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I still like the movie, but I still can't for the life of me understand why the Starkiller Base plotline needed to be in there. You could take it out completely and everything else could go essentially the same, and you'd have time to flesh out the search for Luke, why he's gone and why he's needed (which is the true thrust of the story anyway). That time would also be well spent explaining a little more about where Kylo Ren is coming from. What he does at the end is very sad, but only in concept and because of our prior attachment to the character he kills. It would have a lot more weight if we had a better idea of what's brought Ren to that point beyond "this is what I have to do to level up". I'm sure that more of that backstory is going to be revealed later, but creating a mystery for future installments isn't worth undercutting the story at hand to the extent that it does . That's TV logic at work.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I still don't get why people don't just watch the laserdiscs. It's not actually as high quality as you can get. Here is a 10 minute youtube about something termed "DeSpecialized" version. It explains a good bit about all the different transfers and different editions and what is is wrong with them. It also has a bunch of comparison shots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfLX_TMduY Someone who knows more about it than me can explain. However having watched the DVD, Blu Ray, and Laser Disc versions there is absolutely a difference if you are watching it on a HDTV. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 05:54
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PT6A posted:It wasn't visual splendour, though. It was garbage, much in the same way that a Big Mac is garbage next to a well-prepared meal. It's enjoyable on some level, but after the fact you realize it's just poo poo in comparison to what you could've had. The original Millennium Falcon looked so much better and more awesome than that shiny dildo Naboo ship ever did. Movies aren't food. You're not supposed to put it in your mouth.
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Jan 6, 2016 06:00
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Also:Red posted:My least favorite thing about the prequels are the shiny, useless objects.    quote:- The cloners on Kamino, and their architecture       quote:- The palaces on Naboo          quote:- The looooong chase scenes in traffic on Coruscant in AotC      quote:- Dexter Jettster's 50s diner        quote:None of them mean anything, they're just pretty because the CGI technology allowed it. Obviously, this is complete bullshit. What actually happened is that the filmmakers came up with ideas that happened to interest them, and then did their best to get those ideas onto the screen using whatever method made the most sense. The main benefit of CGI being an option is that the PT filmmakers weren't limited in their imaginations--which is a good thing. Imagination is actually good. (A controversial stance in this day and age, I know.) TFA's filmmakers', on the other hand, clearly were quite limited in their imaginations, most likely due to their choice to base most of their design decisions around whether or not something could be achieved using practical effects. And it shows, because TFA is a very visually unimaginative movie. This is just sad:  Strangely enough, even the OT had better practical aliens than this. Even the prequels had better practical aliens than this. I can only conclude that the atmosphere in TFA's design department must have been intrinsically creatively stifling. That's usually what happens when you place arbitrary limits on creative peoples' imaginations.
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Jan 6, 2016 06:59
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They look pretty gnarly to me.
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Jan 6, 2016 07:08
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Restraint is a good thing. The prequels had some truly wretched alien design. Jar Jar, Dexster, those pod racer aliens, the Jedi Council members. Just awful awful stuff. Like they were designed by a little kid.
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Jan 6, 2016 07:14
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Phylodox posted:They look pretty gnarly to me. From a Star Wars standpoint, they're all just so utterly generic. I don't see a single thing there that grabs me and makes me say, "Wow, that's weird. I've never seen anything like that before." There's nothing with the staying power of, say, this dude:  This dude's memorable. He's bizarre. He's got personality. He doesn't look like anything else that's ever been in Star Wars. Same goes for this guy:  Yaws posted:Restraint is a good thing. The prequels had some truly wretched alien design. Jar Jar, Dexster, those pod racer aliens, the Jedi Council members. Just awful awful stuff. Like they were designed by a little kid. They were actually good, though, is the thing. I'm so sorry. Also, Star Wars is for kids. It is a childish series. One of the main characters is a big hairy alien dog named Chewie who hangs out with a manchild who thinks girls are icky. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 07:31
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this thing was done with imagination and this other thing wasn't and my evidence is suck my dick that's my evidence
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Jan 6, 2016 07:39
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The Empire killed all the fun-looking aliens.
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Jan 6, 2016 07:42
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BrianWilly posted:The Empire killed all the fun-looking aliens. The First Order is clearly the audience insertion for adult fans, so you're actually spot on with this observation.
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Jan 6, 2016 07:45
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it took a lot of wllpower for me not to give Hux a roman salute during his speech. I was relieved when the stormtroopers raised their fists and relieved the tension.
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Jan 6, 2016 07:57
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Cnut the Great posted:They were actually good, though, is the thing. I'm so sorry. I'll concede that the second guy you posted was memorable. That voice was dope. Yaws fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 07:58
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"These designs are better and more imaginative because I like them more" isn't really a strong argument and ranting about how clearly TFA was a stifled production with no imagination and the prequels were a magical conucopia of delight comes across more like thinly veiled fanboyism than anything else. The designs in TFA were significantly more memorable to me than a large chunk of the PT. Even ones which are kind of awkward were awkward in an interesting way like the weird jerky lovely robot who called for the Resistance. That was an unusual standout choice because of how it was intentionally awkward and strange. The argument that they're unimaginative is pretty dismissive and frankly a lot of your arguments about TFA seem pretty heavily tinged by "George Lucas didn't make it so I will instantly assume the worst about everything." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 08:02
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Red posted:- Dexter Jettster's 50s diner 
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Jan 6, 2016 08:04
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dexters diner is the most egregious thing in the prequels. My problem with it is not that a diner exists in star wars, but that it was realized as an Earth 50s diner including an alien wearing strangely earth like clothing and robots modeled after 50s diner waitresses. Instead of being a diner, but making sense in the star wars universe (like how Maz's watering hole & the mos eisley cantina look like plausible bars for their environs) this loving 50s diner looks like someone took a johnny rockets & put a stupid looking CGI alien in it. Like there are no robots in the OT that are so clearly modelled after a very earth like concept like a 50s diner waitress robot. Obi-wan meeting an old friend whos an alien, sure. Alien wears apron & wife beater despite having 4 arms and being a weird frog guy? gently caress off. Edit: Theres a very specific alien that walks in and out of dexters diner in the background that shows up a lot in the prequels, and he sucks. He sucks a big fat one compared to Maz, fat guy with girlfriend, insect trio, and the corsair & his pegleg partner he lovingly walks out to their ship
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Jan 6, 2016 08:05
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Jerkface posted:dexters diner is the most egregious thing in the prequels. My problem with it is not that a diner exists in star wars, but that it was realized as an Earth 50s diner including an alien wearing strangely earth like clothing and robots modeled after 50s diner waitresses. Star Wars has always had throwbacks to things Lucas likes. The diner scene was just a little more on the nose than the other references. I could see how people might find it a bit jarring though.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:14
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Cnut the Great posted:From a Star Wars standpoint, they're all just so utterly generic. I don't see a single thing there that grabs me and makes me say, "Wow, that's weird. I've never seen anything like that before." You're obviously just looking for something very different from Star Wars than I am. I'm sorry that the franchise looks like it's heading more in my direction than yours. But then again, you had at least three movies.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:14
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:Star Wars has always had throwbacks to things Lucas likes. The diner scene was just a little more on the nose than the other references. I could see how people might find it a bit jarring though. I think a good chunk of it is that the stuff Lucas references is generally obscure enough that it comes across as fresh to people or it is obfuscated enough that you're not seeing it. (And I don't consider this a flaw because a lot of great directors do it.) The diner stands out just because it is both instantly recognizable and barely obfuscated which is actually rather odd. Honestly, it never stood out that much to me so I was sort of surprised when I first heard it was one of the big 'this sucks' scenes to a lot of people. Phylodox posted:You're obviously just looking for something very different from Star Wars than I am. I'm sorry that the franchise looks like it's heading more in my direction than yours. But then again, you had at least three movies. I really don't think it is to be honest. It executes a lot of the same kind of humor as the OT and parts of the PT but not in the same way Lucas would have. The first thing Finn does when he gets to the settlement is rush over and drink the gross water that the nasty monster is drinking from while making silly faces. That got a ton of laughs from kids in the theater and it's frankly something that would have fit right in the PT but either audience goodwill or a better execution means that nobody even really brings it up. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 08:17
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I didn't mind the diner. It actually gave a bit of personality and charm to the static existence of Coruscant. This is honestly the first I've heard of anyone disliking the diner because it was modeled after Earth things? There are a whole lot of things in Star Wars that are very noticeably modeled after Earth things. poo poo, there was a rock song in RotJ.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:25
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the dance fights in those Auralnauts videos are amazing, AMAZING
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Jan 6, 2016 08:28
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"Cnut posted:Strangely enough, even the OT had better practical aliens than this. Even the prequels had better practical aliens than this. I can only conclude that the atmosphere in TFA's design department must have been intrinsically creatively stifling. That's usually what happens when you place arbitrary limits on creative peoples' imaginations. Even ignoring that your argument boils down to "I dont like practical effect aliens, give me an unnaturally smooth giant face any day" (which is both entirely fine, and also entirely irrelevant to any sort of objective quality for either), the last sentence is wrong to such an absurd extent that it's amazing that you managed to type it out without any doubts in the back of your mind pleading to erase it. An indescribable number of artists in a trenendous selection of genre's and mediums have defined themselves by the subversion of their arbitrary limitations and innovation within said limitations. In fact, there exist many case examples of artists who faded away after their restrictions were limited and the full breadth of their creative mind was found limited and wanting. In short: its ok to like agile smooth aliens, don't try to shoehorn in false facts to add weight to your personal opinion.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:33
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ImpAtom posted:The argument that they're unimaginative is pretty dismissive and frankly a lot of your arguments about TFA seem pretty heavily tinged by "George Lucas didn't make it so I will instantly assume the worst about everything." This seems like the reoccuring theme in a lot of TFA critique so far. It seems like arguing about the PT for so long has poisoned their personal wells to the extent that "people who like the OT like this movie" brings immediate cause to oppose themes, metaphors, arcs, and visual elements they would otherwise praise.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:38
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JonathonSpectre posted:Darth Vader screaming "NOOOOO!" when saving Luke's life is loving unforgivable to me. That scene is my favorite part of any movie ever and for me it's really unlikely it will ever be topped by anything. you just hate his changes because you didn't grow up with star wars
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Jan 6, 2016 09:08
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-ing but I don't care. gently caress that change. It didn't ruin my childhood or destroy Star Wars but it was 100% unnecessary and detracts from the scene rather than enhancing it.
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ThePutty posted:you just hate his changes because you didn't grow up with star wars I grew up with star wars and the ROTJ "nooooooooo" is loving terrible
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Jan 6, 2016 09:17
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:Star Wars has always had throwbacks to things Lucas likes. The diner scene was just a little more on the nose than the other references. I could see how people might find it a bit jarring though. Throwbacks, references, of course. Is anything as blatant as a literal 50s diner waitress robot that even talks like a 50s diner waitress? In the OT? God that loving diner just gets my goat every time. I honestly dont think theres anything like it in the OT, but I am sure some enterprising PT defender will bring something up (which is ok, I enjoy all the debates!)
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Jan 6, 2016 09:19
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berserker posted:I grew up with star wars and the ROTJ "nooooooooo" is loving terrible not only are you wrong but you're just watching star wars wrong. it's actually making fun the audience because star wars is just a satire
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Jan 6, 2016 09:20
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straight up brolic posted:A we sure that Marky Mark is a good guy...? Would Luke going bad be too edgy for the franchise? It's hard to say for certain. If memory serves, Lucas always was fine with approving EU stuff that had Luke go to the dark side, as long as he made his way back to the light eventually. I could see Disney wanting to protect the character so they can have a Luke walk around their theme parks, or, turning him into a villain so they can write him off and elevate their own creations.
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Jan 6, 2016 09:28
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The alien designs in TFA - and we are talking about design here, not just "I liek it" - are weak because they do not evoke concepts. That Dex and his waitresses immediately evoke "1950s diner" is not a flaw but the entire point. That's good design. We can go further and note Dex's prison tats, how the waitresses were built to look nonthreateningly 'sexy', and how the place has a distinctly 'human' design. Dex is an ex-con trying to scrape out an existence on a human-dominated planet, and he takes out his frustrations on his robot "helpers". We immediately understand him as loveable but flawed. One character that's always stuck with me, from the New Hope cantina sequence, is the little bat-faced dude in a spacesuit who's kind-of struggling to grab a drink. I have no knowledge whatsoever of his wookiepedia backstory. You just immediately understand the concept "wingless bat who uses a ship to fly". You can intuit that he spends all his time in space, and only occasionally lands to grab a bit of food. The basic concept raises Nagel's question of What Is it Like to Be a Bat? That's good design. The TFA aliens are never onscreen long enough to make any impression, and the crummy dolly shot through the crowd blurs them into unrecognizability. But, even without those handicaps, the aliens are mostly just scrunchy-faced dudes with unusual proportions. And there's not a single shot in the film that actually showcases the strange movements that would result from those proportions. They're also all wearing burlap sacks, or might as well be. When Finn leaves with the red guy, what sort of crew is he joining? Red dude looks like a sentai character or something? Weak sauce.
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Jan 6, 2016 09:30
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I suspect if Luke goes bad it will be like "tragic reaction to the actions of others have driven him over the edge" rather than "he's become super double evil." I also doubt they're going to kill him without him mentoring at least Rey or Rey and Finn because otherwise the Jedi actually are extinct.
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Jan 6, 2016 09:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:When Finn leaves with the red guy, what sort of crew is he joining? Red dude looks like a sentai character or something? Weak sauce. Sentai guy is lovingly helping his disabled buddy to their ship, has a cool costume with a hat helmet that reminds me of a musketeer. Its a pretty evocative design and is just as visually distinct & imagination fueling as any OT / PT design. Think you're being unfair to that dude. Considering you just gushed about a little bat gremlin.
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Jan 6, 2016 09:34
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I always thought the 50s diner scene was more of a character moment for Obi-wan, as in he probably frequents these places often and he really enjoys it, possibly some sort of pretentious prince among the peasants thing. The likeness of the diner to that of an earth diner was irrelevant to the scene but added a bit of extra charm imo
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Jan 6, 2016 09:36
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corn in the fridge posted:I always thought the 50s diner scene was more of a character moment for Obi-wan, as in he probably frequents these places often and he really enjoys it, possibly some sort of pretentious prince among the peasants thing. The likeness of the diner to that of an earth diner was irrelevant to the scene but added a bit of extra charm imo
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Jan 6, 2016 09:50
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Nessus posted:I read it as an indicator that Obi-wan was in fact a normal guy who happened to be a warrior monk rather than some brainwashed al-Qaeda cultist like people seem to like to read him as. He has a friend who runs a diner who he speaks to as an equal and a peer (if while engaging in some droid racism). Obi-wan sees himself as a guy who goes to these places and is just, you know, there. How true is this? We don't know. But in a lot of ways I think Obi-wan is meant to be John Doe for the Jedi Order. The novelization spends quite a bit more time on this scene, and has a similar interpretation of that event as you. Although I don't know if this counts anymore?
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Jan 6, 2016 10:03
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But Anakin doesn't seem to have the sorts of interests and connections that Obi-Wan does, even after he finished his training. This either indicates that Anakin was too maladjusted to form friendships like Obi-Wan...or perhaps Obi-Wan did not do a good job impressing upon Anakin the importance of doing so, nor did he foster in Anakin the requisite social acumen. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 10:07
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maybe george lucas didn't really give it much thought
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Jan 6, 2016 10:09
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Nessus posted:I read it as an indicator that Obi-wan was in fact a normal guy who happened to be a warrior monk rather than some brainwashed al-Qaeda cultist like people seem to like to read him as. He has a friend who runs a diner who he speaks to as an equal and a peer (if while engaging in some droid racism). Obi-wan sees himself as a guy who goes to these places and is just, you know, there. How true is this? We don't know. But in a lot of ways I think Obi-wan is meant to be John Doe for the Jedi Order. I have no doubt that this is how Obi-wan views himself and his place in places like the diner and such but there's no escaping Obi-wans class and rank. Idk I have no idea what Obi-wans backstory is from before he joined the Jedi order
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Jan 6, 2016 10:17
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corn in the fridge posted:I have no doubt that this is how Obi-wan views himself and his place in places like the diner and such but there's no escaping Obi-wans class and rank. Idk I have no idea what Obi-wans backstory is from before he joined the Jedi order Well he was an infant before he joined, surely. If Anakin was pushing it agewise they must basically be bringing the padawans in from birth.
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Jan 6, 2016 10:25
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corn in the fridge posted:I have no doubt that this is how Obi-wan views himself and his place in places like the diner and such but there's no escaping Obi-wans class and rank. Idk I have no idea what Obi-wans backstory is from before he joined the Jedi order he was like one or two years old and the jedi took him from his parents to join their magical space cult the end
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Jan 6, 2016 10:25
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NecroMonster posted:he was like one or two years old and the jedi took him from his parents to join their magical space cult the end Yeah thats pretty much what I figured. He might treat diner alien as an equal and a peer but he still talks posh. If he spends any of his free time in these places it's because he gains some sense of moral superiority from it or whatever. You see it again in the cantina scene in ANH. He loves it.
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Jan 6, 2016 10:44
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Jerkface posted:Throwbacks, references, of course. Is anything as blatant as a literal 50s diner waitress robot that even talks like a 50s diner waitress? In the OT? God that loving diner just gets my goat every time. I honestly dont think theres anything like it in the OT, but I am sure some enterprising PT defender will bring something up (which is ok, I enjoy all the debates!) "jumping through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops" is pretty bad dusting what? space crops? are there really bi-plane crop dusters on tattooine? did han know luke was a moisture farmer and then assume he would know anything about organic crops on other worlds? before you defend that line stop for a sec and realize anything you say about it can also apply to dexter's diner also it's kinda weird that there's so much disagreement with Cnut and SMG about a pretty unambiguous truth about the OT and PT alien designs being more interesting than TFA. Aside from the kickin' rad resistance robot guy there wasn't a memorable alien in the TFA cantina compare that to even to the ANH cantina where we've got creepy doctor guy with hosed up face, bat dude, the "grey", the werewolf, etc the only ones I can remember from TFA are the ones the camera actually "features", and even then they're not super interesting: big fat bossk and his asajj ventress lookalike, robot resistance bot and red-head guy finn goes with for fucks sake, the medical droid who helps luke in ESB is more interesting insofar as he makes a larger impression again i say this as a huge star wars sperg who otherwise liked TFA Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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