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I don't think showrunners have favourite characters in this way. They decided to portray him in a different way to the book. Who cares?! That doesn't mean they hate him and his actor! I didn't much like the season 5 turnaround but it's just an adaptation and that was the way they decided the story would go.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:13
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Ginette Reno posted:That seems like such a big change to make. If Stannis does beat the Boltons in the book, then what does a resurrected Jon do? He's not going to march against Stannis. Wouldn't he? If Stannis beats the Boltons, he would be in control of Winterfell and a revived Jon who has broken from the Night's Watch and has Melisandre whispering in his ear about being Azor Ahai might decide to take back his rightful seat. I also wouldn't put it past Stannis to march against Jon for abandoning his post, mobilizing an army, and y'know, probably being the reason Shireen is dead. I admit I'm not quite sure about how the next part of the northern plot goes. There's so many different characters and potential beats in the air that it could go in a million different directions. I am certain Stannis doesn't die in the Battle of Ice and, if he wins there, he is fully equipped to take Winterfell through some combination of subterfuge or by exploiting the chaos within the walls. I can't imagine the Boltons surviving a victorious Stannis. Then again, they could fall back to the Dreadfort. Like I said, I'm not sure.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:14
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Ginette Reno posted:What makes you think it was legit? It's pretty clearly a fake. Because Ramsey defeated Stannis.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:18
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In It For The Tank posted:Wouldn't he? If Stannis beats the Boltons, he would be in control of Winterfell and a revived Jon who has broken from the Night's Watch and has Melisandre whispering in his ear about being Azor Ahai might decide to take back his rightful seat. I also wouldn't put it past Stannis to march against Jon for abandoning his post, mobilizing an army, and y'know, probably being the reason Shireen is dead. Would Melisandre abandon a still living Stannis, though? Even if she does resurrect Jon in the books, that still leaves Stannis alive and a victorious Stannis at Winterfell would presumably not do much to dissuade Mel from her belief in him. In the show she flees him like a sinking ship when she realizes he's not the one but it's a bit harder to justify that if he wins that battle. Although it would be an interesting dynamic for Mel to march alongside Jon. Stannis having to play second fiddle to Jon and having to treat with Jon/Mel would be a very Stannis thing to have happen Mr. Nice! posted:Because Ramsey defeated Stannis. If the letter were true I don't think there is any way the show would have left it out. It would have made the assassination of Jon far more plausible rather than the route the show took which is he was killed just because he likes Wildlings. Ramsay may well defeat Stannis in the books but even if he does I still think the letter was a fake. There's too many questionable things about it.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:26
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The letter may still come in the show. It's what will lead to the battle of the bastards.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:31
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Ginette Reno posted:Would Melisandre abandon a still living Stannis, though? Even if she does resurrect Jon in the books, that still leaves Stannis alive and a victorious Stannis at Winterfell would presumably not do much to dissuade Mel from her belief in him. In the show she flees him like a sinking ship when she realizes he's not the one but it's a bit harder to justify that if he wins that battle. As far as Melisandre knows, thanks to the Pink Letter, Stannis is dead. Her POV chapter in ADWD is already her skirting around the edges of the revelation that her fires are trying to tell her than Jon is Azor Ahai; the news from the Pink Letter might be enough for her to finally make the connection. Once she realizes Jon is AA, she'll do anything to bring him back (hence, burning Shireen). If she later finds out Stannis is actually alive, I can't see it doing much to dissuade her from supporting Jon if she's made up her mind about him being AA, especially if she has already torched Shireen. Like you, I'm sure the letter is false. I believe Mance wrote it and the entire thing is fake in order to provoke Jon to come south but can see it being written by Ramsay but based on false information from the battle. Either way, Stannis won't be defeated at the Battle of Ice. He has too many things going for him like the trap he's laying that's going to be devastating to the enemy, the folly of the Freys, and the fact that the Manderlys are going to be there to switch sides and provide back up.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:37
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The show in general is pro-Dany. Her faults really don't come up compared to other contenders like Stannis, who they struggled to give a fully positive quality until the last season, only to get rid of it a few episodes later.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:46
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Mr. Nice! posted:What do you mean there's indications that stannis will beat the boltons? The pink letter is all we have in the books and it looks like it was legit. There's a preview chapter from Theon's perspective and basically what it seems to show is Stannis' plan is to get the Bolton Army lured out onto a lake that's been structurally weakened.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:57
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bobjr posted:The show in general is pro-Dany. Her faults really don't come up compared to other contenders like Stannis, who they struggled to give a fully positive quality until the last season, only to get rid of it a few episodes later. I agree, which is why it treats her as implicitly in the right. Even her moments of self-aggrandizement and trite bravado are treated by the show as something we're supposed to find cool and admirable.
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Jan 7, 2016 18:11
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Im pretty sure that the end game for Stannis in the book is gonna be that: Shireen gets burned alive by Mel (maybe with Stannnis consent, maybe not) and Stannis will loose his armies and die (although I really doubt is going to be Brienne giving the final blow). But yeah, Im also pretty sure it will happen in a way that actually makes sense and is not completely stupid like in the show. Anyways there is probably little for him to do before that happens so that's why the showrunners decided to finish him in the last season in that hurried imbecile way EDIT: Im not big fan of Brienne plot in the books: alhtough I get the point of it (showing how the war affected the common people and all), it was mostly very boring. But the way the show tried to make it interesting by having her meet both Arya and Sansa and beat the Hound and kill Stannis by the most implausible set of incredible coincidences was just ridiculous Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 18:37
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Mr. Nice! posted:The letter may still come in the show. It's what will lead to the battle of the bastards. God if they end up using the Pink Letter *after* the Night's Watch mutiny that would be the dumbest goddamn thing. I mean, suck out the morally grey motivations for the mutineers (in many ways they're justified for what they do in the books, in no way are they in the show) and then wave that plot device around *later*. It's so dumb it may actually happen.
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Jan 7, 2016 18:44
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Just noticed this on the wiki: Apparently Elio and Linda wrote that in. This is so bad that when someone quoted it I assumed it was a joke: quote:Orys Baratheon, known now as Orys One-Hand, rode forth from Storm’s End one last time, to smash the Dornish beneath the walls of Stonehelm. When Walter Wyl was delivered into his hand, wounded but alive, Lord Orys said, “Your father took my hand. I claim yours as repayment.” So saying, he hacked off Lord Walter’s sword hand. Then he took his other hand, and both his feet as well, calling them his “usury.” Strange to say, Lord Baratheon died on the march back to Storm’s End, of the wounds he himself had taken during the battle, but his son Davos always said he died content, smiling at the rotting hands and feet that dangled in his tent like a string of onions. Yes very subtle. ASOIAF only feels like a broad, living world because we get a detailed look at a few of the houses and fill in the rest ourselves for minor houses and characters. The bits from TWOIAF (which I have not read) on the wiki just make it seem like every house is pretty much the same since almost all of them used to be kings but were made vassals by a more powerful king, which actually makes them less interesting. The Blackwoods seem pretty cool because they're one of the few southerners who worship the Old Gods and this isn't really explained in the books but apparently they're just reverse-Manderlys. For the most part you don't need to know about all the Targaryen kings and how they ruled, just the ones with cool names and maybe a few lines for the things they did, to flesh out the main story and allow for foreshadowing, parallels, symbolism and that kind of stuff. An author probably needs these notes but the reader doesn't need to see all of them. I think GRRM might have become more interested in filling out his setting than telling a story like how the notoriously slow writer provided basically two regular sized books worth of material for the worldbook: "Garcia and Antonsson gave him 20,000 more words than contracted – which Martin then ballooned to 300,000 words." Linda, Elio and GRRM's editor had to convince him to include the history of Aegon V which he was reluctant to do because he wanted to keep parts of it secret for future Dunk and Egg stories so he seems to be aware of this danger. This is apparently quite common for fantasy and sci-fi authors, which is pretty funny as one of the main themes of the series is how humans are divided by things that ultimately don't matter like a big dumb chair when they should be preparing for the apocalypse so if this is true then the author himself has fallen into the trap he set for his characters/readers. I would be surprised if GRRM has thought more about the Others (who have shown up 3 times) than e.g. the history of the Vale. Maybe this is why he's writing slower, killing Ned who was a tragic hero doomed to die from the start and who only existed in his mind for 2 years is probably easier than doing something major like bringing down the Wall which he's probably been daydreaming about for over 20 years and is an integral part of his setting. Look at his blogpost where he talks about some of the characters the show has excluded or killed off, he includes the forgettable and interchangeable rival Khals and Pyat Pree (but forgets Strong Belwas) with characters like Stannis. He seems to think Xaro Xan Daxos is a complicated character probably because as an overthinker (I assume) he sees him as more than a prop whose only role is to represent Qarth and be a paedophile. GRRM has said the Red Wedding was extremely painful to write and while a lot of people think he's become apathetic to the series over the years he might have actually become more invested, so doing anything major would be like destroying a sandcastle he's spent hours building. Maybe that's why so little happens in the last two books and why he had to off two minor characters at the end of ADWD to give the book some weight -- we all know Jon's not going to stay dead for long so that wouldn't work on its own. words words words
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Jan 7, 2016 19:02
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Mike N Eich posted:God if they end up using the Pink Letter *after* the Night's Watch mutiny that would be the dumbest goddamn thing. I mean, suck out the morally grey motivations for the mutineers (in many ways they're justified for what they do in the books, in no way are they in the show) and then wave that plot device around *later*. What if they mutiny and stab Jon again?
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Jan 7, 2016 19:07
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"Little" doesn't really happen in the last two books except in terms of characters dying. Jon's stories in ADWD had the Others become much more active than they had since the Fight at the Fist at the very beginning of Book 3.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:12
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Ague Proof posted:Apparently Elio and Linda wrote that in. I think you're probably right about this to some extent, part of the reason he's gotten paralyzed with the fear of getting it right isn't just because of fan pressure, but also because he's spent so much time thinking of this world that he wants to make sure everything is in the right place before he pulls the trigger. But when is Xaro Xhoan Daxos implied to be a pedophile? I only remember it being implied he's gay.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:15
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So apparently there is going to be a scene where Sansa goes back to Winterfell and a giant tries to get in. The show got rid of the prophecy about her defeating a giant in a castle made of snow so I wonder if in the books and show she will end up there and kill the giant herself. I cannot think of a way to not make this really dumb in both book and show but it seems like a strange coincidence that it would be so similar to the Ghost's prophecyIn It For The Tank posted:Yeah, if Stannis is supposed to burn Shireen in the books, it would have to be in circumstances completely doivorced from what was portrayed in the show and at a much later timeframe (i.e. after the defeat of the Boltons, because all of the relevant characters are so far removed from each other and the only way Stannis and Shireen would reunite at this point in the books is if he took Winterfell and then sent for her at the Wall). Since Jon appears to be given parts of Stannis' role next season, if Stannis is supposed to take Winterfell and send for Shireen to sacrifice in TWOW, well, doesn't it make sense that Jon'd stay at Winterfell and become King in the North? Where else is he going to go? And what if during the battle for the Dawn, he's the one who ends up sacrificing Olly? This year-
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Jan 7, 2016 19:29
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Ginette Reno posted:That seems like such a big change to make. If Stannis does beat the Boltons in the book, then what does a resurrected Jon do? He's not going to march against Stannis. In It For The Tank posted:(unless something mindblowingly dramatic happened suddenly, like the Wall fell and the Others attacked, at which point it's like... why would the show give up that potential drama to do it for comparatively lower stakes in Season 5?) The person we'll be seeing that 'ohshit' look on the face of will be probably Alliser Thorne.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:00
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In It For The Tank posted:As far as Melisandre knows, thanks to the Pink Letter, Stannis is dead. Her POV chapter in ADWD is already her skirting around the edges of the revelation that her fires are trying to tell her than Jon is Azor Ahai; the news from the Pink Letter might be enough for her to finally make the connection. Once she realizes Jon is AA, she'll do anything to bring him back (hence, burning Shireen). If she later finds out Stannis is actually alive, I can't see it doing much to dissuade her from supporting Jon if she's made up her mind about him being AA, especially if she has already torched Shireen. Yeah all that is why I think the Pink Letter is false. Ramsay doesn't gain much by provoking Jon like that, but Mance or Yara have everything to gain. Even Manderly or one of the Umbers could have written it. It's a shame the show decided to just get rid of that because the way you describe it makes Stannis a far more tragic and sympathetic figure, and is a more interesting drama than Jedi Jon against Darth Ramsay. You just know they're going to ramp up Ramsay to comical villain levels the rest of this season too. It's such an obvious plot, whereas the way the fat man has written it is a lot more subtle and interesting to me. I don't even think it would have taken that much longer to follow GRMM's way of doing it. A couple of scenes introducing Wyman and how there is animosity towards the Boltons from the North (do that same Frey vs Manderly scene from the books) then build up Stannis' masterplan, have the battle early next season, and bam. And last season could have ended with the pink letter and then Jon's death. It really wouldn't have taken that long.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:00
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In It For The Tank posted:Like you, I'm sure the letter is false. I believe Mance wrote it and the entire thing is fake in order to provoke Jon to come south but can see it being written by Ramsay but based on false information from the battle. Either way, Stannis won't be defeated at the Battle of Ice. He has too many things going for him like the trap he's laying that's going to be devastating to the enemy, the folly of the Freys, and the fact that the Manderlys are going to be there to switch sides and provide back up. There's many indications that Stannis is going to win, but that's why I go the feeling that GRRM is going to surprise the readers by having him lose the battle And then ressurrected Jon is gonna come south with the wildling army and destroy the Boltons
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Jan 7, 2016 20:11
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Elias_Maluco posted:There's many indications that Stannis is going to win, but that's why I go the feeling that GRRM is going to surprise the readers by having him lose the battle There were many indications going into the Red Wedding that Robb was hosed, and it turned out he was hosed.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:15
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1-800-DOCTORB posted:What if they mutiny and stab Jon again? He just gets stabbed at the end of every season from now on, like Kenny on South Park
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Jan 7, 2016 20:20
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Nail Rat posted:He just gets stabbed at the end of every season from now on, like Kenny on South Park I will be shocked - shocked - if Ramsay doesn't stab Jon at some point and he shrugs it off.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:33
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computer parts posted:There were many indications going into the Red Wedding that Robb was hosed, and it turned out he was hosed. Well I guess we are going to find out soon when WOW is relea- hahahahahaha Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:34
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I guess one possibility for Stannis in TWOW (which will never come out) is that the Red Letter *is* true, but immediately after Ramsay and the Boltons think they are victorious, the Manderly's and other loyal Northmen have come back with Rickon and revolt against the Boltons and declare for the Starks. That would be the storyline that would delve the closest with the TV show portrayal, as Jon can then march down and join them. It just sounds incredibly stupid. Funny how after this latest season there is almost no speculation about what Mance Rayder's role is anymore. After they killed him off did we all just assume his role is kind of fulfilled in the books as well? Will he be killed with little fanfare at the beginning of TWOW? Who knows.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:13
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Mike N Eich posted:Funny how after this latest season there is almost no speculation about what Mance Rayder's role is anymore. After they killed him off did we all just assume his role is kind of fulfilled in the books as well? Will he be killed with little fanfare at the beginning of TWOW? Who knows. He swapped bodies with Rattleshirt in the show as well but then Tormund killed him.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:20
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In It For The Tank posted:They kept him around for four seasons but generally portrayed him unfavorably in a way that was untrue to his characterization in the books and emphasized his negative traits wherever possible Yes, they emphasized negative traits, a completely normal thing to do in an adaptation, and you react to this by saying they 'hate his character' and wanted to sabotage him, a thing obsessed teenagers who have too much emotional attachment to the media they consume would think.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:31
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Mike N Eich posted:I guess one possibility for Stannis in TWOW (which will never come out) is that the Red Letter *is* true, but immediately after Ramsay and the Boltons think they are victorious, the Manderly's and other loyal Northmen have come back with Rickon and revolt against the Boltons and declare for the Starks. Or Stannis will fake his own death. But I still think the Pink Letter is more likely to be fake than not.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:37
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I hope that Melisandre sacrifices Olly the Potato Boy in order to bring Jon back to life. Burn, Potato Boy, burn.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:02
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Or Jon is going to stab longclaw into his chest and pull out a flaming sword.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:06
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Mike N Eich posted:I guess one possibility for Stannis in TWOW (which will never come out) is that the Red Letter *is* true, but immediately after Ramsay and the Boltons think they are victorious, the Manderly's and other loyal Northmen have come back with Rickon and revolt against the Boltons and declare for the Starks. I think Mance gets swept under the rug in terms of Season 5 cause it happened so soon and it was overshadowed by all the poo poo that came after it. And it's placement was so strange; I can't think of any major character deaths (not that Mance really counted as a major character in the show) in the first episode of a season. As for Mance in the books, while I can't see him dying at the hands of Ramsay (I imagine he evades capture by hiding in the crypts), long-term he's just another of the dozens of important characters in the northern storyline who might play a massive role or not. He's one I have basically no real predictions for. Pedro De Heredia posted:Yes, they emphasized negative traits, a completely normal thing to do in an adaptation, and you react to this by saying they 'hate his character' and wanted to sabotage him, a thing obsessed teenagers who have too much emotional attachment to the media they consume would think. I'm sorry that you get so salty whenever someone criticizes your favorite TV show.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:12
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April 24th for the premier, according the GoT Facebook page.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:49
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Mr. Nice! posted:Or Jon is going to stab longclaw into his chest and pull out a flaming sword. You're right, that does make sense.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:01
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How does Jon even keep longclaw If the wall is full of criminals and wildlings how does a sword like that not get picked off of him or out of his stuff like, immediately after he starts bleeding
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Jan 8, 2016 02:37
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Slightly Toasted posted:How does Jon even keep longclaw You're right, I'm sure someone took it. I also don't doubt that Jon would be able to take it back quite easily. Perhaps in some sort of cool fight scene.
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Jan 8, 2016 04:01
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Jon has had Longclaw stolen before and was able to get it back with nothing but his golden tongue.
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Jan 8, 2016 13:17
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Mouse Dresser posted:I hope that Melisandre sacrifices Olly the Potato Boy in order to bring Jon back to life. And then Melisandre says: "It looks like...baked potato is on the menu" 
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Jan 8, 2016 13:33
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lifts cats over head posted:And then Melisandre says: "It looks like...baked potato is on the menu" Dave Hill parachute account spotted.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:06
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And then Olly turns out to be Olly Frey
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Jan 8, 2016 14:10
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Do we know for sure, that TV stannis is dead?
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Jan 8, 2016 14:55
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lifts cats over head posted:And then Melisandre says: "It looks like...baked potato is on the menu" "Would you like Freys with that?" 
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