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serious gaylord posted:I think if you make a song and dance about wanting open and honest debate in your cabinet to then turn around and sack people like Pat Mcfadden for having the wrong opinions is a bit much. Pish. "Open & honest debate" has consequences. If you take an open debate & use it to longingly dream of the days when John Reid was stamping on civil liberties, fine. You have nostalgia from when Labour was in government. But I think you've mistaken "open & honest" debate for a free reign to slate the leader, which it was never meant to be. It always sounded more to me like wanting to move away from the presidential style of Blair & move back to a proper cabinet, where policy was actually discussed & the leader actually listened to his cabinet colleagues. On this day in 1946 the first ever general election was held in Vietnam. No idea who got what percentage of the vote because the distribution of seats had been awarded beforehand. The Vietnam Worker's Party were awarded 182 of 302 seats in total. The French obviously opposed the election. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 12:23
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Tesseraction posted:Ah yes, by kicking out the two nobodies that people in this thread suspect are the ones leaking memos and briefs, he has absolutely stifled dissent. Poor Hilary Benn, we'll mi-- waitaminute No, that just shows he ultimately isn't in control of the party and can't get rid of Benn without causing the party to self destruct. That he's only been able to remove 'two nobodies' as you put it says it all. Never mind the fact that the ramifications for kicking out said two nobodies are still being felt.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:24
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Pissflaps posted:The fact that the question he asked amounted to a 'free goal' against Corbyn is another reason why he is a bad choice for leader. The question amounted to "Will the Prime Minister agree that our foreign policy never has any consequences and therefore bomb, baby, bomb?" This makes Corbyn a bad leader because
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Jan 6, 2016 12:24
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serious gaylord posted:No, that just shows he ultimately isn't in control of the party and can't get rid of Benn without causing the party to self destruct. That he's only been able to remove 'two nobodies' as you put it says it all. Never mind the fact that the ramifications for kicking out said two nobodies are still being felt. Still being felt, not even a day later. Truly a shockwave to define a generation.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:25
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Let Corbyn step down now. Give the leadership to Hilary Benn. Lose in 2020 anyway and blame it on Hilary Benn being too left wing. Rinse and repeat.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:27
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Tesseraction posted:Still being felt, not even a day later. Truly a shockwave to define a generation. I guess we'll see how many other people resign then won't we. Political own goals seem to be Corbyns speciality of late.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:28
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Gonzo McFee posted:Let Corbyn step down now. Give the leadership to Hilary Benn. Lose in 2020 anyway and blame it on Hilary Benn being too left wing. It's going to be hard for anyone to reverse the damage done by the Corbyn exercise in time for 2020. It's damage limitation at this point.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:30
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I'm not going to pretend this reshuffle isn't a spectacular gently caress-up.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:30
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I joined the Labour Party after Corbyn's election. I'm now tempted to cancel my membership...
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Jan 6, 2016 12:30
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Pissflaps posted:It's going to be hard for anyone to reverse the damage done by the Corbyn exercise in time for 2020. It's damage limitation at this point. Lol get hosed.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:33
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If you think Corbyn is damaging the party then I recommend you imagine Liz Kendall's handling of the Syrian airstrike vote. To remind you, she voted for airstrikes.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:36
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Pissflaps posted:It's going to be hard for anyone to reverse the damage done by the Corbyn exercise in time for 2020. It's damage limitation at this point. You are Peter Mandelson & I claim my £5.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:36
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Pissflaps posted:It's going to be hard for anyone to reverse the damage done by the Corbyn exercise in time for 2020. It's damage limitation at this point. You misspelled 'May general election'. And are also a bellend. Hope that helps! Edit: I note that this position allows you to blame Corbyn for literally any bad news relating to Labour up to 2020 even if he were to step down immediately. Do we have a Blairite-speak at all? Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 12:41
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Kegluneq posted:You misspelled 'May general election'. And are also a bellend. Hope that helps! There isn't a general election in May.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:45
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Pissflaps posted:There isn't a general election in May. Do I have to point out that you used the past tense?
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Jan 6, 2016 12:47
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Tesseraction posted:I'm not going to pretend this reshuffle isn't a spectacular gently caress-up. Well, that makes it sound like something like this was avoidable.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:49
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Gonzo McFee posted:Lol get hosed. sadly we all will be getting hosed by continuing conservative government
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Jan 6, 2016 12:53
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Kegluneq posted:Do I have to point out that you used the past tense? Corbyn's leadership up to this point has already happened. What's wrong with using the past tense to describe the effect of it up until now?
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Jan 6, 2016 12:54
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"Can I ask the prime minister to reject the view that sees terrorist acts as always being a response or a reaction to what we in the West do? Does he agree with me that such an approach risks infantilising the terrorists and treating them as children when the truth is they are adults entirely responsible for what they do. No one forces them to kill innocent people in Paris or Beirut and unless we are clear about that we will fail even to be able to understand the threat we face let alone confront it and ultimately overcome it." This is dumb. It is simplistic and dumb. Regardless of whether you are pro or against Corbyn this is dumb. It is dualistic, absolutist and dumb. It's not a case of either terrorists responsible for actions or West responsible for terrorist actions. Anyone who can think in such black and white terms has no place as an MP because they are contributing further to the dumbing down of politics in this country. Dude had to go for that reason, in my mind. Saying that, on that logic you would have to fire the majority of MPs because apparently they are all equally as dumb as each other. We are a horrible, myopic little island aren't we? TLDR: The truth is somewhere in the middle.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:55
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Pissflaps posted:Corbyn's leadership up to this point has already happened. What's wrong with using the past tense to describe the effect of it up until now? Pissflaps posted:There isn't a general election in May.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:56
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It's funny because I'm going to blame the Blairites for loving up any chance of Corbyn trying to get a positive message out when he was elected or even just letting him trip himself up without their help. Since the start it has been confused infighting and if they had just let him make his own mistakes then we would at least be able to say that it was definitely his fault and maybe we should have gone for a Blairbot. As it is, all they have succeeded in doing is worsening the divisions within the party, because they have absolutely not been winning over the left with their antics, and maybe made Corbyn more unpopular than he would have been. The Labour party is hosed, this country is hosed and the world is going to gently caress itself very soon because everyone is too lazy and selfish to do anything about climate change.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:56
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OvineYeast posted:Well, that makes it sound like something like this was avoidable. Not every gently caress-up is avoidable. Sometimes the icy road is the only way around the mountain.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:58
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Guavanaut posted:Because it means you can't say He said Kegluneq posted:You misspelled 'May general election'. And are also a bellend. Hope that helps! in my post Pissflaps posted:It's going to be hard for anyone to reverse the damage done by the Corbyn exercise in time for 2020. It's damage limitation at this point. I assumed he meant to substitute the text in his post for the '2020' in mine. Which doesn't make much sense but then substituting it anywhere else doesn't either.
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Jan 6, 2016 12:59
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haakman posted:This is dumb. It is simplistic and dumb. Regardless of whether you are pro or against Corbyn this is dumb. It is dualistic, absolutist and dumb. It's not a case of either terrorists responsible for actions or West responsible for terrorist actions. Anyone who can think in such black and white terms has no place as an MP because they are contributing further to the dumbing down of politics in this country. Hence why I have no problem with him receiving the arseward boot. The man is an idiot, plain and simple.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:00
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Pissflaps posted:He said What the hell are you on about? The general election last May, and the campaign leading up to it was a complete disaster for Labour. If you think Labour's problems began with Corbyn winning the leadership contest you are frankly deluded. My edit should have made it pretty clear that I wasn't talking about changing 2020 anyway.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:04
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Cerv posted:sadly we all will be getting hosed by continuing conservative government Are you prepared to vote and campaign for a Labour party that promises tough immigration controls and an EU exit (the only way of achieving reduced immigration)? Only 15% of voters agree with Labour on immigration. Fifteen percent! Labour won't win another general election until they give up on an immigration policy that only the hardcore far left in the UK support.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:06
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Kegluneq posted:What the hell are you on about? The general election last May, and the campaign leading up to it was a complete disaster for Labour. If you think Labour's problems began with Corbyn winning the leadership contest you are frankly deluded. No it's not clear at all. There are elections in May, but not a general one. General elections aren't the cause of damage, they're a measure of a party's popularity with the public. Would you suggest that the Lib Dem's problems were caused by their showing in the general election?
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Jan 6, 2016 13:07
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Pissflaps posted:I assumed he meant to substitute the text in his post for the '2020' in mine. Which doesn't make much sense but then substituting it anywhere else doesn't either. Makes good sense to me. Even if you don't agree with the premise, it parses as a sentence.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:08
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Guavanaut posted:"It's going to be hard for anyone to reverse the damage done by the May general election in time for 2020. It's damage limitation at this point." Sure it parses as a sentence but Pissflaps posted:General elections aren't the cause of damage, they're a measure of a party's popularity with the public. Would you suggest that the Lib Dem's problems were caused by their showing in the general election? it doesn't make any sense.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:09
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Labour were never going to win in 2020 and are extremely unlikely to win in 2025, regardless of the leader. Between a completely disengaged populace and a virulently right-wing media at total saturation, the Tories are going to run and run until there are bodies in the streets. The job of the Labour leader isn't to win elections at all costs, it's to keep some vague semblance of its left wing principles alive long enough that there's a party that isn't a right wing cheerleader when it happens, and if Labour has to become another right wing party to stay alive, I'd rather it die with dignity.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:09
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Look, when he said "you misspelled May General Election" he meant in place of "the Corbyn exercise", not "2020". DO YOU GET IT NOW
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Jan 6, 2016 13:10
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Hitler B. Natural posted:Look, when he said "you misspelled May General Election" he meant in place of "the Corbyn exercise", not "2020". DO YOU GET IT NOW I got that several posts ago. He's wrong.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:10
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Pissflaps posted:No it's not clear at all. There are elections in May, but not a general one. quote:General elections aren't the cause of damage, they're a measure of a party's popularity with the public. Would you suggest that the Lib Dem's problems were caused by their showing in the general election?
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Jan 6, 2016 13:11
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Pissflaps posted:I got that several posts ago. He's wrong. You're wrong.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:11
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Kegluneq posted:Okay, so now you're being wilfully dense. There is nothing temporally unusual about Corbyn's leadership, its just made things worse. I don't understand why this is a difficult thing to understand. Gonzo McFee posted:You're wrong. So the Lib Dem's plummeting popularity was caused not by their coalition partnership with the Tories and subsequent policy backtracking, but rather the general election. Got it.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:13
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Pissflaps posted:So the Lib Dem's plummeting popularity was caused not by their coalition partnership with the Tories and subsequent policy backtracking, but rather the general election. Got it. There are forms of damage other than falling popularity, you know.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:15
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serious gaylord posted:No, that just shows he ultimately isn't in control of the party and can't get rid of Benn without causing the party to self destruct. That he's only been able to remove 'two nobodies' as you put it says it all. Never mind the fact that the ramifications for kicking out said two nobodies are still being felt. Or maybe this is him taking control and doing exactly what you'd expect, which is dealing with seditious elements in the cabinet, and not punishing those who merely exercised their right to a difference of opinion during a free vote? I mean say he should take a harder line in everything, or whatever, but people complain about him being weak for not dealing with MPs who are working to undermine him, and then when he does something people complain about how there are 'ramifications' for taking action
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Jan 6, 2016 13:16
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OvineYeast posted:There are forms of damage other than falling popularity, you know. Are these other forms of damage caused by a general election?
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Jan 6, 2016 13:16
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Pissflaps posted:There is nothing temporally unusual about Corbyn's leadership, its just made things worse. I don't understand why this is a difficult thing to understand.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:17
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Pissflaps posted:I got that several posts ago. He's wrong. The thread lapped me. However, I highly doubt that you genuinely believe that General Elections can't cause damage as well as measure it. For example, yes I would suggest that the Lib Dems' current problems were caused by their near-genocide in May, which in turn was caused by Nick Clegg's loving face. Pissflaps posted:Are these other forms of damage caused by a general election? Falling physical influence, as with the Lib Dems, panicking and lurching to the right as almost happened with Labour, losing some of your more qualified MPs as happened to both.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:17
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