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Rygar201 posted:Prophecy pedantry is so loving tedious. It's a prophecy, not a binding contract. I think you've just decided my next campaign gimmick.
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Jan 5, 2016 16:43
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Rygar201 posted:Prophecy pedantry is so loving tedious. It's a prophecy, not a binding contract. Right there with you. I loving hate when something is treated as inevitable, just because it was prophesied. That it was foretold that the hero will defeat the villain does not render the villain invulnerable to everyone else, not does it grant the hero villain-slaying superpowers.
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Jan 5, 2016 16:53
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I hate prophecies. I hate them because I like a story where choices, actions and consequences get to play out properly. No backsies, no bullshit about how all of it was somehow "destined" to begin with, no clones, no doombots, no lucid life-like simulations. The only reason I can tolerate half of what happens in OoTS is that I get the impression that Rich cares a lot about this angle too. You can see it in various points in the plot, but the biggest one that gives it away is V's arc.
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Jan 5, 2016 16:54
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e X posted:Right there with you. I loving hate when something is treated as inevitable, just because it was prophesied. That it was foretold that the hero will defeat the villain does not render the villain invulnerable to everyone else, not does it grant the hero villain-slaying superpowers. Unfortunately OoTS is completely bogged down in this.
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Jan 5, 2016 17:00
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greatn posted:Unfortunately OoTS is completely bogged down in this. Eh, not really. Prophecies are there, true, but so far, we hadn't had something happened, just because it was prophesied. Well, save for the "red strikes true" thing during the first fight with the linear guild, but that was pretty minor.
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Jan 5, 2016 17:09
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The Oracle's prophecies were almost certainly created because rich had figured out what the biggest character arc for each character was over the course of the story and wanted to dangle a thread of early suspense around each one. He could have used foreshadowing methods other than literal prophecy, but I don't think much was lost by beating us over the heads with it, given how dense the story is.
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Jan 5, 2016 17:23
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The best way of going about prophecies is to leave it vague enough that only the very broad details are locked in place. Like Harry Potter's "neither shall live while the other survives": just enough to heavily imply that Harry and Voldy are inevitably going to have a duel that will end with one of them dying, but it obviously doesn't say who will win. And it also doubles as some foreshadowed tension, since by that point in the series, Harry has been fairly solidly established as not having it in him to actually kill someone (I can't remember off the top of my head if he does try to kill Bellatrix during the climax of OotP, but can't conjure up the sheer hatred to go through with it). It adds another dimension to the final conflict at that point in the series: either Harry is going to lose his innocence and will directly and intentionally kill another person... Or Voldemort will triumph, since he obviously has no qualms about it. ...Granted, we know how it really ends now, of course.
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Jan 5, 2016 18:48
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Harry Potter is a great example for good prophecy, but for different reasons: It actually says outright that there is no fate or destiny forcing Harry and Voldemort to fight each other, it is just that Voldemort believe so and will therefore never stop trying to kill Harry. However, it is amazing how many people don't get that.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:04
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Morrowind does a very good job of that too, the whole game is wrapped up in a prophecy about how the Nerevarine will come and save the world, but in the end it's left ambiguous about whether or not you actually are Nerevar reborn, or if you're just some random prisoner who was being manipulated by gods and men to put on a convenient act, and if you failed they'd just try again. In the end the point is irrelevant, you believe what you want to.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:11
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Hell, the ancient Greek Myths centering on prophecy are pretty well done. Attempting to defy fate leads you to fulfill it in unexpected ways. Shakespeare did pretty well in Macbeth also. Hell, Asimov did a whole series centering on sci-fi prophecy and how a culture obsessed with their grand destiny would go astray repeatedly. In fact, I'd have a harder time coming up with prominent examples of prophecy being misused. The Star Wars prequels are an obvious choice, but in general, it's not got that bad a legacy as a concept.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:40
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greatn posted:Unfortunately OoTS is completely bogged down in this. :goback2gitp:
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Jan 5, 2016 20:11
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greatn posted:Unfortunately OoTS is completely bogged down in this. Maybe in your  perception of it. The actual comic avoids such bullshit pretty handily though. I think the literal prophecies area helpful because his typical fan is loving dense. Like those boards make TVIV posters look like critical consumers of media.
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Jan 5, 2016 20:28
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ikanreed posted:In fact, I'd have a harder time coming up with prominent examples of prophecy being misused. The Star Wars prequels are an obvious choice, but in general, it's not got that bad a legacy as a concept. And even then there's a moment near the end where Windu and Yoda have a moment of self reflection and realize they've let themselves be manipulated by the prophecy too much.
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Jan 5, 2016 20:56
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e X posted:Harry Potter is a great example for good prophecy, but for different reasons: It actually says outright that there is no fate or destiny forcing Harry and Voldemort to fight each other, it is just that Voldemort believe so and will therefore never stop trying to kill Harry. However, it is amazing how many people don't get that. I love that example for the same reasons - the story really sells the fact that Voldemort basically engineered his own defeat by putting stock in the prophecy. He would have been fine if he had ignored it, but his fear of death made him do the stereotypical stupid villain thing and fulfill the prophecy himself by actively trying to prevent it.
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Jan 5, 2016 22:28
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:And even then there's a moment near the end where Windu and Yoda have a moment of self reflection and realize they've let themselves be manipulated by the prophecy too much. Yeah, but that didn't resolve anything in an interesting way. It was the "Oh boy there's an important person with a destiny" prophecy, played a little different than normal. For being the awful crutchy cliche use of something, you just don't see it much.
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Jan 5, 2016 22:49
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The worse thing about the prophesy in Episodes I-III in my opinion is that no-one ever thinks about what it means. He'll "Bring balance to the Force", but is that something that we want to happen? How? And most importantly. If there's a bunch of Jedi and no Sith, does balance mean a bunch of Jedi have to die? (eg what happened?). That conclusion seems fairly obvious, but no-one ever thinks about or mentions what the prophesy means, just if Anakin is the one to fufil it.
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Jan 5, 2016 22:53
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nothing to seehere posted:The worse thing about the prophesy in Episodes I-III in my opinion is that no-one ever thinks about what it means. He'll "Bring balance to the Force", but is that something that we want to happen? How? And most importantly. If there's a bunch of Jedi and no Sith, does balance mean a bunch of Jedi have to die? (eg what happened?). That conclusion seems fairly obvious, but no-one ever thinks about or mentions what the prophesy means, just if Anakin is the one to fufil it. Yeah but Lucas disagrees with you.
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Jan 5, 2016 22:55
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nothing to seehere posted:The worse thing about the prophesy in Episodes I-III in my opinion is that no-one ever thinks about what it means. He'll "Bring balance to the Force", but is that something that we want to happen? How? And most importantly. If there's a bunch of Jedi and no Sith, does balance mean a bunch of Jedi have to die? (eg what happened?). That conclusion seems fairly obvious, but no-one ever thinks about or mentions what the prophesy means, just if Anakin is the one to fufil it. Also it doesn't create tension because of the nature of the prequels as coming before the resolution of the plot. It's just gristle for nerd theorycrafters to obsess over, which automatically makes it bad writing.
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Jan 5, 2016 22:55
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Zonekeeper posted:I love that example for the same reasons - the story really sells the fact that Voldemort basically engineered his own defeat by putting stock in the prophecy. There were even alternate interpretations that were more in keeping with his supposed ideology, but he ignored them and picked the one that both got him killed and revealed him as a hypocrite.
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Jan 6, 2016 00:57
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ikanreed posted:
There's a novel by [author's name redacted because this is a huge spoiler] in which the villain says "I don't understand it! I did everything in accordance with the prophecy, and yet my empire has collapsed and the heroine is coming to kill us!", and his assistant says "uh... this is kind of embarrassing, but... that wasn't actually a prophecy. I went to the oracle, gave him a big bag of cookies, and told him what to say. I thought it'd be more interesting like this!"
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Jan 6, 2016 01:41
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Parahexavoctal posted:There's a novel by [author's name redacted because this is a huge spoiler] in which the villain says "I don't understand it! I did everything in accordance with the prophecy, and yet my empire has collapsed and the heroine is coming to kill us!", and his assistant says "uh... this is kind of embarrassing, but... that wasn't actually a prophecy. I went to the oracle, gave him a big bag of cookies, and told him what to say. I thought it'd be more interesting like this!" You could spoil tag it.
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Jan 6, 2016 02:03
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ikanreed posted:Hell, the ancient Greek Myths centering on prophecy are pretty well done. Attempting to defy fate leads you to fulfill it in unexpected ways. Shakespeare did pretty well in Macbeth also. Those work because they were tragedies. They had emotional impact because things like Oedipus were highlighting how sometimes decent people just get mercilessly hosed over by a cruel world with nothing that can do about it. The prophecy there is a device highlighting powerlessness. And while that works for Oedipus, taking away character agency is basically the opposite of what you want to be doing in a heroic fantasy story.
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Jan 6, 2016 02:17
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Colonel Cool posted:Those work because they were tragedies. They had emotional impact because things like Oedipus were highlighting how sometimes decent people just get mercilessly hosed over by a cruel world with nothing that can do about it. The prophecy there is a device highlighting powerlessness. Maybe don't murder everyone who hurts your foot. That's a pretty good line for "decent person" to me.
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Jan 6, 2016 03:39
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ikanreed posted:Maybe don't murder everyone who hurts your foot. That's a pretty good line for "decent person" to me. Well to be fair I think it was meant to be a more reasonable thing to do when it was written.
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Jan 6, 2016 04:11
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ikanreed posted:Hell, the ancient Greek Myths centering on prophecy are pretty well done. And they're not afraid to play literal genie. "You'll die when a house falls on you!" "Hm, okay, I'll only live outdoors then." *bird drops a tortoise on Aeschylus' head*
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Jan 6, 2016 11:28
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Or "yo, your newborn son is gonna kill you someday." "poo poo! Leave him out in the wilderness and pin his heels together so he'll die before that can happen!" <Dies in a freak discus accident thrown by his son years and years later>
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Jan 6, 2016 12:12
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ikanreed posted:Yeah, but that didn't resolve anything in an interesting way. It was the "Oh boy there's an important person with a destiny" prophecy, played a little different than normal. For being the awful crutchy cliche use of something, you just don't see it much. I disagree, I thought that the Force prophecy in Star Wars was an example of it well done. It was a vague statement (The Chosen One shall bring balance of the Force.) That the Jedi council chose to interpret as a Good thing but Palapatine chose to completely ignore and focus on his ambition. And by the end of the third movie all but two Jedi and two Sith are dead so balance has been brought to the Force. Of course Obi Wan and Yoda are left lamenting that they put so much stock in the prophecy and we're screwed over by it. Then you have Return where Palapatine is a victim of the Prophecy. He puts all his faith in the undying loyalty of Darth Vader and that he will be able to corrupt Luke. He doesn't and is betrayed. By doing so and killing himself, Vader has killed all the old Jedi and wiped out the ascendent Dark Side. Luke (and Leia) are left as the only Force users and are free to rebuild the Force as a new balanced entity. I think Prophecies as literary devices work best where there is interpretation or wiggle room or they are things that make you slap your head and say "now I see" like a riddle. They are bad when they are essentially a spoiler like summary of how the story is going to be resolved. "Xylkon will lose the title after getting hit by three Super kicks. "
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Jan 6, 2016 12:16
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Regalingualius posted:Or "yo, your newborn son is gonna kill you someday." You got your myths mixed up. The one with pinned heels was Oedipus, while the discus thing is part of Perseus's myth. And it was his grandfather he killed, not his father.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:22
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Remember that time when Hercules went into Hades to consult Tiresius for the answer to the Sphinx's riddle to get the holy sword?
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Jan 6, 2016 12:29
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Profecies work on the same principle a teletubbies' show does: they make the reader/viewer feel good because they managed to anticipate what was going to happen, which is perfectly fine. I didn't mind them at all. It is the fans sperging about them what becomes annoying real fast. Add D&D, comics, and a glacial update schedule and you have quite the recipe.
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Jan 6, 2016 17:24
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trucutru posted:Profecies work on the same principle a teletubbies' show does: they make the reader/viewer feel good because they managed to anticipate what was going to happen, which is perfectly fine. Comprehensive list of things with rabid fans that are not actively ruined by exposure to those fans:
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Jan 6, 2016 18:23
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The Question IRL posted:I disagree, I thought that the Force prophecy in Star Wars was an example of it well done. Starwars prophecy always confuses me. "Balance to the force" would imply equal parts jedi and sith. So when Darth Vader comes along there is only jedis which means force is out of balance. But then everyone just goes back and forth killing literally everyone on the opposite side each time. The movies imply luke brought balance to the force by killing all the sith, that is not balance to me. I really want the new movies to say you can't win by genocide. They are two parts of the same coin. When there are jedi there will be sith. When there are sith there will be jedi. But none of that ever seems to be part of the star wars universe. Except maybe in the EU but I'm never going to read that poo poo. Long story short I don't think any of the star wars prophecies are actually part of the storyline, they seem to be tacted on bullshit that everyone ignores. Edit: Also lego movie had the best use of prophecy. One character just made it up to give everyone hope. Shwqa fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 18:41
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Shwqa posted:Starwars prophecy always confuses me. "Balance to the force" would imply equal parts jedi and sith. No it doesn't because the Dark Side is a fundamental imbalance, akin to cancer or a tumor, not a natural part of the order. That is the stated intention. The Dark Side is akin to being a lich or some other horrible non-life, not the flip side of a coin. It even ends up turning you into a shambling yellow-eyed monstrosity.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:56
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It makes zero sense that balance means "on side doesn't exists at all", but the prophecy is just, like the rest of the prequels, lazily written, so I wouldn't think too much about it.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:02
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The "Balance of the Force" thing was always about philosophical balance, not numerical balance and I always shake my head when people talk about the latter. Maybe if Lucas had used "Harmony of the Force" or similar, people would've gotten the right idea and none of these silly discussions would've happened. Or "Stability" or "Equilibrium". Kyte fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 19:02
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A good prophecy should be more than heavy handed foreshadowing. It should reveal something about the characters through how they react to this future information. The bog standard prophecy of the Chosen One usually fails because it is a throwaway call to adventure, one which is often refused until the actual story starts the hero down their path. If the story and characters would remain unchanged without the prophecy, then there shouldn't be one. (Star Wars tangent: the prequels go one further. The prophecy does not affect the plot or characters in universe, and no one even tells the audience what it actually says beyond Windu's vague reference to balance. Pleas of "You were the Chosen One!" fall flat when we don't really have the information to judge if he is in fact the Chosen One or what that Chosen One was supposed to do.) That's not true of OotS. The Oracle likes to give out technically accurate and functionally useless answers. This makes the scene less about the prophecies and more to do with the questioners themselves. Of course people have latched on to trying to guess the future, but those tiny hints at things to come weren't really the point. There are really only two prophecies driving things: Belkar's last breath and Durkon's return. The former has been key to Roy's thought process of late, while the latter is the classic self-fulfilling tragedy we're currently watching play out. In my mind, both have worked well for the story.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:07
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ImpAtom posted:No it doesn't because the Dark Side is a fundamental imbalance, akin to cancer or a tumor, not a natural part of the order. That is the stated intention. If one didn't want to bring the idea of a coin, it shouldn't have been called the dark side. A name like "the corruption of the force" or "the perversion of the force" wouldn't make it sound like something equal and complementary to the Jedi-approved use.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:38
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Cat Mattress posted:If one didn't want to bring the idea of a coin, it shouldn't have been called the dark side. A name like "the corruption of the force" or "the perversion of the force" wouldn't make it sound like something equal and complementary to the Jedi-approved use. It really doesn't. The Light Side of the Force is not actually used in the films (until the new film where they do mention The Light.) It's just "The Force" and "The Dark Side." The light stuff is mostly from video games and stuff like that, not the films itself.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:42
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I haven't called it the Light Side either, just the "Jedi-approved use" of the Force. Calling it the "Dark Side" automatically implies a "Light Side", which is why it's a bad name if the Dark Side isn't something that was supposed to exist. That's all my point is.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:51
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e X posted:It makes zero sense that balance means "on side doesn't exists at all", but the prophecy is just, like the rest of the prequels, lazily written, so I wouldn't think too much about it. It's because the Dark Side is misleadingly named, it's one aspect in which the Sith are rhetorically winning. The Dark Side is not a valid component of the Force, it's a metaphysical oil spill or a cancer. It's a result of misusing the Force, not an aspect of the Force itself. Cat Mattress posted:I haven't called it the Light Side either, just the "Jedi-approved use" of the Force. Calling it the "Dark Side" automatically implies a "Light Side", which is why it's a bad name if the Dark Side isn't something that was supposed to exist. That's all my point is. There is a reason no Jedi actually ever says the Light Side. Really this should have never been particularly confusing to anyone because the Dark Side, in all presentations ever, is about being an impulse driven controlled-by-your-emotions Super rear end in a top hat and that's basically objectively bad, and no logically consistent view of the Force could advocate this as something that Space God would say "yeah we need some of this to balance things out". It's a nonsense position. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 19:55
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