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ImpAtom posted:So you... want a game where it impossible for you to a mistake, fail or have any negative consequence at all? Given we're talking about products designed to entertain, yeah? Give me that properly or I'll save and reload until I get it. I didn't buy (off the top of my head) Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries to play the "I'm in the loser branch of this tournament nobody is watching" path of the Tournament Job mission. I bought it for "This mission is for the championship, everyone is watching" one. E: vvv it's almost as if 'suboptimal play' should, ya know, be equally optimal! MisterBibs has a new favorite as of 00:01 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 6, 2016 23:52
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You want a button you click and then it tells you that you won? Because that's what a game with no possibility of suboptimal play is, basically.
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Jan 6, 2016 23:54
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EmmyOk posted:It's leaving your finger between the pages and when you see you made a choice that kills you and jumping back I always did that and I feel no shame about it. So many of those deaths were utter bullshit.
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Jan 6, 2016 23:54
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I think its less "i want to win easy" and more "Why the gently caress is my 95% success rate failing all the god drat time". If I die because I didn't block an attack then gently caress it, whatever. If I die because the game rolled a 96 instead of a 95 or lower gently caress that, reload.
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Jan 6, 2016 23:56
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It's like different people want different things from their games, or something. Save-scumming can and does cheapen the experience for people who want a challenge or even just a compelling, player-driven narrative from their games, but the temptation remains ever-present. Anti save scumming measures like iron man modes or persistent random number seeds or whatever they're called are a good way of removing that temptation and thus giving such people a better, more satisfying experience overall. if there's no back and forth, no adversity to a game, a certain subset of players will just switch off rather than have everything handed to them exactly as they want it. For instance, reloading your save every time your genius heir dies in Crusader Kings 2 makes for a pretty boring cakewalk of an experience, whereas just rolling with it and letting his retarded hunchback of a brother inherit instead can and often does lead to interesting gameplay which challenges the player or creates an interesting narrative. The resort to save-scumming can be due to a failure of game design, but most often it is just a mismatch of what the designer and the player wanted or intended from the game. It's rather strange to complain if you find yourself save-scumming to reroll a loss or redo a decision in RNG or Choice & Consequence heavy games, because Just Dealing With It and moving on is kind of integral to that sort of design.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:06
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Persona 4: So in this game you can have sunny days, foggy days, or rainy days. When it rains and there aren't any plot events that day, there's no ambient music, just the patter of the raindrops as your character walks around school and the town. It's oddly serene, almost relaxing.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:09
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Also if they could just give me all the money and abilities and items at the beginning so I'm not tempted to open the console and generate them, that would be nice.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:17
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I started an RPG game with my character named MrBibs an the opening story dialogue told me that I won in the best way, then the game was over. GotY, 10/10
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Jan 7, 2016 00:21
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I would have enjoyed Mirror's Edge a lot more if it allowed me to savescum, frankly.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:27
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My favorite little thing in MGSV is how satisfying it is to use C4. Watching something blow up at the farthest point of your vision and seeing the guards run to investigate it is the best thing.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:28
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Cloks posted:My favorite little thing in MGSV is how satisfying it is to use C4. Watching something blow up at the farthest point of your vision and seeing the guards run to investigate it is the best thing. This really is the best thing, where the AI will go to where the explosion happened instead of immediately knowing its you. Oh I'm sorry, they "assume an investigative stance" and "randomly patrol" the base, and they "just so happen" to gravitate towards you. StandardVC10 posted:I would have enjoyed Mirror's Edge a lot more if it allowed me to savescum, frankly. Sorry to disappoint but thats just cause you're bad at the game, not RNG. Savesumming wont help there 
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Jan 7, 2016 01:05
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I brought this point up with some friends that I play games with and I think it applies here: If you are playing a game like D&D, you are at the mercy of the dice for better or worse. If you roll like poo poo during a session, your Cleric is going to get messed up and you're going to have to adjust. I view video games the same way. Unless I know it's a bullshit fake choice, I will accept failure and roll with it. If I flub an attack or piss off a character by saying something they don't like (this is not saying something "wrong") then I will try something else. I don't k ow of any video game where you can fail a random chance and not be able to beat the game. it may be insensitive but anyone that complains about "suboptimal play" is always autistic. The biggest difference is that a tabletop allows for more choice and variety.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:09
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I think it varies by the game. Like if i die in spelunky, no matter how amazing a run it was, oh well gg. on the other hand, you bet I'm mashing quick load after dying in half life2 to avoid having to sit around while a cutscene happens again or re-doing a skill check in fallout that makes me have to instead do some unfun poo poo/miss out on good rewards and exp, if i fail it.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:15
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I love how XCOM: Enemy Unknown foiled savescummers by doing all of its under-the-hood calculations before your turn starts, so you couldn't just re-do the same move over and over until the RNG landed in your favor.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:21
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And of course Enemy Within enabled an option that would change the calculations every time you reloaded...and named it "save scum". 
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Jan 7, 2016 02:29
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Sleeveless posted:I love how XCOM: Enemy Unknown foiled savescummers by doing all of its under-the-hood calculations before your turn starts, so you couldn't just re-do the same move over and over until the RNG landed in your favor. Yeah, this turns XCOM savescumming into a different game, rather than just the same game only you can't lose. Savescumming XCOM is less about forcing the game to go your way, and more about figuring out, at this exact point in time, your best available course of action.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:30
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It's dumb confirmation bias but the percentage chance in XCOM never felt right. 90% chance to hit should not miss 40% of the time.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:36
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Tengames posted:I think it varies by the game. Like if i die in spelunky, no matter how amazing a run it was, oh well gg. Yeah for a number of RPGs there are skill-checks that can mean the difference between getting locked out of certain quest resolutions, unique items/characters, and whatever. Save-scumming for those kind of checks seems to be a better solution than just starting over and dumping however many hours of progress just to get back to the same spot. If you think save-scumming is BS, cool, then don't do it. A lot of games offer hardcore modes for just such a reason. Remember kids, there's no "right" way to have fun. Everybody has different ways of enjoying games, autistic or otherwise.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:48
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Just Offscreen posted:Not always, some people just like to savescum just to ensure they do everything the "right" way, when that might not be the point of the experience. It's like trying to read all the branches of a choose-your-own-adventure book at once. haveblue posted:You want a button you click and then it tells you that you won? Because that's what a game with no possibility of suboptimal play is, basically. TomViolence posted:It's like different people want different things from their games, or something. Save-scumming can and does cheapen the experience for people who want a challenge or even just a compelling, player-driven narrative from their games, but the temptation remains ever-present. Aphrodite posted:Also if they could just give me all the money and abilities and items at the beginning so I'm not tempted to open the console and generate them, that would be nice. Oh, especially racing and fighting games where cars/characters/whatever are locked and you have to do certain things to unlock them. gently caress that. You want to have a story mode where you have to gradually gain access to stuff, fine, but in single race/fight mode I should be able to just use everything right from the start. Inzombiac posted:If you are playing a game like D&D, you are at the mercy of the dice for better or worse. If you roll like poo poo during a session, your Cleric is going to get messed up and you're going to have to adjust. Inzombiac posted:It's dumb confirmation bias but the percentage chance in XCOM never felt right. 90% chance to hit should not miss 40% of the time.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:57
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You can't tell someone what the right way to play a video game is because what feels right will differ from person to person. But you can tell them what the intended method is, and the intended method has never been save scumming for any video game that has ever existed where save scumming wasn't also the game's gimmick, so
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Jan 7, 2016 03:02
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Leal posted:Sorry to disappoint but thats just cause you're bad at the game, not RNG. Savesumming wont help there I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but a quicksave/quickload would have made up for the woefully inadequate number of checkpoints in a lot of the levels towards the middle of the game.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:02
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Sleeveless posted:I love how XCOM: Enemy Unknown foiled savescummers by doing all of its under-the-hood calculations before your turn starts, so you couldn't just re-do the same move over and over until the RNG landed in your favor. XCOM was a special level of bullshit though. I stopped playing it after a game where aliens mind controlled my guys and made them shoot eachother before I'd even gotten half the team off the plane.  In runs where things like that didn't happen, the game was pretty golden. But then just randomly the game would decide that this attack would be the time to gently caress you.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:38
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Nuebot posted:XCOM was a special level of bullshit though. I stopped playing it after a game where aliens mind controlled my guys and made them shoot eachother before I'd even gotten half the team off the plane. If they can see your guys in the plane, you've got a pretty narrow search radius to find the Ethereal in. Send someone out to go find them, then politely explain you don't like people reading your mind through the diplomatic medium of explosive autocannon ammo or a Blaster Launcher.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:35
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Sleeveless posted:I love how XCOM: Enemy Unknown foiled savescummers by doing all of its under-the-hood calculations before your turn starts, so you couldn't just re-do the same move over and over until the RNG landed in your favor. It didn't foil anything, though?  You rejigger the RNG by doing something (and I always had someone who didn't do anything during a turn for that specific task), and it changed the outcome. Just because Terror From The Deep assumed that X-COM struggled mightily and lost many of its forces and didn't have a commander with CHIM doesn't mean that was true, after all.Related to this accidental derail, I think I fell in love with Renowned Explorers when it flat out asked me if I wanted a rougelike or a proper save-and-reload experience. 
MisterBibs has a new favorite as of 05:17 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 05:12
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Inzombiac posted:I brought this point up with some friends that I play games with and I think it applies here: You're literally never at the mercy of the dice in a tabletop game because you, the GM, and anyone else in the game ultimately have veto power on anything that happens. Taken to the extreme, yeah, it'll probably ruin the fun and satisfaction of the game if you just toss the dice out altogether and narrate your character automatically winning every fight by default, but that's down to the discretion of the players. Tabletop games also have the gigantic benefit of (hopefully) having a GM with a brain steering the game, who can dynamically react to what the players are doing (or what they want) rather than stoically processing input like a machine. Of course this argument got weird pretty fast because nobody seems to be clear on what kind of game anyone else is talking about. In games where failure has interesting consequences (example: CKII), relentlessly save scumming sounds dull, especially because those games are often built as "things going wrong" simulators. Less sandboxy and more linear games rarely have a meaningful consequence for failure, and in something like a shooter, there's a difference between quick saving every minute to bookmark your progress and reloading the game after every single minor mistake like some crazy time traveler. Enemy Unknown is an odd duck IMO, because you can argue for either side of the coin. I can totally see why people would consider the perma-death mechanic and harsh consequences for loving up to be interesting, but EU is also pointedly more linear and your squaddies more personable than in previous X-Com games. So I equally get why some people would rather restart a mission than lose a high rank soldier they invested a shitload of time into. Though again, there's also the distinction to be made between essentially restarting from a checkpoint and meticulously and obsessively re-rolling every single dice roll so that you soldiers never miss and the aliens never hit. Might as well save yourself the trouble and just actually cheat at that point. Really what I'm always most fascinated by in these arguments are the weird attitudes that often crop up, where "cheap" tactics need to be removed from the game because some players are incapable of playing even slightly non-optimally to the point of ruining their enjoyment. That the temptation to "cheat" is so overwhelming that they need to be saved from themselves. Or, while not particularly common on SA, the implication that a "lesser" player enjoying the same experience ruins the satisfaction of beating a game legitimately (ie, Super Guide is the cancer killing Nintendo because how many Mario worlds I can beat legitimately is how many inches my dick is).
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Jan 7, 2016 05:20
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How dare you not enjoy video games the proper way, which is the way I believe, furthermore I like how in some games they build in cheat codes, don't try to hide them/punish you for using them, and have no problems with people modding. Like Sims 3. You can type in the cheat and just get 1000000$ and do whatever the gently caress you want, or max the sims' skills so you don't have to sit through 5 hours of them learning guitar or whatever. I haven't played sims 4 so I dunno if they still do that but I assume they do.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:46
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Making savescumming impossible means removing quicksaves from a lot of games so uhhhh
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Jan 7, 2016 06:08
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I think people arguing this saving debate have forgotten the original topic was Jade Empire, where the gambler's head explodes because he's lost so much money. Forget that it's technically a punishment, I don't know how you could see that and feel cheated.John Murdoch posted:That the temptation to "cheat" is so overwhelming that they need to be saved from themselves. To be fair sometimes goons really are their worst enemy at enjoying video games. mycot has a new favorite as of 06:27 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 06:24
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I save-scummed with LISA because I just kind of liked it, and knew I had no intention to play twice. That and every decision's consequences you're faced with seemed SO dire. Having beaten it though, I think I could've made all the worst choices, and the game still would've given me the tools to beat it. In retrospect I think that's really impressive.
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Jan 7, 2016 06:24
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I savescummed through XCOM because gently caress games that don't give you enough information (like whether a a death robot on overwatch can see through a tiny gap, or far enough) or buggy (Muton Elites teleporting behind or in the middle of of your agents, flanking an enemy only to find your agent can't loving see him). I like the way Invisible Inc. does it with it's Rewinds: You avoid having to 'game' the system since it straight up give you reloads, but in limited supply. Granted I haven't gotten very far but it's felt very fair so far. Away all Goats has a new favorite as of 06:35 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 06:31
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Yeah it's weird how different games make me react in different ways. My first run in LISA I lost everyone to Russian Roulette and savescummed the poo poo out of it to get past with minimal casualties. Also that section is kinda why I don't want to do another playthrough. But in games like X-Com unless I'm unfairly hosed over, like with aliens jumping through walls or some mad bollocks I'll accept the fate of my squad and I enjoy it. Failing in that game sometimes feels like winning. Away all Goats posted:I savescummed through XCOM because gently caress games that don't give you enough information (like whether a a death robot on overwatch can see through a tiny gap, or far enough) or buggy (Muton Elites teleporting behind or in the middle of of your agents, flanking an enemy only to find your agent can't loving see him). Replaying KOTOR 2. I say "re-play" but the first time I had it I barely looked at the screen because of so much weird poo poo happening in real life back when it came out and with the restoration mod I presume it's a pretty different experience anyway, BUT... It's just so great. I'm not the biggest fan of Star Wars but I enjoyed KOTOR 1 and I just love the way every time I'm an outright evil bastard for shits and giggles Kreia gives me flak for it. Using force power to pass speech checks? I get shouted down for "cheating" I really don't want to take her out of my party but I want a Murder-Wookie and HK-47 as my murder-team so what can you do?
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Jan 7, 2016 10:37
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ChogsEnhour posted:Replaying KOTOR 2. I say "re-play" but the first time I had it I barely looked at the screen because of so much weird poo poo happening in real life back when it came out and with the restoration mod I presume it's a pretty different experience anyway, BUT... It's just so great. I'm not the biggest fan of Star Wars but I enjoyed KOTOR 1 and I just love the way every time I'm an outright evil bastard for shits and giggles Kreia gives me flak for it. Using force power to pass speech checks? I get shouted down for "cheating" I really don't want to take her out of my party but I want a Murder-Wookie and HK-47 as my murder-team so what can you do? It's cool, if you take her out of the party she chats with you via psychic link. So she still gives you poo poo for being a dick.
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Jan 7, 2016 11:43
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Oh excellent! edit: Can you clarify if "Restricted by armour" means I can't use a power flat out? Because she's my healer at the moment and I'm a juggernaut in Heavy Armour. If it comes down to it I guess I can strip naked between fights to spam Force Heal if necessary because right now she's my healer.
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Jan 7, 2016 11:45
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Inzombiac posted:It's dumb confirmation bias but the percentage chance in XCOM never felt right. 90% chance to hit should not miss 40% of the time. Fire Emblem remains the only game to get turn-based hitting chances right.
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Jan 7, 2016 11:57
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CJacobs posted:You can't tell someone what the right way to play a video game is because what feels right will differ from person to person. But you can tell them what the intended method is, and the intended method has never been save scumming for any video game that has ever existed where save scumming wasn't also the game's gimmick, so I'm pretty sure you are intended to savescum the speech checks in Fallout 4, and it is in fact an example of lovely design. Xoidanor posted:Fire Emblem remains the only game to get turn-based hitting chances right. It's funny how it does this by making the displayed chances grossly inaccurate, but it really does feel right.
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Jan 7, 2016 12:17
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How does it work in Fire Emblem?
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Jan 7, 2016 12:56
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Basically if the chance to hit displayed is above 50% the real chance is slightly higher and vice versa when the displayed is below 50% or something like that.
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Jan 7, 2016 13:19
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There is already a thread for extreme autism about annoying things in games. This is the thread for nice things in games. In Life is Strange the main character is a photography student and in every chapter there are optional photos. The game gives you clues on how to find the optional photos via sketches of what they roughly look like in your journal. They make for very fun little puzzles and I'm really enjoying them. Life is Strange is also one of those 'your choices matter' games so you don't want to have to replay the chapter making the same choices again to find the photos you missed. To avoid this they have a special collection mode so you can replay parts of a chapter without worrying about your choices and just collect any photos you may have missed.
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Jan 7, 2016 13:19
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Overminty posted:Basically if the chance to hit displayed is above 50% the real chance is slightly higher and vice versa when the displayed is below 50% or something like that. I don't remember exactly but I think it makes the roll twice and uses the average of the two as the result. This skews the result to be less extreme (farther from 0 and a 100) than if you had just done one roll which makes the outcome more predictable.
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Jan 7, 2016 13:29
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ChogsEnhour posted:Oh excellent! If it's restricted by armour you can't use it at all while you're wearing armour. Don't know if you can cast a buff then put armour on afterwards, but that'd be annoying anyway. It sucks, because some of the best powers can't be used in armour. On the bright side you can probably just stack dex or whatever to where it doesn't even matter! I may have posted it here before, but whoever decided to add a dedicated weapon twirling button to KoTOR 1 and 2 was a goddamn genius.
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