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Squizzle posted:The Republic is the dominant galactic polity, having toppled the Empire in Return of the Jedi. The First Order is an armed radical movement, which seeks to overthrow the Republic government and institute a state based on their extremist ideology. They either contain holdouts from the Empire, or admire the old Empire and emulate it to portray themselves as the successors to it. Plus, while there are a few Friends of the Rebellion still in power in the senate, the worst excesses of the Empire are starting to fade from memory. There are a number of senators that are either sympathetic to The New Order or have their own agenda that involves Cold War hostilities with The First Order.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:54
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Plus, while there are a few Friends of the Rebellion still in power in the senate, the worst excesses of the Empire are starting to fade from memory. There are a number of senators that are either sympathetic to The New Order or have their own agenda that involves Cold War hostilities with The First Order. Are you just making that up?
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Jan 3, 2016 00:05
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There's a number of novels that have come out spanning the time between Jedi and TFA where that could come from. I haven't read them so I can't really verify it but it makes sense. Post-Disney novels probably hold greater canon than old EU stuff did when they were being written.
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Jan 3, 2016 00:14
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It's mentioned in a deleted scene that still made it into the novelization. Maisie Richardson-Sellers, the dark-haired woman front and center in the Hosnian Prime scene, was Leia's envoy to the senate to try and stir them to action.
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Jan 3, 2016 00:32
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Nobody wants open war and a few people want the perks of a cold war, not a big stretch of the old suspension of disbelief.
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Jan 3, 2016 00:58
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I have heard people complain they with TFA had more politics in it. I want to beat them all with a rubber Jar Jar because that's what they hated about the prequels!
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Jan 3, 2016 05:20
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I think the call for more politics is because the Resistance's relationship with the (new) Republic isn't as well explained as it could've been. The open crawls IIRC states the the Republic "Supports" the Resistance while Hux's little nazi speech mentions the Republic lies (presumably about how much it supports/condones the Resistance's activities). You can kind of infer from this that the Resistance (and their name and rag-tag nature) is an unsanctioned paramilitary force operating in First Order territory without being an official part of the Republic. The Republic openly supporting the Resistance would be a violation of the apparent peace terms between the FO and the Republic. At least this is what I interpreted from the movie, but others might not make those connections (or make other connections). Apparently there is a deleted scene of "politics" that might've given us a better explanation of this relationship. During the scene where (not sure if I should spoil this but just in case...) The Republic capital of Hosnian Prime is destroyed by the Starkiller, a woman prominently in the scene is wearing a Resistance Uniform. Before this scene where they rush out to a balcony to watch their impending doom in horror, this Resistance Officer was speaking to the Republic Senate on Leia's behalf, urging them to openly support the Resistance and go to war with the First Order who is doing evil stuff. The senate rebuffs her, claiming Leia is an old warhawk stuck in the past and the First Order isn't a real threat. Cue hyperspace laser death interrupting things.
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Jan 3, 2016 06:38
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Yeah, that single politics scene would've connected a lot of dots for me. None of that was spelled out clearly enough in the released film.
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Jan 3, 2016 12:50
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Discendo Vox posted:Yeah, that single politics scene would've connected a lot of dots for me. None of that was spelled out clearly enough in the released film. Yeah, the whole film suffers a bit from a lack of backstory to explain exactly how we got to this point after the fall of the empire and just what is going on beyond a sort retread of the original movie. It's good, but not as much as it could be and I can see why they're hesitant to spew too much politics after the prequels.
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Jan 3, 2016 13:35
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Geostomp posted:Yeah, the whole film suffers a bit from a lack of backstory to explain exactly how we got to this point after the fall of the empire and just what is going on beyond a sort retread of the original movie. To the point that I completely missed that the capital of the Republic gets starkilled. I thought it was just some fancy planet(s).
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Jan 3, 2016 18:00
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Well the movie is just A New Hope but more so, so they figured they could skip some plot points since you already know.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:21
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Yeah, Abrams said in an interview that he wanted to keep the political stage as vague as possible to mirror the open endedness of A New Hope. You hear words like galactic senate , Empire and Emperor but you have to infer a lot of their relationships. He also didn't want to tie Rian Johnson's hands by some five minute scene in case Rian came up with something better for the later films.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:57
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That's dumb, makes it hard to care if the stakes are vague.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:That's dumb, makes it hard to care if the stakes are vague. I know I couldn't bring myself to care much about those planets exploding because I didn't know anything about them aside from characters saying that they were apparently the entire republic was gone (which says a lot about how weak the republic apparently was). You have to establish something to get the audience invested in your setting.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:46
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quote:It is a period of civil war. We're actually told quite a bit here about who the players are and what the stakes are. Sure, it's not fleshed out, but we're told that the Rebels are a secretive group fighting against the Galactic Empire, the current ruling government. We're told that the Empire is oppressing the Galactic population. Meanwhile there's three state-like actors in TFA and none of them are really explained what they actually are doing. Hell, it's not even explained whether the First Order is a state or just a state-like entity!
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Jan 3, 2016 21:47
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Squizzle posted:To the point that I completely missed that the capital of the Republic gets starkilled. I thought it was just some fancy planet(s). I love that one named planet with the Senate on it gets blowed up, and also four other planets. No names, no idea if they're important or even inhabited.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:44
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I thought Hux said something about wiping out the whole system?
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Jan 4, 2016 00:47
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I thought Hux said something about wiping out the whole system? It's like if there was a movie where aliens threatened to blow up the Earth, and they made a sequel where new aliens threatened to blow up the Earth, and also Venus and Mercury.
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Jan 4, 2016 08:29
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Looks like the last two issues of the Vader Down arc are being released together this Wednesday.
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Jan 4, 2016 09:22
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boom boom boom posted:It's like if there was a movie where aliens threatened to blow up the Earth, and they made a sequel where new aliens threatened to blow up the Earth, and also Venus and Mercury. You could assume just from the premise of that movie that we had turned Venus and Mercury into colonies or something important to Earth and that would be why the evil aliens want to destroy them. Any explanation beyond that is fodder for the cutting room floor the second you need to trim something.
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Jan 4, 2016 09:27
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I liked Obi-Wan and Anakin, but I have a huge problem with it as I did with all the prequels. It makes the jedi's look really really stupid as they are hanging out with Palpatine acting obviously evil and corrupt,a nd they do not notice it. I thought they could sense the force and this powerful jedi is hiding under their nose. I know this is an issue that comes from the movies, but it one aspect of the comic that detracts from it.
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Jan 6, 2016 17:50
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My stance towards that is that intentionally or not, the prequel Jedis are dumb and decadent and in decline, because that's the only read that makes any sense.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:25
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zoux posted:My stance towards that is that intentionally or not, the prequel Jedis are dumb and decadent and in decline, because that's the only read that makes any sense. Then it makes all of them look bad as the worst offenders are Yoda and Obi-Wan, the teacher of Luke. Its just such bad writing that affects everything before A New Hope.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:31
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bobkatt013 posted:I liked Obi-Wan and Anakin, but I have a huge problem with it as I did with all the prequels. It makes the jedi's look really really stupid as they are hanging out with Palpatine acting obviously evil and corrupt,a nd they do not notice it. I thought they could sense the force and this powerful jedi is hiding under their nose. I know this is an issue that comes from the movies, but it one aspect of the comic that detracts from it. They sort of addressed this in Darth Plagueis, implying that powerful Sith can use the Dark Side to cloak themselves from the Jedi. Hence Yoda commenting "Clouded by the Dark Side, everything is." Essentially, the Dark Side is in such ascendence, that it makes detecting a Sith akin to picking out the scent of one specific turd in a manure pile. My metaphor got away from me and I apologize for it.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:18
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Ensign_Ricky posted:that it makes detecting a Sith akin to picking out the scent of one specific turd in a manure pile. aka as talking about the problems with the prequels.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:21
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bobkatt013 posted:Then it makes all of them look bad as the worst offenders are Yoda and Obi-Wan, the teacher of Luke. Its just such bad writing that affects everything before A New Hope. It's not really bad writing when it's the entire point - the Jedi are weak and foolish and are wrong on a number of things, hence not being able to tell the guy standing next to them is a Sith Master, hence Obi-Wan being so stubborn and stupid to completely rule out every thing he's told by one, even when it's 100% truth. And it's hardly like this kind of thing doesn't happen all the time in real life either, people just willfully refusing to accept facts and evidence even when all signs point to the contrary. The Emperor is only defeated when Luke ignores all the bullshit Yoda and Obi-Wan repeatedly tell him and trusts in his 'lost cause' dad to do the right thing. According to his mentors, that would never ever happen, and oh yeah, sacrifice your friends too. The Jedi were dicks all along.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:27
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Sentinel Red posted:It's not really bad writing when it's the entire point - the Jedi are weak and foolish and are wrong on a number of things, hence not being able to tell the guy standing next to them is a Sith Master, hence Obi-Wan being so stubborn and stupid to completely rule out every thing he's told by one, even when it's 100% truth. And it's hardly like this kind of thing doesn't happen all the time in real life either, people just willfully refusing to accept facts and evidence even when all signs point to the contrary. I think it's bad writing because I don't think that was the intent. Lucas doesn't really go in for shades of grey, he rejects any attempt to make the Force more complex than "obviously evil side" and "obviously good side".
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Jan 6, 2016 19:43
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zoux posted:I think it's bad writing because I don't think that was the intent. He could also be a bit more subtle then the way it was shown.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:46
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There isn't much that is subtle about the SW movies.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:54
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zoux posted:Lucas doesn't really go in for shades of grey, he rejects any attempt to make the Force more complex than "obviously evil side" and "obviously good side". That is because Shades of Grey don't really fit what the Force is. It's a religion. Like this isn't subtext it is stated text. It's a religion that gives you magical powers and some people continue to obey their god and others go "I can shoot lightning, gently caress that fucker" and the nature of the religion is not one where God directly smites you for doing that. All the 'but what if there are shades of grey" stuff is just a thinly-veiled attempt to have the cake of having superpowers without the obligation of following the rules behind them. It's the same mindset that gives you people who want to play paladins but attempt to rules lawyer their way out of having to follow the rules behind them. (Not saying you in particular are saying that, just that it is what tends to motivate the 'grey Jedi" stuff.)
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Jan 6, 2016 19:59
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ImpAtom posted:That is because Shades of Grey don't really fit what the Force is. Kreia was an advocate for these Grey Jedi, which is pretty much what you end up as in KOTOR II no matter what you choose. In other words, Grey Jedi are Sith who aren't cartoonishly evil. Space Protestants, or something to that effect.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:20
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KotoR 2 was pretty bad, and Avellone (who loves his shades of grey) doesn't understand The Force, IMO.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:40
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bobkatt013 posted:aka as talking about the problems with the prequels. Season two of Jessica Jones heading in unexpected directions. Re: Forcechat, I was super annoyed that it took me into my goddamn thirties to realize that the insanely strong implication of the original trilogy is that there are no generic Force powers: the reason that Vader can jam with the telekinesis and super-leaps and such is that he learned those things as a Jedi. The Emperor doesn't know any of those Jedi tricks; he only learned There prequels changed course on that pretty sharply, but it's so obvious in the classics that I'm still kicking myself for not realizing it waaaaaaay earlier.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:41
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Galaga Galaxian posted:KotoR 2 was pretty bad, and Avellone (who loves his shades of grey) doesn't understand The Force, IMO. You have a advanced case of the BadOpinions there mate, might want to get that looked at  Kidding aside, I think there's plenty of room for both sorts of stories/versions using "the Force". The Lucas...ian one where it's some weird pulpy mash-up of eastern Ying-Yang "Living Force, Two Sides In/Out of Balance" meets pure GOOD vs EVIL "and when I say Bring Balance To The Force I mean Kill All The Baddies", and the stories that try to have some sort of sliding scale / shades of grey caught in the middle / the Force as more of a tool that can be used for good/bad purposes (while still having a will of its own), the "We just thought too hard about this whole The Force business and whelp-" version. Depends on what the stories are trying to explore (or just action romp). Personally I found the prequel Jedi Order to be shown off in a little too simplistic/broad strokes to really showcase how decadent/corrupt/weak/bloated it had become, or otherwise make it clear how one dude could bring the whole house of cards down beyond the whole Dark Side Shroud / Order 66. There's certainly the outline for a good story there, just not delivered so well.
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Jan 6, 2016 22:02
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Pimpmust posted:Personally I found the prequel Jedi Order to be shown off in a little too simplistic/broad strokes to really showcase how decadent/corrupt/weak/bloated it had become, or otherwise make it clear how one dude could bring the whole house of cards down beyond the whole Dark Side Shroud / Order 66. There's certainly the outline for a good story there, just not delivered so well. Also the fact that it shows Jedi's as super competent in some points, and in others being easily killed.
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Jan 6, 2016 22:07
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Pimpmust posted:Kidding aside, I think there's plenty of room for both sorts of stories/versions using "the Force". The Lucas...ian one where it's some weird pulpy mash-up of eastern Ying-Yang "Living Force, Two Sides In/Out of Balance" meets pure GOOD vs EVIL "and when I say Bring Balance To The Force I mean Kill All The Baddies", and the stories that try to have some sort of sliding scale / shades of grey caught in the middle / the Force as more of a tool that can be used for good/bad purposes (while still having a will of its own), the "We just thought too hard about this whole The Force business and whelp-" version. Yeah, I think Lucas's idea was that the Force has this natural state of equilibrium which the Jedi maintain, but the presence of the Sith, who have grown more and more powerful up to the point where Palpatine is powerful enough that the Jedi can't even see that he exists, is what throws it out of balance, so "bringing balance to the Force" would be achieved by destroying the Sith. It is interesting, though, that none of the movies explicitly mention that there's such a thing as a "light side of the Force" which corresponds to the dark side up until TFA. The closest you get is in ROTJ when Luke tells Leia he's confident he can turn Vader back to "the good side", which you can probably take to mean a number of things. Sure, "the light side" gets mentioned a lot in the comics and books and games and whatever, but for a long time, the various supplementary materials wouldn't take about "the light side and the dark side", they'd talk about, "the Force and its dark side", which suggests that the dark side is something fundamentally unnatural, sort of like a malignant tumour growing on the Force.
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Jan 7, 2016 01:44
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My read of balance in the force would be your modern jedi need to accept that good and bad feelings in people are natural and ok and that trying to hide yourself off from emotion and love and feeling and the ups and downs that come with that is as bad and dumb as surrendering yourself to rage and passion . I hope that's what luke has been off figuring out in the new films, I guess.
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Jan 7, 2016 01:58
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ShineDog posted:My read of balance in the force would be your modern jedi need to accept that good and bad feelings in people are natural and ok and that trying to hide yourself off from emotion and love and feeling and the ups and downs that come with that is as bad and dumb as surrendering yourself to rage and passion . I think that was also one of Jolee's lessons in the first KOTOR game.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:12
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ShineDog posted:My read of balance in the force would be your modern jedi need to accept that good and bad feelings in people are natural and ok and that trying to hide yourself off from emotion and love and feeling and the ups and downs that come with that is as bad and dumb as surrendering yourself to rage and passion . Like others have said Lucas did not deal in subtleties but that was always my reading of the last fight in RoTJ. Luke had to see Vader as his father and not just a physical and spiritual threat and choose not kill him just because he was a Jedi and Vader was a Sith. Similarly Vader makes that realization and kills the emperor because it's the right thing to do.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:24
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Galaga Galaxian posted:KotoR 2 was pretty bad, and Avellone (who loves his shades of grey) doesn't understand The Force, IMO. It's funny to see this because it was Scorchy's awesome LP that first drew me here but as time has passed...yeah, I just find it faintly embarrassing nowadays, a load of try-hard, edgy bobbins. Retconning Revan into some ridiculous Force Batman with wheels within wheels within plots within plans all along was lame, the new characters are garbage ("wow guys, what if we have Han and Chewie...but evil?!") and everyone takes a huge backseat because Avellone and chums are too busy wanking themselves over Kreia till their dicks snap. And then there's the small matter of what a broken, buggy horrorshow it is to actually play. It's just wretched and miserable. Perfect EU fodder I guess.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:47
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