Crawl 0.17: Corn enemies no longer popcorn

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl 0.17: Corn enemies no longer popcorn

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

I find 5-6 evo a pretty reasonable investment for both bolt and hex wands. Evocable berserk/invis/tele can make me want more - though often you're ok with just trying repeatedly at lesser success rates for a long time.

# ? Jan 4, 2016 23:26

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# ? May 17, 2024 23:44

Dee Ehm: Apr 10, 2014

Darox posted:

A staff of energy maybe, but a crystal ball is dangerous at the best of times.

Using it when your max MP pool is lower and you're less likely to have options to bail out when it screws you is worrisome. I'd rather stick to sublimation or regular mp conservation tactics.

Crystal Balls also require an INTENSE evo investment to become 'reliable' and even then they're risky. I've ascended a couple casters using them. It's really fun but holy crap is it likely to get you killed.

# ? Jan 4, 2016 23:27

Razakai: Sep 15, 2007; People are afraid
To merge on the freeway
Disappear here

Dee Ehm posted:

Crystal Balls also require an INTENSE evo investment to become 'reliable' and even then they're risky. I've ascended a couple casters using them. It's really fun but holy crap is it likely to get you killed.

Yeah, I had to flee a ziggurat due to that. Thought 'I have 60% mana, capped evo and nothing is currently in sight, might as well top up my mana to keep the firestorm train rolling'. Next I have 0 mana and am desperately evoking a staff of energy to death's door+blink past the horde of mummies.

# ? Jan 4, 2016 23:30

Dee Ehm: Apr 10, 2014

Razakai posted:

Yeah, I had to flee a ziggurat due to that. Thought 'I have 60% mana, capped evo and nothing is currently in sight, might as well top up my mana to keep the firestorm train rolling'. Next I have 0 mana and am desperately evoking a staff of energy to death's door+blink past the horde of mummies.

CBoE failed me once in a mummy floor on a Zig, I had competent melee and figured I might try Silence.

Cue me random teleporting with my wand, evoking fog from my cloak of the thief, and quaffing curing for health between blasting every mummy that could smite with my rod of inaccuracy and praying to make it out alive. I somehow did.

# ? Jan 4, 2016 23:48

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I like to train evo high enough that the fan of gales actually pushes enemies away from me. I dunno what the precise breakpoint is, but 8-9 seems to work

# ? Jan 4, 2016 23:52

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Getting a few points in evo early on means you can use wands of confuse/paralyze to demolish bees and that's a huge boon imo

# ? Jan 5, 2016 00:29

Locke Dunnegan: Apr 25, 2005; Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle

One thing I haven't seen someone mention is that you ID the number of charges left (and thus stop wasting multiple charges) much more with some points in Evo. This saves ID scrolls and let's you be more liberal and safe with wands, as you won't have dud evoke attempts and can get way more out of each wand. This is pretty useful in the midgame.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 01:01

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Pakellas and Wanderer down, and on a three-win streak!

code:

1997837 Floodkiller the Axe Maniac (level 26, 230/248 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Dwarf Wanderer on Jan 4, 2016.
             Was the Champion of Pakellas.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on Jan 5, 2016!
             
             The game lasted 05:04:16 (49247 turns).

My opinion on Pakellas: broken as gently caress. Even constantly spamming the recharge power on my heal wounds wand didn't stop me from recharging pretty much every other wand I could get my hands on as well. I also got this out of a scroll of acquirement in Lair, which pretty much sealed the rest of the game:

code:

+8 frozen axe "Frostbite" {freezing cloud, *Noise +Fly rC+}

One thing that should probably be fixed is putting a minimum MP cost on the recharge power; due to it always being guaranteed to recharge at least one charge, I was encouraged to recharge some other wand, then use it another 3-4 times on my heal wounds wand to guarantee around 4-5 cheap charges with my remaining MP. Sure, piety could theoretically be a downside to it, but I never dropped below five stars even while abusing this constantly.

I never got an iron rod to supercharge, and probably should have supercharged my heal wounds wand instead, but oh well. Additionally, I never used the surge power, but I guess it might have been useful sometime???

# ? Jan 5, 2016 03:01

HisMajestyBOB: Oct 21, 2010; College Slice

I never really noticed a difference when using Surge power, whether with Iron Rods, Disc of Storms, Rod of Shadows, or wands.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 03:37

meatpath: Feb 13, 2003

Had a Zot with 128 Draconians in it tonight. gently caress you, Zot.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 07:01

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

HisMajestyBOB posted:

I never really noticed a difference when using Surge power, whether with Iron Rods, Disc of Storms, Rod of Shadows, or wands.

I surged a sack of spiders and got an emperor scorpion once.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 07:03

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Sometimes you get bodied before lair. Other times you kill an orc warlord with a 26% chance hibernation and take his rod of shadows, and then get a +8 quick blade from acquirement

# ? Jan 5, 2016 12:37

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

And just like that, win #30.

code:

2071368 Shard1697 the Ninja (level 26, 76/151 HPs)
             Began as a Spriggan Enchanter on Jan 5, 2016.
             Was the Champion of Kikubaaqudgha.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 4 runes!
             
             The game lasted 04:38:51 (85270 turns).

Shard1697 the Ninja (Spriggan Enchanter)           Turns: 85270, Time: 04:38:51

Health: 76/151     AC: 17    Str:  4    XL:     26   Next: 94%
Magic:  22/44      EV: 37    Int: 31    God:    Kikubaaqudgha [******]
Gold:   3305       SH: 10    Dex: 18    Spells: 11 memorised, 21 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     a - +9 quick blade (pain)
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     x - +2 troll leather armour {rC+}
rNeg   + + .     SustAt   .     w - +2 buckler {rN+}
rPois  .         Gourm    .     I - +2 hat of the Bear Spirit {Spirit, +Rage rN+ MR++}
rElec  .         Spirit   +     u - +2 cloak {+Inv}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   +         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
MR     +++++                    B - amulet "Yzuekhuad" {rMut Int+8 Dex-4}
Stlth  ++++......               P - +4 ring of protection
                                o - ring of protection from fire

@: death channel, repel missiles, very quick, almost entirely resistant to
hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: unfitting armour, yellow scales 1, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow
metabolism 2
a: Receive Corpses, Torment, Renounce Religion, Evoke Berserk Rage, Evoke
Invisibility
0: Orb of Zot
}: 4/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, gossamer

This was actually my first Spriggan win because I almost never both playing as anything stabby. It's a lot more tolerable now that you can see the % chance of hexes, but I'd still prefer just playing as a dude who murders things by hitting them. Also it was my first Kiku win, I think.

I got really good gear this game, getting an invis cloak/rod of shadows/a +8 quick blade all before lair.
Death Channel is really fun and good.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 14:56

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

Somebody write a GongZigging script which crunches this

code:

 The balrug gestures at you.
 You block the sticky flame.
 GONNNNG!
 A chunk of your corpse armour falls away.
 You hear a sizzling sound! You hear a hideous shriek!
 You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a shout!
 You hear a shout! You hear a loud, deep croak! You hear a roar!
 You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a bellow! You hear a roar!
 You hear a shout! x2
 You hear a roar! You hear a screech! You hear a shout! You hear a roar!
 You hear a shout! You hear a bellow! You hear a shout! You hear a roar!
 You hear a shout! x2
 You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a shout! You hear a shout!
 You hear a shout! You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a roar!
 You hear a chilling moan. You hear a loud, deep croak! You hear a shout!
 You hear a croak. You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a shout!
 You hear a chilling moan. x2
 You hear a bellow! You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a chilling moan.
 You hear a roar! x2
 You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a roar! You hear a roar!
 You hear a screech! You hear a chilling moan. You hear a roar!
 You hear a shout! x2
 You hear a bellow! You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a shout!
 You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a shout! You hear a shout!
 You hear a roar! You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a roar! You hear a shout!
 You hear a screech! You hear a roar! You hear a roar! You hear a shout!
 You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a chilling moan.
 Something sneers, "Capitulate, thou impertinent fly-bitten bloater!"
 You hear a shout! You hear a loud, deep croak! You hear a roar!
 You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a chilling moan. You hear a screech!
 You hear a roar! x2
 You hear a shout! x3
 You hear a roar! x2
 You hear a shout! You hear a chilling moan. You hear a roar! You hear a shout!
 You hear a shout! You hear a loud, deep croak! You hear a roar!
 You hear a roar! You hear a shout! You hear a croak. You hear a hideous shriek!
 You hear a roar! You hear a chilling moan. You hear a screech!
 You hear a hideous shriek! You hear a bellow! You hear a chilling moan.
 You hear a screech! You hear a shout! You hear a shout! You hear a shout!
 You hear a roar! You hear a shout! You hear a roar! You hear a roar!
_You hear a shout! x2

And then gives a estimate of what the level has in it.

(just one pan lord, btw)

# ? Jan 5, 2016 19:05

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Nice, there's a bug in that log.

I'll see if I can fix it when I get home.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 19:16

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Robes of vines is pretty cool.

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/InternetKraken/morgue-InternetKraken-20160105-013602.txt

Found it in Elf:3, threw it on even though I had a big armour investment because holy molly regen! Got a lot of good artifacts this game, but it was still pretty hard since floor god was cruel. I didn't find a single book with spectral weapon. Seems like there's always something the RNG holds out on you. Now to go back to splatting VsWz because I am terrible and forgot how to play vine stalkers properly.

Oh and this is why you shouldn't dive in Pan when not near full health.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 19:26

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

okay this one is not bad either

code:

 The yaktaur captain shoots a bolt of frost.
 PANG!
 You block the bolt of frost. The stone giant throws a large rock.
 The large rock completely misses you.
_You hear a shout! x248

# ? Jan 5, 2016 19:43

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

Shadow Creatures and Monstrous Menagerie both got bumped up one spell level, to 6 and 7 respectively.
Temporary mutation change, both to wretched stars and demonspawn corrupters. Now they attempt to put two stacks of the same bad mutation on you.

# ? Jan 5, 2016 23:50

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

Cloak of the thief for fog clouds and then evokable blink almost makes for a reliable way to zip around and murder silent specters, but i decided to call it quits at 4 and a bit ziggurats.

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/resistentialism/morgue-resistentialism-20160105-212118.txt

# ? Jan 6, 2016 00:13

Fhqwhgads: Jul 18, 2003; I AM THE ONLY ONE IN THIS GAME WHO GETS LAID

Hahah, edit: Nevermind, dead.

Fhqwhgads fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 6, 2016

# ? Jan 6, 2016 00:14

Locke Dunnegan: Apr 25, 2005; Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle

Playing more DsWn of Ash: The Earthening: With a Vengeance. Unfortunately I left my cheap vodka at a friend's place and got a good night's sleep last night so I am both sober and well-rested.

https://crawl.s-z.org/#watch-Locke37

# ? Jan 6, 2016 00:25

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

ZeeToo posted:

Shadow Creatures and Monstrous Menagerie both got bumped up one spell level, to 6 and 7 respectively.

I'm glad to see the devs are still going strong with their mission to make me never use the summoning school ever.

It seems like the school is designed for and balanced around the HAM though, so I guess it wasn't ever for me in the first place.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 00:49

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Shadow Creatures always seemed a lot better to me than Monstrous Menagerie.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 02:51

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

The power of shadow creatures varies heavily by branch. Menagerie is a more consistent spell. I'm not sure they both needed be bumped up a spell level but I barely ever use summons outside of mana viper and malign gate way anyways.

Though recently I have discovered that aura of abjuration is usually worth a small summoning investment all on its own. Too bad its really drat rare.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 03:05

Locke Dunnegan: Apr 25, 2005; Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle

Locke Dunnegan posted:

Playing more DsWn of Ash: The Earthening: With a Vengeance. Unfortunately I left my cheap vodka at a friend's place and got a good night's sleep last night so I am both sober and well-rested.

https://crawl.s-z.org/#watch-Locke37

Thanks for everyone tagging along once again! Vaults:5 exploded satisfyingly, Shatter is at a reliable 99% failure rate, and Golden Dragons are tab fodder. Can't wait to have Haste, Phase Shift, Stoneskin, AND Shatter up, especially with Wild Magic 1, Augmentation 2, and staff of earth. I'm not sure I want to bother with Hell effects, but I definitely need to find something to blow up once Shatter won't kill me.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 03:30

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

With summoning's current design I think the only helper that I legitimately enjoy having around is spectral weapon, TBH.

Those spells didn't need moving since they weren't gamebreaking and Crawl is not supposed to care about balance to that degree anyway. The only thing I can think of that could justify it was if these level increases also increase variety in spell usage, but I highly doubt that since the summoning school is pretty strong and varied all around. Also the bumps from 5->6 and even 6->7 aren't that big for characters with good apts, it's crappy combos like MuSu that will really get the shaft because they're almost always starved for XP as it is.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 03:38

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Darox posted:

I'm glad to see the devs are still going strong with their mission to make me never use the summoning school ever.

It seems like the school is designed for and balanced around the HAM though, so I guess it wasn't ever for me in the first place.

lmao

# ? Jan 6, 2016 04:05

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Basically every notable summoning change since I started playing that wasn't adding a new spell involved nerfing something because people were doing safe/strong but tedious things with it. :shrug:

I'll stick to just summoning spectral weapons & flame vortices. Butterflies can come too.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 04:32

gammafunk: Dec 19, 2015

Those spells did need moving because they are as strong as the living daylights. "hypothetical optimal play" or "you shouldn't balance summons spells" are memes that have nothing to do with it. Menagerie and Shadow Creatures are just two single-school spells that do a really tremendous amount of damage given the mp.

Shadow creatures always has been (and probably always will be) brokenly strong given no dependence on spell power and rolling insane monsters. Menagerie very often gives more damage per cast than summon hydra due to the differences in duration, even assuming you summon the hydra in the best location to have it attack before it abjures.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 04:51

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Yeah summoning really doesn't require you to play like a HAM to get use out of it, at all. Actually the changes to it from a while back moved it away from that, since it used to be people would flood the screen with summons and peck enemies to death from offscreen with them. Summoning now is less tedious and HAM-y than ever before.

Seriously just get a summoning spell or two on a melee character sometime. Whenever you're in a fight, spawn something to fight with you, and watch everything die much much faster on top of diverting damage away from you and giving you distraction stabs.

Internet Kraken posted:

Though recently I have discovered that aura of abjuration is usually worth a small summoning investment all on its own. Too bad its really drat rare.

Aura is maybe my favorite summoning spell because of how many annoying enemies it trivializes. Makes lots of lategame/postgame scary summoners totally inept.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 04:59

Heithinn Grasida: Mar 28, 2005; ...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...

I agree with the change to shadow creatures, since almost anyone could cast it pretty easily and if you're of a HAMmy disposition, you could kill almost anything with just that spell. I don't like the change to monstrous menagerie. Yes, it's a really good spell, but I agree that this is focusing too much on game balance in a very niche case. It was fine for it to be the summonings equivalent of Parrow. Especially so considering how much more busy work summonings require than conjurations anyway.

I do think that summonings has a strong flavor of HAM. The spells that just summon a monster to fight for you are very strong if you do a bunch of really boring and fiddly stuff to make them work. I still really like the school, but mostly because of the actually fun and interesting spells in it like summon forest, malign gateway, and dragon's call or the summons that have strong utility like mana vipers, haunt or summon horrible things.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:00

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

I don't see how doing stuff like kiting with summons or giving summons orders is any more tedious than stairdancing or everything else that makes up the backbone of how Crawl is played.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:02

meatpath: Feb 13, 2003

gammafunk posted:

Those spells did need moving because they are as strong as the living daylights. "hypothetical optimal play" or "you shouldn't balance summons spells" are memes that have nothing to do with it. Menagerie and Shadow Creatures are just two single-school spells that do a really tremendous amount of damage given the mp.

Shadow creatures always has been (and probably always will be) brokenly strong given no dependence on spell power and rolling insane monsters. Menagerie very often gives more damage per cast than summon hydra due to the differences in duration, even assuming you summon the hydra in the best location to have it attack before it abjures.

Hey it's gammafunk! I didn't know you lived here. I don't have anything else meaningful to add. it's meatpath

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:02

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

gammafunk posted:

Those spells did need moving because they are as strong as the living daylights. "hypothetical optimal play" or "you shouldn't balance summons spells" are memes that have nothing to do with it. Menagerie and Shadow Creatures are just two single-school spells that do a really tremendous amount of damage given the mp.

I'm not saying that summoning or strong spells shouldn't be balanced, I just think summoners are incredibly tedious to play. Balancing them wrt to other builds is a good thing. I have even less incentive to bother with them, but whatever. e: I guess I should specify that by 'notable' changes I meant changes to the mechanics, rather than number tweaks.

IronicDongz posted:

Yeah summoning really doesn't require you to play like a HAM to get use out of it, at all. Actually the changes to it from a while back moved it away from that, since it used to be people would flood the screen with summons and peck enemies to death from offscreen with them. Summoning now is less tedious and HAM-y than ever before.

Gotta disagree with this point. The LoS change definitely made summons more tedious. If you're navigating a pillar or fog or anything else that could obscure a monster for a turn, your summons immediately go retarded and walk back to you while the enemy they were fighting follows on their heels.

It's a change that needed to happen to prevent degenerate strategies, but it exposes problems with summons and their ai that makes regular play more annoying.

Darox fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Jan 6, 2016

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:33

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

Kirke just hoggified herself, Ru reasons?

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:36

gammafunk: Dec 19, 2015

Menagerie is still the p. arrow of summons because it requires investing only in one school (p. arrow requires investment in two). You really want aura of abjuration to use summon greater demon to safely with the T1 summons (so you effectively have an additional MP cost), and summon hydra is significantly less effective at damaging monsters at range.

The developers are always going to keep considering balance of spells and adjusting as necessary to try to improve game balance, so I don't get "these spells shouldn't be tweaked for balance". There's not really a spell school or set of spells where they'd just look at them and go "hmm.. these spells reside on an island of insanity in the periodic table of magic, so we'd better not touch them!"

gammafunk fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jan 6, 2016

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:37

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Pure summoners are boring as hell. Crusaders that fight with summons as a backup army are pretty fun. Spreading your exp as a hybrid means you're never gonna cast dragon's call though.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 05:38

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

gammafunk posted:

The developers are always going to keep considering balance of spells and adjusting as necessary to try to improve game balance, so I don't get "these spells shouldn't be tweaked for balance". There's not really a spell school or set of spells where they'd just look at them and go "hmm.. these spells reside on an island of insanity in the period table of magic, so we'd better not touch them!"

I'll try to word it better: balance changes are obviously ok, but menagerie and shadow creatures didn't seem like they needed adjusting, both from a challenge and/or fun perspective. This could just be me not having enough experience with summoner classes, since I've only branched out to those spells as a backup and not as my primary form of damage and fighting. IMO it's not a huge change either way, I feel like it will mostly just affect characters who go the summoner route with poor apts (which is fair).

This is only tangentially related, but I do find some of the summoning mechanics jarring, most notably summons losing all their aggression without direct LOS. Maybe for balance it's absolutely necessary, but I wish summons could always be aggressive without you needing to stare at your target.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 07:15

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Today for the first time I zoomed in and looked closely at a Profane Servitor, and realized that their head is a skull. Every other time I've seen one I've seen the white and thought that kinda like how the angels have golden flowing hair they instead were like, white-haired Sephiroth looking fuckers

# ? Jan 6, 2016 07:31

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# ? May 17, 2024 23:44

Dee Ehm: Apr 10, 2014

I can accept that summoning is powerful but I find it kinda unattractive. I've played around with Ice Beast / Mana Viper / Malign Gateway, and space tentacles were fun for a character already heavy into translocations, but I sort of have a hard time seeing why I should branch into them or focus on them when they split off my experience.

I've actually had multiple characters pick up shadow creatures mid-late game and then just amnesia it, because it felt like a pretty 'meh' option compared to all the other options I had. I don't really know how it works though. Does it summon pack monsters individually?

Rod of Shadows though, I get the appeal. Getting a golden dragon or a caustic shrike pack in Depths on a Pakellas worshipper. That's value.

Edit: A lot of it is probably that it's just hard for me to understand how harpies and manticores are going to be any threat to Zot enemies. Apparently they can hold their own though?

Dee Ehm fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jan 6, 2016

# ? Jan 6, 2016 10:15

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