inside the pre-1967 borders stolen land makes it pretty obvious where one stands. Always strikes me as kind of disingenuous when someone complains about how those darn Israelis won't compromise for peace when what they want to see is not any sort of compromise or two-state solution but the eradication of the state of Israel. Nevvy Z posted:This isn't remotely a war. It's not so much a fight as a man killing a caged opponent with a knife. Slowly. For fun. Must I really point out the irony of using the metaphor of stabbing someone to death with a knife given recent events in the region?
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Jan 5, 2016 07:00
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The Insect Court posted:Must I really point out the irony of using the metaphor of stabbing someone to death with a knife given recent events in the region? It doesn't matter. Waa the caged man bit me, hit him again!
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Jan 5, 2016 14:35
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The Israeli government is suddenly holding talks about how to respond to a potential collapse of the PA. I haven't seen anything new that particularly justifies the sudden wave of concerns and rumors, other than the slowly intensifying crackdowns and downsides within the West Bank over the past few months. However, evidence is growing that the fall of the PA is a "when" question rather than an "if" question, so it seems like the center-left is trying to make it a political issue now in order to blame Netanyahu for failing to either prepare for it or act to prevent it. The PA is loudly denying all reports that their regime is in any danger, but no one with any sense is buying it. The Knesset, in an effort to combat Israel's ongoing economic woes, high poverty rate, and mounting inequality, has cut the corporate tax rate. Yeah, good luck with that. The current UN Human Rights Council special investigator into Palestinian human rights has resigned because, despite having held the post for a year and a half, Israel hasn't allowed him to visit the West Bank even once. His successor is unlikely to be any more successful, as Israel takes issue with the very existence of the post - the only UN HRC special investigator post indefinitely assigned to a single country. Israel has denied other human rights investigators on less reasonable grounds, however - the UN HRC investigator for women's rights was prevented from visiting the West Bank last year because her request and itinerary did not reflect the Foreign Ministry's view that there was "no such country" as Palestine and the West Bank was part of Israel. The IDF has backed down from a plan to put special numbered stickers on the ID cards of Palestinians who live near the Jewish area of Hebron after it was compared repeatedly and loudly to a certain regime's treatment of certain minorities. The intent appears to have been to speed up the identification of residents - in an attempt to reduce the opportunities for violence, those neighborhoods are currently defined as "closed military areas" that no Palestinians are allowed to enter except for the ones who already live there, but actually checking the residency of every Palestinian that enters turned out to be too slow and time-consuming and therefore the IDF is looking for a way to streamline this entry check. A Palestinian taxi driver has been sent to the hospital after being stopped and beaten by armed settlers. Two Israeli Arabs were forced to disembark from an Aegean Airlines flight to Israel after a number of Israeli Jewish passengers refused to allow the plane to take off, demanding repeated security checks and generally being obstructive pains in the rear end. Even after the Arabs were removed from the plane, the passengers continued to prevent the takeoff and demand further security checks until the captain threatened to kick them all off the plane. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.695633 quote:Israeli passengers on a recent Aegean Airlines flight from Greece to Israel forced the cabin crew to remove two Israeli Arabs from the flight before allowing it to take off, according to a report by Israel Radio.
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Jan 5, 2016 17:41
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rscott posted:
Nevvy Z posted:This isn't remotely a war. It's not so much a fight as a man killing a caged opponent with a knife. Slowly. For fun.
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Jan 5, 2016 21:58
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I categorically deny the utility of targeting civilians but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the ridiculous understatement that you've made.
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Jan 6, 2016 03:50
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I don't know if anyone else is watching the frontline show Netanyahu's War on PBS but it doesn't paint him in a good light at all, in a very personal way.
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Jan 6, 2016 04:53
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