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Brannock posted:edit: Maybe I can phrase this better. The way you write, it sounds like you're dismissing "political correctness" entirely as something that doesn't exist. I'm suggesting that it's a tool that's being actively abused to silence talk about and cover up deeper flaws within our system. Do you think that's plausible? I believe that political correctness, as in "accusing participants of racism as a tactic to silence them out of hand and shut down debate", is much less significant of a problem than right wingers would like us all to believe, and it is far from being the sole domain of the left. It was a Conservative minister who dismissed TFWP critics as racist IIRC. Far more often than not, a person will rightly challenge actual racist assumptions and implications made by other participants, only to be told they are being politically correct and trying to shut down debate. I guess part of why I roll my eyes at claims of political correctness is that they are exceedingly common, and usually without any merit. People who constantly spew racist poo poo start to think "gee, guys like me can't even order a coffee without being branded racist!" So they respond in kind by labeling anything vaguely liberal or leftist as "politically correct" Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jan 6, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 03:27
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Cultural Imperial posted:You loving assholes!!!! I criticize the left all the time you fucks The Troll that cried "assholes".
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Jan 6, 2016 03:29
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Lumius posted:is that idea that Canadians should have "special privilege: to Canadian real estate racist? Imagine i underlined the word Canadian in that last sentence. What do locals gain by inflated housing costs?
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Jan 6, 2016 03:32
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Baronjutter posted:I think Zizek raises a lot of good points on this subject. A lot of leftists hate him because he actually heavily criticizes the left. Can you point towards any specific videos / articles he's created on this, or are you referring to his general body of work?
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Jan 6, 2016 03:35
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Brannock posted:Can you point towards any specific videos / articles he's created on this, or are you referring to his general body of work? Youtube zizek and his lecture on multiculturalism. Interesting stuff
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Jan 6, 2016 03:46
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Baronjutter posted:Helsing stop posting on these worthless forums that don't deserve you and go make a well respected blog or what ever people with good opinions who can communicate them well do these days. CanPol Megathread: I Only Come Here to Read Helsing
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Jan 6, 2016 03:47
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Žižek is my bae~
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Jan 6, 2016 03:49
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Brannock posted:Can you point towards any specific videos / articles he's created on this, or are you referring to his general body of work? He's pretty rambly and sniffy like usual but he talks about it a bit here. It's often hard to get the full point though without reading his general body of work, and people love to quote little bits he's said out of context and say "see! he's right wing! he's racist! Reactionary!" On the general idea of "PC" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dNbWGaaxWM On multi-cultural-ism and specifically Syrian refugee crisis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVa4ERqz97o
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Jan 6, 2016 03:54
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bunnyofdoom posted:Speaking of weed and Liberals Not so fast... quote:Legalizing pot in Canada will run afoul of global treaties, Trudeau warned [/quote]
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Jan 6, 2016 04:26
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Helsing posted:Someone who takes social justice seriously has an obligation to actually consider criticisms of liberal shibboleths like multiculturalism, because quite often those policies are just a superficial gloss put over whatever policies will provide the great benefit to our corporate and political rulers. What are the policies of great benefit to our corporate masters that multiculturalism is a superficial gloss over?
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Jan 6, 2016 04:54
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why does anyone in canada give a poo poo about global treaties? I mean, the TPP is practically as good as unsigned by our hero trudeau. And no other country in the world gives a poo poo about canada.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:05
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Arabian Jesus posted:Not so fast... Hello footdragging. I was waiting for you to appear. E: CI it's about 'optics' and 'Honouring past bullshit things that prevent progress as a society as easy scapegoats blah blah'
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Jan 6, 2016 05:05
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephane-dion-saudi-arms-deal-1.3390854quote:Baird said while Canada and Saudi Arabia "share many different values" there are also common interests. There's an economic interest linked to the deal, he said, but also a shared interest in security as the battle against the Islamic State continues.  If baird was a jew born in the late 1800s he'd sell weapons to nazi germany that loving piece of disingenuous poo poo
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Jan 6, 2016 05:09
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Helsing posted:When the left (or liberals) refuse to participate in critical discussions of the programs or ideas they support, or when they dismiss any criticize as merely springing from white racial anxiety, they cede a lot of important ideological ground. Based on history (as well as current events in other parts of the world) this is a very dangerous strategy because it lends fascists and right wing nutcases with an air of authenticity, making it seem as though they're willing to espouse the dark truths that liberals and leftists want to suppress about modern society. The problem is, as I see it, that identity politics is one place liberalism and progressive politics (and the New Left that championed those policies) have had pretty good success while economic discussions continue to shift further and further to the right. Leftists who try to bring up economic issues tend to either "no-war-but-class-war" socialists or unable to convince people that economic policies need to have primacy when it comes to broader electoral strategies. And when they do focus on the economy you end up with something like the federal NDP's platform (which admittedly I voted for, anyway).
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Jan 6, 2016 05:14
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THC posted:The supposed problem of white men having their speech abridged, is massively overblown. I would even go as far as to call it "made-up" and "imaginary". Why do you insist upon taking the worst possible reading of everything I say? I don't think that white men are having their speech abridged particularly at this point, but I do think that the culture we are building where no one may ever be offended for any reason is a dangerous thing. Look at the wailing and gnashing of teeth that surrounds the very brave Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for example. Presumably, unless I'm much mistaken, she hasn't become white or grown a penis. Whether or not you agree with what she says, you cannot disagree that there are people trying to silence her speech on the basis that they find it distasteful or offensive -- in fact, to a certain point, she is actually treated worse due to her gender and ethnicity than a white man would be. I don't think political correctness is a bad thing. It can be very good, and I think everyone should be culturally sensitive when it's appropriate. That should never mean we shrink away from expressing any idea that might cause offence. Everyone should have their beliefs and ideas "offended" on a regular basis because that's the only way any of us can progress, either personally or as a society. When did we start looking at contradiction, stress, offence, anxiety, etc. as purely negative things, anyway? As stress and anxiety can actually drive us to greater heights personally, so too can offence cause us to re-examine our views and opinions, and I think that's a good thing, even if all of those things can also be negative.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:18
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Cultural Imperial posted:http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephane-dion-saudi-arms-deal-1.3390854 I think we should not sell weapons to Saudi Arabia because they are a lovely, garbage country filled with retards who think it's acceptable to execute people for witchcraft and sorcery. gently caress the House of Saud; they make me hope there's such a thing as Hell so they can rot in it for all eternity. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:21
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PT6A posted:I think we should not sell weapons to Saudi Arabia because they are a lovely, garbage country filled with retards who think it's acceptable to execute people for witchcraft and sorcery. gently caress the House of Saud; they make me hope there's such a thing as Hell so they can rot in it for all eternity. Unfortunately when the country collapses the worst of the House of Saud will escape to their many vast estates in countries such as the UK and America, where they will live a decadent lifestyle for several generations, happily harbored by the very countries they sought for decades to bring down via terrorist activities. There is no justice for the rich, only ambrosia.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:24
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Rime posted:Unfortunately when the country collapses the worst of the House of Saud will escape to their many vast estates in countries such as the UK and America, where they will live a decadent lifestyle for several generations, happily harbored by the very countries they sought for decades to bring down via terrorist activities. Once they lack the backing of their lovely loving country (or we/the US cease to give a gently caress), hopefully they'll be prosecuted for the raping and whatnot. Hope springs eternal!
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Jan 6, 2016 05:28
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PT6A posted:Once they lack the backing of their lovely loving country (or we/the US cease to give a gently caress), hopefully they'll be prosecuted for the raping and whatnot. you dont need the backing of a state entity to get away with crimes dude, just a last name. one of the duponts raped his 3 year daughter old and was found guilty and got probation
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Jan 6, 2016 05:33
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jsoh posted:you dont need the backing of a state entity to get away with crimes dude, just a last name. one of the duponts raped his 3 year daughter old and was found guilty and got probation That's troubling on several levels and I don't really want to think about it at the moment. How did he avoid going to prison for that holy gently caress, he raped a 3-year-old! I understand why we shouldn't kill people for things that that, as much as I want them to die, but I think a lengthy prison sentence really ought to be mandatory if you rape a toddler.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:39
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Outside of a few high profile cases where they just HAD to make an example of someone lest the peasants revolt, if you are rich and powerful the law doesn't apply to you, even in western countries. And even if convicted you face an almost totally separate "justice stream" that handles you with kid gloves and gives you the minimal fine or sentence.
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Jan 6, 2016 05:47
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Baronjutter posted:Outside of a few high profile cases where they just HAD to make an example of someone lest the peasants revolt, if you are rich and powerful the law doesn't apply to you, even in western countries. And even if convicted you face an almost totally separate "justice stream" that handles you with kid gloves and gives you the minimal fine or sentence. So you're saying the progress made in terms of law since the signing the magna carta was basically nothing, yeah p much 
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Jan 6, 2016 06:19
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PT6A posted:That's troubling on several levels and I don't really want to think about it at the moment. The west isnt much better. We let celebrities, CEOs, bankers, and politicians get away with literal murder because they have the money to navigate the legal system they helped create. Meanwhile the guy that plows my grandfathers driveway is in jail for weed possession.
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Jan 6, 2016 06:40
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PT6A posted:That's troubling on several levels and I don't really want to think about it at the moment. the judge said, and this is a quote, that he "wouldn't do well" in prison. so he got eight years probation
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Jan 6, 2016 06:53
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Arabian Jesus posted:Not so fast... Canadians have the right to self determination. Oh whoops, look at all these international conventions against weed legalization. Democracy at work.
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Jan 6, 2016 06:55
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THC posted:I believe that political correctness, as in "accusing participants of racism as a tactic to silence them out of hand and shut down debate", is much less significant of a problem than right wingers would like us all to believe, and it is far from being the sole domain of the left. It was a Conservative minister who dismissed TFWP critics as racist IIRC. Part of the problem is that people on the left have ceded the framing of this discussion to the right. This seems to happen a lot. Conservative groups have been very good, especially in the US, at framing arguments and language. It seems like the left just assumes that a well reasoned argument will win out, so they argue on other people's terms. The fact that everyone refers to this as political correctness is an inherent failure. It automatically implies that a person is self censoring for political gain and everyone assumes that the term encompasses people who take this to an extreme. It's also kind of influenced leftist thinking, because the reflexive response to someone on the right talking about political correctness gone wild is to defend whatever they are criticizing. So people end up defending statements that they shouldn't because they're trying to defend the useful concepts behind 'political correctness'. It's incredibly irritating, because it should be easy to frame as being courteous. Refer to people as they'd like to be referred to; it's the courteous thing to do. Consider others' points of view and treat them how you'd like to be treated. Give people who don't often get a voice the freedom to tell society who they are. Don't be a jerk. When you frame things like that, it's easy to get people on board. Plus it isn't inclusive of people using 'political correctness' as a club to beat their opponents, because they're not really following the whole spirit of the thing. It's the same bullshit as the term 'Social Justice Warrior.' Don't use the term, and if you decide to argue with someone who is, pick different phrasing. Using that kind of wording immediately surrenders the point.
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Jan 6, 2016 06:59
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Arabian Jesus posted:Not so fast... I'd be curious if Portugal is/was a signatory to those treaties. A little dose of the Harperite Treatment for Inconvenient Climate Change Accords and we should be good to go.
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Jan 6, 2016 07:48
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Arabian Jesus posted:Not so fast... It's not terribly hard really: Canada posted:Prohibition of marijuana is moronic and we're done with it and then nobody gives a poo poo
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Jan 6, 2016 07:49
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eXXon posted:What are the policies of great benefit to our corporate masters that multiculturalism is a superficial gloss over? Multiculturalism, healthcare and our history of "peace keeping missions" are all used by the government and by plenty of self congratulatory citizens as evidence that we're the most benign, progressive, tolerant and forward looking country in the world. Oh sure we've got our flaws, we're not perfect no sir but you know we aren't very racist, not like those Americans with their Donald Trump, and thanks to Trudeau we're welcoming refugees again, we don't interfere in other countries' business too much and we do at least try a bit to alleviate the suffering of the unfortunate. Meanwhile there are communities in Canada living in third world conditions, our mining companies are among the most odious international companies raping the third world, our supposedly generous social safety net is full of holes, the current generation of Canadian political leadership has oscillated between manifest incompetence and petty corruption, and our entire economy is tottering on the edge of a cliff. Canada's rosy self conception of itself as a flawed but basically benign progressive bastion makes it hard for a lot of people to understand this. Also, getting more abstract, there's a general tendency for countries with less cultural homogeneity to have weaker social safety nets. There are complicated debates behind why that's the case but part of it may be that countries with less cohesive cultures are less well equipped to mobilize against the demands of big business. None of which is to say that multiculturalism is a totally bad thing or that we should all sing God save the Queen and celebrate our European heritage. The idea of an inclusive society obviously has its merits and Canada benefits immensely from cultural diversity.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:03
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Kafka Esq. posted:Rosemary Barton is the new permanent host of power and politics. On the flip side of this, Evan Solomon will be the new afternoon drive host on CFRA in Ottawa.
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Jan 6, 2016 08:40
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jsoh posted:the judge said, and this is a quote, that he "wouldn't do well" in prison Isn't that the loving point? To fix him so he isn't a broken human being who fucks toddlers?
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Jan 6, 2016 18:07
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My wife wanted us to send our convicted rapist son to a french-immersion prison, but I was worried he wouldn't make friends so we sent him to the Montessori prison down the road.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:10
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PT6A posted:Isn't that the loving point? To fix him so he isn't a broken human being who fucks toddlers? Take a deep breath and admit to yourself that class warfare exists.
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Jan 6, 2016 18:32
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Guy DeBorgore posted:My wife wanted us to send our convicted rapist son to a french-immersion prison, but I was worried he wouldn't make friends so we sent him to the Montessori prison down the road. You monster You couldn't home school prison your jerk rear end son
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Jan 6, 2016 19:08
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Thank you for the videos Helsing, I'll watch them later tonight once I'm settled down and can focus on something for 45 minutes.SubCrid TC posted:It's incredibly irritating, because it should be easy to frame as being courteous. Refer to people as they'd like to be referred to; it's the courteous thing to do. Consider others' points of view and treat them how you'd like to be treated. Give people who don't often get a voice the freedom to tell society who they are. Don't be a jerk. It's not just the aggressive club-like application of "courteousness" that's worrisome, it's also the passive and obsequious surrender in an attempt to be ideologically correct. For example, this Torontonian lady commenting on the Cologne attacks: quote:I can't help thinking that boorish behaviour like this is not exclusive to indigent immigrant men because, here in Toronto, there have been several incidents where hijab-wearing Muslim women have been attacked by white men. It all seems to come down to resentment. In Cologne, probably, the young men attacking were not only outraged at the freedom of the young women, they were, most likely, jealous of their wealth as well. I could go on with another couple of recent examples but we've already discussed Wynne voluntarily submitting to oppression. I want to repost two paragraphs from that Helsing post from last night, and I think this sort of thing is on the cusp of becoming a major topic of political discussion especially with the recent migrant wave into Europe and Canada. This is something that people actually care about, and for good reasons too, and dismissing their beliefs/concerns as irrelevant or Wrong is just going to push them away and reinforce the idea that certain topics are enforced-verboten on the left. Helsing posted:I couldn't agree more. However one of the ironies of contemporary liberalism is that the collapse of a genuine leftist movement or intellectual tradition has meant that certain liberal projects such as state sponsored multiculturalism are only ever criticized from the right. Inevitably that means that the criticisms get refracted through the prism of right wing ideology: in this case it means, specifically, that concerns about the decline of social solidarity gets reworked into a complaint about "white men" being "silenced."
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Jan 6, 2016 19:36
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Kafka Esq. posted:Take a deep breath and admit to yourself that class warfare exists. It absolutely exists and team rich has never been kicking more rear end. Thank god we elected a trust fund millionaire, silverspoon snowboard instructor whose first act in office was to borrow a billion dollars to give people making six figures a tax break and cancel the means tested mincome for parents. We're still bombing brown people in the middle east, we still have C-51, we did start an inquiry into the design of the MMIW inquiry but we'll drag that out as long as humanly possible. The fuckin' internet people are starting to catch onto us though, let's talk about Trump and legalizing weed a bit. 
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Jan 6, 2016 19:38
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It's funny how the more I learn about the world, the more cynical and hateful I become.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:39
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Reddit, a bastion of rationality and common sense.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:43
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Ikantski posted:It absolutely exists and team rich has never been kicking more rear end. Thank god we elected a trust fund millionaire, silverspoon snowboard instructor whose first act in office was to borrow a billion dollars to give people making six figures a tax break and cancel the means tested mincome for parents. We're still bombing brown people in the middle east, we still have C-51, we did start an inquiry into the design of the MMIW inquiry but we'll drag that out as long as humanly possible. Libs gonna lib, Ezra.
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Jan 6, 2016 19:53
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At least one NDP member is blaming Mulcair's weird centrist campaign for the election loss and asking him to step downquote:A former United Church minister, DiNovo has never been shy about confronting the authorities in her party — including her own provincial leader, Andrea Horwath.
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Jan 6, 2016 21:21
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