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Btw, when did Paradox change the forum system etc? My old account doesn't work anymore (obv) and I'm kinda curious.
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Jan 6, 2016 02:24
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Poil posted:According to the wiki, focusing on Odin as your deity when Norse gives you +0.1 horde unity. That's... interesting. Vikings on the steppes is kinda ridiculous though. 0.1 Horde Unity is nothing though. Plus it's sort of the least of your problems. Pellisworth posted:For what it's worth, Oirat is a pretty fun Horde start. Not quite as good NIs as Kazan (they have the generic set) but they're Tengri, so you can enact a decision for -1 RR and +2 Heathen Tolerance, plus go syncretic Hindu for another +2 Heathen Tolerance. You start with a god-king general (2/5/5/0) and a pretty good position as long as Ming doesn't step on you. Nonsense; syncretic Nehautl.
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Jan 6, 2016 02:32
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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How have you guys been starting off Kazan (or any other central asian horde) starts? I keep running into the same problems I did pre-Cossacks, which is that everything is a thunderdome, and seemingly no matter what I do, all neighboring tribes and Muscovy dogpile me within 2 years and just beat me senseless. I feel like if I got past those first few years and took out one neighbor I'd probably be okay, but I have no idea how to survive the opening given that I'm outnumbered 5 to 1 at best.
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Jan 6, 2016 03:12
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Restart until you get an opening where Uzbek and Timurids are friendly and not rivalled to each other, allowing you to ally them both. Make a copy of this save so you can just restart from there as required. Attack Nogai immediately, co-belligerent Crimea if possible. Butter up Poland, aiming for an alliance should they PU Lithuania. If Muscovy attacks you right off the bat, this can actually be a good thing (and how my current good run started); my allies were already kicking around, both being at war with Nogai (the Uzbeks separately), and they did a lot of the heavy lifting for me. After that I turned around and savaged the Golden Horde (who were abandoned by the Uzbeks), then started gobbling up all the Sunni land I could get my hands on, including turning on my former allies.
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Jan 6, 2016 03:28
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Palleon posted:How have you guys been starting off Kazan (or any other central asian horde) starts? I keep running into the same problems I did pre-Cossacks, which is that everything is a thunderdome, and seemingly no matter what I do, all neighboring tribes and Muscovy dogpile me within 2 years and just beat me senseless. I feel like if I got past those first few years and took out one neighbor I'd probably be okay, but I have no idea how to survive the opening given that I'm outnumbered 5 to 1 at best. It's one-half luck, really. You need a start where you can get your genocide-train rolling without getting stomped by Muscovy or Ming. Restart until you can dogpile Muscovy and/or Ming implodes, then endless war. Burn everything. And yeah, Horde Unity is a non-issue unless you're sitting at peace for decades a time, which ain't Horde Life.
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Jan 6, 2016 03:38
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Avoiding an estate disaster seems too easy (I haven't played a tribe yet, I don't know if they're different.) If you win a war and nudge one of the estates over 80% influence, you just easily revoke their ownership of some poo poo province you gave them in the past with no noticeable penalty. Maybe it should cost you MP to revoke provinces, depending on which estate you're doing it to. That sounds awfully Paradoxy.
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Jan 6, 2016 04:42
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With the tribes you can can easily get forced into a disaster by one particular event, which gives +20 Tribes influence. But the disaster is a total non-issue, you just wait 10 years for the modifier to expire, take the decision to remove them from power, and then buy 3 stability will all the free points you have. I've had it twice in my WC game, and it hasn't slowed me down at all.
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Jan 6, 2016 06:12
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Echoing that the diplomacy subscreens are a crime against good UI design, still love estates.
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Jan 6, 2016 10:23
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PittTheElder posted:Restart until you get an opening where Uzbek and Timurids are friendly and not rivalled to each other, allowing you to ally them both. Make a copy of this save so you can just restart from there as required. Attack Nogai immediately, co-belligerent Crimea if possible. Butter up Poland, aiming for an alliance should they PU Lithuania. If Muscovy attacks you right off the bat, this can actually be a good thing (and how my current good run started); my allies were already kicking around, both being at war with Nogai (the Uzbeks separately), and they did a lot of the heavy lifting for me. After that I turned around and savaged the Golden Horde (who were abandoned by the Uzbeks), then started gobbling up all the Sunni land I could get my hands on, including turning on my former allies. I thought I just got this start, then on day 5 Uzbek broke the alliance because they rivaled each other after game start :/ I did say gently caress it and just declared on Nogai anyway with both of them, but made the mistake of not giving Uzbek any land since they already broke my alliance, so why bother giving them what I promised? I guess the joke was on me since that prevented any alliance in any future offensive wars from wanting to join in since it gives a -1000 modifier of unknown length. Might try that start one more time and give them some land, just so I can keep pulling Timurids into wars against GH and Muscovy. Palleon fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 12:17
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Poil posted:It's kinda amusing to watch the AI pile in on the same country and suddenly really small and pathetically weak ones do it too but there aren't enough provinces for them to get any warscore and then the piled upon gets out of the other wars, raises a few mercs (about twice or thrice the size army) and just stomps all over them. My favourite is when the dogpile happens and weirdness occurs like AI Theodoro becoming a regional power.
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Jan 6, 2016 13:55
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Eej posted:My favourite is when the dogpile happens and weirdness occurs like AI Theodoro becoming a regional power.
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Jan 6, 2016 14:12
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Palleon posted:I thought I just got this start, then on day 5 Uzbek broke the alliance because they rivaled each other after game start :/ I did say gently caress it and just declared on Nogai anyway with both of them, but made the mistake of not giving Nogai any land since they already broke my alliance, so why bother giving them what I promised? I guess the joke was on me since that prevented any alliance in any future offensive wars from wanting to join in since it gives a -1000 modifier of unknown length. Might try that start one more time and give them some land, just so I can keep pulling Timurids into wars against GH and Muscovy. My best start so far was Muscovy declaring on me almost day 1. Managed to get most of the steppes except GH on my side and everything was easy after that. It took at least 4 tries to get to that good run though.
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Jan 6, 2016 15:40
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so the AI doesn't need favors to call me into wars, right? I've had allies call me within two years of forming our alliance. I've been getting really frustrated with allies in general and once I hit a certain point I just stop bothering because all they do is refuse to help me out while calling me in to their own offensive wars. They really only seem useful for defensive reasons, but I guess that's historically accurate. also, has anyone else had AI change their attitudes immediately after allying them? As Byzantium, I was trying to diplo-vassal Wallachia who would be friendly then turn hostile immediately after I allied and royal-marriaged them, and break the alliance. What's this about?
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Jan 6, 2016 16:45
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aeglus posted:My best start so far was Muscovy declaring on me almost day 1. Managed to get most of the steppes except GH on my side and everything was easy after that. It took at least 4 tries to get to that good run though. At least the benefit of these runs is I don't play hours before realizing it won't work, if things go to poo poo it happens very early.
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Jan 6, 2016 17:13
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shallowj posted:so the AI doesn't need favors to call me into wars, right? I've had allies call me within two years of forming our alliance. I've been getting really frustrated with allies in general and once I hit a certain point I just stop bothering because all they do is refuse to help me out while calling me in to their own offensive wars. They really only seem useful for defensive reasons, but I guess that's historically accurate. Had you marked any provinces as being of vital interest? If you had, Wallachia may have set the same provinces and broke the alliance due to that. It's really annoying how sharing a common rival leads to truce breaking because of that. I've stopped setting provinces as vital interest entirely because it's only good for having the ai break the alliance.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:51
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shallowj posted:so the AI doesn't need favors to call me into wars, right? I've had allies call me within two years of forming our alliance. I've been getting really frustrated with allies in general and once I hit a certain point I just stop bothering because all they do is refuse to help me out while calling me in to their own offensive wars. They really only seem useful for defensive reasons, but I guess that's historically accurate.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:54
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I formed a colonial nation as Florence, and now I'm Italy but my CN is still vaguely red and it's bugging me. Also if my allies could stop allying my rivals that'd be great too
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Jan 6, 2016 19:09
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Palleon posted:I thought I just got this start, then on day 5 Uzbek broke the alliance because they rivaled each other after game start :/ I did say gently caress it and just declared on Nogai anyway with both of them, but made the mistake of not giving Uzbek any land since they already broke my alliance, so why bother giving them what I promised? I guess the joke was on me since that prevented any alliance in any future offensive wars from wanting to join in since it gives a -1000 modifier of unknown length. Might try that start one more time and give them some land, just so I can keep pulling Timurids into wars against GH and Muscovy. You don't need to call your allies into everything. I called only the Timurids into my initial war against Nogai, and rapidly took all but 1 of their provinces bordering the Uzbeks. Uzbeks will declare war shortly afterwards anyway, calling in their usual ally the GH, which is good, because the Uzbeks won't give them any land, and that seems to tank trust between them and contribute to the Uzbeks not honouring the call to arms against you. I gave the Timurids one province in that first war, which hurts trust, but they won't break the alliance over it. It's important to keep the Uzbeks and Timurids around in the first few years to counter an early attack from Muscovy, but they're super collapse prone, and you'll be turning on them rapidly anyway.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:10
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Bort Bortles posted:Do you have Cossacks? If so, do you have the "Willing to join offensive wars" box checked? They should need the 10 favours or a promise of land before they can call you in. If you uncheck you can't be called at all.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:40
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Bort Bortles posted:Do you have Cossacks? If so, do you have the "Willing to join offensive wars" box checked? Unchecking that box is kind of a trap, it really pisses the AI off. The few times I tried it they broke their alliance with me before too long. We should be able to spend favors to decline an AI call to war without penalty (or maybe with a minor relations hit or something, depending on how expensive it is). Someone suggested it a few pages back and it's such a good idea.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:52
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PittTheElder posted:You don't need to call your allies into everything. I called only the Timurids into my initial war against Nogai, and rapidly took all but 1 of their provinces bordering the Uzbeks. Uzbeks will declare war shortly afterwards anyway, calling in their usual ally the GH, which is good, because the Uzbeks won't give them any land, and that seems to tank trust between them and contribute to the Uzbeks not honouring the call to arms against you. I gave the Timurids one province in that first war, which hurts trust, but they won't break the alliance over it. In this case I had called them both in because I knew Uzbek would break the alliance so I figured I would get some value out of them first rather than restart again for a new state (they weren't rivals at game start and I allied both but then around day 5 they did rival and lost one, so restored to day 1, day 3 wardec, day 5 lose alliance but they're already in the fight ).
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Jan 6, 2016 20:03
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shallowj posted:so the AI doesn't need favors to call me into wars, right? I've had allies call me within two years of forming our alliance. I've been getting really frustrated with allies in general and once I hit a certain point I just stop bothering because all they do is refuse to help me out while calling me in to their own offensive wars. They really only seem useful for defensive reasons, but I guess that's historically accurate. As far as I can tell, the AI does not have to play by the new diplomacy rules. Only human players do. If you ally with an AI nation, they can call you to war whenever they feel like, and they don't have to give you anything in the peace deal.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:27
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How do Favors work if you don't have The Cossacks running? I've made my first allies in a game and I apparently spent 10 favors to get Bukhara and Novgorod to beat up Muscovy with/for me as Ottomans, but I'm not really clear on how I got the favors (I allied Novgorod about a week before declaring the war) or how I'm supposed to replenish them. I've put off buying The Cossacks because of the gnashing of teeth in this thread but I'm having more fun than ever with the current state of the game and I'm closing in on 600 hours at this point.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:36
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FadingChord posted:How do Favors work if you don't have The Cossacks running? I've made my first allies in a game and I apparently spent 10 favors to get Bukhara and Novgorod to beat up Muscovy with/for me as Ottomans, but I'm not really clear on how I got the favors (I allied Novgorod about a week before declaring the war) or how I'm supposed to replenish them. As long as you're allied, favours will naturally tick up. The fastest (I think) is one per year, but its to do with the relative size of the countries. The other way to gain favours is to help your allies when you're called into their wars. You will gain an amount of favours somehow corresponding your participation score. If you're really getting in there and fighting big battles and sieging forts you can gain 15-20 favours from a war, if not more.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:43
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You gain Favors passively (1 per year?) while allied, and you earn them by assisting in your ally's wars.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:43
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Pellisworth posted:You gain Favors passively (1 per year?) while allied, and you earn them by assisting in your ally's wars. It's based on size relative to your ally (I assume based on army and navy). I wonder what's the "equal" strength rate? Anyway, I'm seeing people doing all these big, fast-conquering horde runs. How do you manage revolts? I feel like I must be doing something wrong.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:57
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Mr. Fowl posted:It's based on size relative to your ally (I assume based on army and navy). A big contributor for Kazan is their starting +2 Heathen Tolerance, I mentioned Oirat as they also can get the same by decision. That helps a lot in keeping things tame, eventually you will want to get Humanist. Conquer, raze, raise autonomy, get a -2 RR adviser and it's not too bad but you'll have some revolts you need to put down occasionally. Once you get Humanist online you mostly stop caring (take Admin ideas first). Edit: I haven't been bothering to convert anything.
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Jan 6, 2016 22:02
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Yeah, once you get Humanist (your 3rd idea pick) and get past 100k manpower / forcelimit, you just raise autonomy in all provinces, which is enough to drive unrest to 0. By the time the -10RR from raising autonomy wears off, the separatism is gone too, so no problems. In the beginning you don't want to be raising autonomy though, so you do need to stay on top of the rebels; try not to start anything if you know there's a big revolt coming. Don't be afraid to spend mil power to suppress revolts, there's always free mil points to be had. Sticking to Sunni land (or your Syncretist religion for Tengris) right off the bat is really helpful in the beginning, and you can use vassals to hold the Orthodox and Shia land you pick up. I tried to convert stuff, even taking religious ideas 5th, just to get the 'convert the whole world' achievement. But I missed it by about 10 years.
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Jan 6, 2016 23:38
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The other thing about Oirat specifically is you can go syncretic Hindu, which sounds goofy but is another +2 Heathen Tolerance, and most of your land is going to be non-Tengri and you'll be conquering into India so that's cool. If you're expanding at any decent pace (don't need to be too try-hard here) you're going to be drowning in DIP and MIL points and starved for ADM, so buy war exhaustion reduction and burn some MIL power on harsh treatment as necessary. Also, regarding Horde balance concerns, I don't think it'd be much of an issue in multiplayer. A large part of how ridiculous player-run hordes are is that the AI doesn't understand the steppe combat bonus, they will beeline for your nearest fort (or capital) then you just walk some cavalry into them and poof, gone. You're not going to be able to afford many forts as you're burning the world to sustain your expansion, but slap them down in flat terrain. Deserts are great for the high attrition. AI armies will try and siege your flatland forts, then you sweep in with your horsies and murder them. Another human player will be a lot smarter about engaging hordes on home territory.
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Jan 6, 2016 23:46
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MrBling posted:The other way to gain favours is to help your allies when you're called into their wars. You will gain an amount of favours somehow corresponding your participation score. If you're really getting in there and fighting big battles and sieging forts you can gain 15-20 favours from a war, if not more. I started a Najd run and somehow got 40 favours from the Ottos for helping them fight the Mamluks when all I did was occupy a few provinces and maybe wiped a few one-unit stacks, I don't think I even sieged any forts. Not that I'm complaining but it was weird.
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Jan 6, 2016 23:55
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Oh also, at high Loyalty the Tribes give -2 RR so not a bad idea to hand them newly conquered provinces, and the 50% minimum autonomy won't hurt so much. Just don't fly too close to the sun, Tribe revolts will gently caress you up. Edit: whoa what, are there syncretic faith-specific events? I just got a Brahmans vs. Shamans event as syncretic Tengri/Hindu Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 00:13
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Yeah, the tribes are amazing. -20% Cav cost and +20% manpower recovery, with a heap of free manpower every 10 years? In exchange for all this useless high autonomy land I already had and was getting nothing from anyway? Yes please. The disaster isn't too bad either, it's just +50% Idea Cost and +50% Tech Cost for the 10 years where you can't get rid of it, and -3 stability eventually. Definitely not worth tanking your loyalty to avoid it.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:19
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I mostly use estates for the province-specific bonuses, it's pretty easy to keep them at 60+ Loyalty. Influence stuff as needed, you can milk a lot of free points and such but I'm not really into that much min-maxing. newly conquered land goes to Clergy, Dhimmi, or Tribes as all give -2 RR, Clergy additionally +2% local missionary strength Nobility gets important forts (local +15% Fort Defense) and poo poo provinces I don't care about with a preference toward manpower Merchants get trade power provinces Give them their minimum provinces, buy their love with a small amount of prestige or cash every decade and favor events that keep Loyalty high and Influence fairly balanced. It's really not too tough. For me the best estate is the Clergy/Tribes, because you can slap -2 RR everywhere you need it. It might as well be a -2 national RR, it's great.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:29
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Estates are honestly just too good right now. Paradox is just handing out bonuses left and right. Maybe it would infuriate everyone, but I think that there need to be "decline of the estates" events in 1650 and 1750 to turn them into liabilities 
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Jan 7, 2016 00:41
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There being too many things to spend monarch points on and not enough ways to get them was something people constantly complained about last patch; I think it's good. I'm halfway between the idea that they should let you opt out of estates and that they should make them a central feature of the game though (tie tech to them etc). I think they have a huge amount of potential but I dunno how to make them not annoying for some people. Not having them right at the end of the UI thing would probably help.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:45
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I think the AI is broken in calculating war odds. The Ottomans are my ally and they have declared war five times in a row, within months of the truce going away. They declare on Austria, who is allied to Hungary, France, Russia, a powerful Milan, and the Emperor, Aachen, naturally protects Austria, who is allied with six other countries. Combined they are almost double our troop count. I just let him continue to lose territory and I'm sick of being at war so much that I ticked the "Join Offensive Wars" checkbox. Has anyone else noticed suicidal AI since this patch?
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Jan 7, 2016 01:55
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Pellisworth posted:The other thing about Oirat specifically is you can go syncretic Hindu, which sounds goofy but is another +2 Heathen Tolerance, and most of your land is going to be non-Tengri and you'll be conquering into India so that's cool. If you're vassal feeding you can manage admin points just fine.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:20
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There is a mechanic to coring that I've forgot: I just annexed Yarkand and want to declare war on Russia right away and occupy their territory and peace out the moment the coring is done. However, Russia owns some Yarkand cores. Will going to war with Russia stop my cores, since they own Yarkand cores? I forgot what scenario pauses you from coring provinces because of some third party having cores from the same country.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:22
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I think that you're good to go, I believe the only thing that stops you is if you're fighting against a country who has a core on a province you're coring. So the only way it'd be stopped is if Russia had cores on the provinces you'd be coring.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:32
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So if Russia had cores on the provinces I'm coring, coring would pause on those provinces while we're at war with each other. Got it, thanks.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:36
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