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Talmonis posted:I'll agree with that. But it still doesn't excuse why men threatening federal agents with weapons were not subsequently arrested after the situation simmered down and people went home. The Feds are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation: Letting the militia run roughshod in an occupied federal building emboldens anyone watching thinking they should also do it to try and prove whatever (insane, unstable) point they want to make. This also brings media attention to the militias and while vast swaths of America would think of them as a punchline to a bad joke the sort of crazies that are attracted to it in the first place see it as inspirational. On the other hand, the harder you crack down on these chucklefucks, the more it will galvanize them and the harder they will dig in like the ticks they are. While I have no doubt that federal agents can absolutely come in force and disperse/arrest/kill the lot of them in pretty quick succession if they so chose, doing so means putting your own men in the line of danger. There's also the very real thought that if it came to shots fired the militias will paint this as Waco 2, galvanize the whole lot of them and then pretty much all federal employees (even non-law enforcing ones) get put on some sort of hillbilly hitlist, basically forming Al'Queda America for real. Really, I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. They really should be blocking traffic going into and coming out of the reserve if only to keep resuppliers and sympathizers from joining.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:32
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CortezFantastic posted:I think people in general are tired of justice not being served. Simply just barricading them in, not letting them resupply, and arresting them after they give up would make everyone happy. As it looks right now, they aren't even trying to stop them. That looks embarassing to the group, to certain people, but to others it looks like the feds don't want to confront these clowns. justice is a slow process. people who want justice overnight are also called lynch mobs we really shouldn't base government response to an armed occipation based on dailykos comment posters desire to see fat rednecks brutally owned on cnn Who What Now posted:As opposed to just leaving them alone which as we can see here did wonders at dealing with them such that they wouldn't escalate the situation. what have they done to escalate the situation. did a man break out his tactical combat tarp. are they throwing cans of beans at the police boner confessor fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 19:36
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quote:We are establishing a commercial lien for damages of $100 billion United States Dollars (USD) defined as one ounce of fine silver for the loss of any one Oregon State Citizen murdered by any federal corporation employee, mercenary, subcontractor, agent or ally, with an additional $100 billion (USD) to be paid directly as compensation to their families. That's an expensive ounce of silver!
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Jan 6, 2016 19:36
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zeal posted:They're not a sad joke anymore though. They started that way, when they shivered their asses off the first few nights. Now they've had time to actually stock up with food and fuel (in part thanks to local sympathizers), odd jobs from around and beyond the state are free to trickle in, and both the work and school schedules of the people who actually live in that area remain disrupted. They're a public nuisance, not a joke, and the longer they're left to their own devices, the more media attention they receive and the more hesitant federal officers seem to actually do something about them, the more full of themselves and their cause they'll be come. Once they're sufficiently high on their own self-righteousness they could graduate to become a public safety risk in that county. What's more important, in the national sense, is the message the standoff says to others who share the militiamen's ideals but have yet to act on them. Upthread someone who claimed to work as a ranger on federal lands out west talked about how the risk their colleagues see in this unfolding situation lies in antigovernment folk taking the feds' and local law enforcement's hesitance as a message that if they stand up for their rights with guns in hand (against, say the nosy park ranger coming by to check your fishing license out on the trails), that the government will back down. If the feds continue to mishandle this situation like they did the Bundy Ranch standoff, it sends the message that the authorities are indeed afraid to tackle right-wing militia groups when they decide owning guns puts them outside the rule of law. Something tells me disruption isn't a problem to you so long as the protest has the right hashtag. Or do you think groups like BLM are in the wrong when they block traffic or was occupy wrong when they inconvenienced some bankers on wallstreet? Sure they have guns but so what, so far their protest is far less destructive or violent than say Ferguson. Is this one of those 'only my protest is moral' sort of thing?
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Jan 6, 2016 19:38
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Is this one of those 'only my protest is moral' sort of thing? yeah it's a little disturbing how many people are correctly identifying the racial disparity in dealing with peaceful protests and come to the conclusion "i wish the police would treat these white guys as harshly as they treat black guys" instead of "i wish the police would treat black guys as gently as they treat white guys"
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Jan 6, 2016 19:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:justice is a slow process. people who want justice overnight are also called lynch mobs Oh so you aren't even reading what I posted, that's cool. Troll on homie
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Jan 6, 2016 19:43
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DeathSandwich posted:The Feds are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation: They're already complaining that the people on Facebook who showed up didn't show up, which message is likely to drive off all but the hardest of the hardcore: "Hey show up! you'll get hot meals and hot showers and, after a bit, get to go home scot free!" or "We sat in the cold with no food and no water and no lights and huddled for warmth until we surrendered and got tossed in jail"? At this rate, by next week, Obama will personally hand over the keys to the White House and turn himself in for execution because NEXT time they might be REALLY serious!!
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Jan 6, 2016 19:43
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Maybe we can meet in the middle. Treat black guys somewhat better and these guys somewhat worse.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:43
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Duke Igthorn posted:That's an expensive ounce of silver! Hahahha, looks like I'm a billionaire.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:44
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SocketWrench posted:Hahahha, looks like I'm a billionaire. remarkably accurate post/av combo
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Jan 6, 2016 19:46
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I love when SovCits try to actually enforce there bullshit monetary compensation claims. The best are the videos of then being pulled over and saying they will only talk to the police for something like 1000 dollars a minute.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:48
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah it's a little disturbing how many people are correctly identifying the racial disparity in dealing with peaceful protests and come to the conclusion "i wish the police would treat these white guys as harshly as they treat black guys" instead of "i wish the police would treat black guys as gently as they treat white guys" There's a difference between peaceful unarmed protest and a heavily armed coup de main. One of those should be met with force, one shouldn't. This isn't complicated.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:49
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CortezFantastic posted:Oh so you aren't even reading what I posted, that's cool. Troll on homie no i'm just pointing out that people on the internet think nothing is happening if it doesn't happen immediately. like during some mass shooting people start freaking out if they don't have up to the second information on a currently developing event. and right now people are bemoaning how these dastardly insurrectionists got off scot free when they're still, you know, committing their crimes. people are mad that cliven bundy got away with his protest seemingly unaware that the government still has lawsuits against him in court. the justice system is a slow process which is nominally a good thing even if it's not very exciting or cathartic cheerfullydrab posted:There's a difference between peaceful unarmed protest and a heavily armed coup de main. One of those should be met with force, one shouldn't. This isn't complicated. ah yes we will overthrow the government one agency at a time starting with the southeast oregon bird sanctuary look out yorba linda water district *makes cutting motion on neck*
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Jan 6, 2016 19:50
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Who What Now posted:As opposed to just leaving them alone which as we can see here did wonders at dealing with them such that they wouldn't escalate the situation. Feds are treatin it with kid gloves because they know they can't win. Going hard will just cause more OKC bombings, just like creating any other kind of terrorist whether or not you think their cause is justified. If you want to just "bring on" the lone wolves, OKC was a 168:1 trade. Not a winning move. Sorry your utopia of owning conservatards or whatever you've got in mind is impossible and never has ever existed and never will short of going full Singapore.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:54
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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I think people are just mad that legal left-wing protests like Occupy Wall Street are taken down by force by local police, with students getting tazed and maced, while at the same time these right-wing assholes get to point weapons at federal officers / take over federal property and the response is "gee I guess we shouldn't do anything because it might lend credibility to their movement." It's just funny seeing the government's response to protests movements depending on which side of the political spectrum the protesters stand on.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:55
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And I get it, the right-wing assholes are way more likely to fight back and plant bombs in buildings, which is why the government is scared of them, and they were not scared at all of OWS. It's like how we went into Iraq because we knew they couldn't fight back at all, not because we thought they were a threat.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:57
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Mystic_Shadow posted:I think people are just mad that legal left-wing protests like Occupy Wall Street are taken down by force by local police, with students getting tazed and maced, while at the same time these right-wing assholes get to point weapons at federal officers / take over federal property and the response is "gee I guess we shouldn't do anything because it might lend credibility to their movement." Yeah, the palpable bitterness that the left sucks at accomplishing anything while the NRA destroys gun control attempts or businesses lobby and succeed in cutting taxes results in pretty funny reactions. Like people being practically for police brutality here and rationalizing how no no these guys are definitely already violent, since the same people fail so hard at stopping it in other cases. Pretty funny that most of this brutality poo poo happens in cities and it's a countryside bumpkin cop not being violent enough for city folks' taste now.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:57
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DeusExMachinima posted:Yeah, the palpable bitterness that the left sucks at accomplishing anything while the NRA destroys gun control attempts or businesses lobby and succeed in cutting taxes results in pretty funny reactions. Like people being practically for police brutality since they fail so hard at stopping it in other cases. Let me guess: You support the Bundys 
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Jan 6, 2016 19:58
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Duke Igthorn posted:That's an expensive ounce of silver! Purestrain silver.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:59
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Mystic_Shadow posted:I think people are just mad that legal left-wing protests like Occupy Wall Street are taken down by force by local police, with students getting tazed and maced, while at the same time these right-wing assholes get to point weapons at federal officers / take over federal property and the response is "gee I guess we shouldn't do anything because it might lend credibility to their movement." this is a false perception though. aside from a few high profile events the majority of occupy protests were ignored until they just fizzled out on their own. and when the government takes down right wing militias by force, sometimes it leads to actual irl terrorism just because people are mad doesn't make what they're mad about accurate or realistic. it really just seems like a big persecution complex on the part of left leaners who get off on feeling oppressed and persecuted by the government just like, hm, just like oh i dont know just like these guys who feel so threatened that they occupied a federal building Mystic_Shadow posted:It's just funny seeing the government's response to protests movements depending on which side of the political spectrum the protesters stand on. yeah i remember when the police surrounded zucotti park and drove a tank into it and lit it on fire, killing 80 people CommieGIR posted:Let me guess: You support the Bundys i dont support the bundys, and i also don't support the chicken littles itt who think that the government is just giving militas a free pass because a raid hasn't materialized in five days
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Jan 6, 2016 19:59
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CommieGIR posted:Let me guess: You support the Bundys Bundys' are love, Bundys' are life.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:00
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What do you mean no? You didn't read what I said. You equated me saying the feds need to barricade them in, cut off supplies and wait them out into lynch mobs you suck at this
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Jan 6, 2016 20:01
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
I never said that, but here's a link for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing 
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Jan 6, 2016 20:03
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CortezFantastic posted:What do you mean no? You didn't read what I said. You equated me saying the feds need to barricade them in, cut off supplies and wait them out into [fixed]lynch mobs[/fixed please take this less personally, thank you i dont see much difference between people calling for police brutality in the first week of a militia standoff and people who generally thirst for vigilante justice when they feel like their ingroup has been wronged
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Jan 6, 2016 20:03
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We're statists - filthy, filthy statists.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:04
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Popular Thug Drink posted:what have they done to escalate the situation. did a man break out his tactical combat tarp. are they throwing cans of beans at the police You don't think that "actively and purposefully taking over a federal building" is an escalation from "standoff in a field"? Do you think this a deescalation from the first Bundy standoff?
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Jan 6, 2016 20:06
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You guys realize, that as soon as they reach 300 men they will be unstoppable right? The FBI can send armed officers, APCs, tanks... they will all break against the Bundy phalanx.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:08
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CommieGIR posted:Let me guess: You support the Bundys Clive is a freeloader and his son apparently couldn't command a one-car funeral. Not they need my approval or yours' to accomplish their objectives, and the powerless internet flailing from people who'd gladly make the situation worse or deploy the police brutality they hate so much supposedly is popcorn-munchin' great. Have you no self-awareness? "Yes these police tactics are bad but in this case I really really want to see it done to the other team! It's totes different if I want it so bad!"
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Jan 6, 2016 20:08
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DeusExMachinima posted:Clive is a freeloader and his son apparently couldn't command a one-car funeral. Because if they were anyone else, there'd be a god damned siege going on right now. Oh no, I'm perfectly self-aware, but the least the Feds could do is block off the roads and make anyone selling them supplies be charged with a criminal offense for aiding and abetting militants.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:10
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Popular Thug Drink posted:please take this less personally, thank you When people take up arms against the United States of America, we usually light them up. Unless it's the 2010's and they're conservatives, apparently. Pointing that out is not some kind of hypocrisy.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:10
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Who What Now posted:You don't think that "actively and purposefully taking over a federal building" is an escalation from "standoff in a field"? Do you think this a deescalation from the first Bundy standoff? i dunno about you, but i don't see this occupation as a direct continuation of the bundy standoff. maybe we have different perspectives on time, space, causality, etc. cheerfullydrab posted:When people take up arms against the United States of America, we usually light them up. Unless it's the 2010's and they're conservatives, apparently. Pointing that out is not some kind of hypocrisy. well when these dudes take up arms against the government i might agree with you
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Jan 6, 2016 20:10
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CommieGIR posted:Because if they were anyone else, there'd be a god damned siege going on right now. Yeah I'm not arguing for police brutality, but the authorities should do something like this at the very least to show that you can't support these lunatics materially.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:11
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DeusExMachinima posted:Feds are treatin it with kid gloves because they know they can't win. Going hard will just cause more OKC bombings, just like creating any other kind of terrorist whether or not you think their cause is justified. If you want to just "bring on" the lone wolves, OKC was a 168:1 trade. Not a winning move. Sorry your utopia of owning conservatards or whatever you've got in mind is impossible and never has ever existed and never will short of going full Singapore. Golly gee, you got me there. It sure does suck that our only options are "drone strikes" or "nothing ever" and we can't do things like, say, arrest these kinds of people for the crimes they commit. Oh well.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:13
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Mystic_Shadow posted:I never said that, but here's a link for you. I never understand why the outrage over this incident was the use of explosives, a one pound gel explosive does in fact sound like an entry device. The issue was when it started a fire they decided to let it burn.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:13
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Mystic_Shadow posted:I never said that, but here's a link for you. can you go into more detail explaining how this bears on his point, as this was a local police department action that precedes several well-known and high profile incidents where the Federal government used excessive and lethal force against members of white militia movements?
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Jan 6, 2016 20:13
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CommieGIR posted:These guys think they can fight a ground war against the US military. Isn't that literally every God-fearin', tyranny-hatin', gun-polishin', freedom-lovin' militia-man's
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Jan 6, 2016 20:14
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LGD posted:can you go into more detail explaining how this bears on his point, as this was a local police department action that precedes several well-known and high profile incidents where the Federal government used excessive and lethal force against members of white militia movements? And then they did OKC, nobody is going to cry for crazy militia.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:15
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Jarmak posted:I never understand why the outrage over this incident was the use of explosives, a one pound gel explosive does in fact sound like an entry device. The issue was when it started a fire they decided to let it burn. They let it burn and decided to shoot anyone trying to escape the fire.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:17
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i dunno about you, but i don't see this occupation as a direct continuation of the bundy standoff. maybe we have different perspectives on time, space, causality, etc. You don't see this event involving one of the Bundys as being in any way, shape, or form related to the previous event involving the Bundys? I guess we really do have different perspectives then. If you don't mind my curiosity, what's it like living in a world where every single instant is completely divorced and unrelated to every other instant?
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Jan 6, 2016 20:19
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The standoff is only 4 days old and already infighting is threatening to destroy the thread.
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Jan 6, 2016 20:20
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