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The "Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord" reddit post has resonated with so many people not because they actually believe it, but because they want to believe it. They want to believe that George Lucas is a billionaire version of Andy Kauffmann, who makes the most anticipated movie of all time into the world's most subtle joke, because "eccentric billionaire" is much more in line with their worldview than "billionaire who doesn't know what the gently caress he's doing and basically trapped lightning in a bottle and kept the merchandising rights." One of the first pieces of "evidence" the satirical post puts forth is that, minutes after saying he was banished for being clumsy, Jar Jar performs a perfect triple somersault dive into the water. Now, there are two possibilities. One is that George Lucas had him do this because it sounded cool to him and something that would help sell Jar Jar toys and make little kids clap. The other is that this contradiction is deliberate and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can't sense that they're being deceived because Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord. I would hope that everyone in this thread would, in a Serious Discussion About Star Wars, reject the latter possibility outright, because it's loving ridiculous. Once we accept that George Lucas will just kinda do poo poo because it's cool without thinking through about what it means for characterization or thematic cohesion, this idiotic idea that no, no, George Lucas meant for the Jedi to come off as weird cultish assholes who were wrong about everything falls apart. The films are filled with so much lousy writing and awful plotting even outside the Jedi that it's clear to any sane person that no, George Lucas tried to tell a story about the tragic fall of the Jedi Order, and failed in every way possible.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:16
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:
It can still be a tragedy even if everyone involved is an rear end in a top hat. Hamlet is one such example.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:17
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the jedi are so inept that they start freaking out when they can no longer see the future. "All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing."
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Jan 7, 2016 19:21
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I think the truth is that George Lucas is both, really. He's a gifted visual storyteller and technical filmmaker who has lots of great ideas and lofty narrative aspirations, but who struggles writing dialogue and genuine human interactions and needs a good script editor that he respects to reign him in.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:23
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Jarjar being clumsy but also being able to do huge acrobatic leaps isn't even a contradiction at all. It's possible to be extremely athletic and good at diving but also be a clumsy fuckup.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:24
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The "Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord" reddit post has resonated with so many people not because they actually believe it, but because they want to believe it. They want to believe that George Lucas is a billionaire version of Andy Kauffmann, who makes the most anticipated movie of all time into the world's most subtle joke, because "eccentric billionaire" is much more in line with their worldview than "billionaire who doesn't know what the gently caress he's doing and basically trapped lightning in a bottle and kept the merchandising rights." One of the first pieces of "evidence" the satirical post puts forth is that, minutes after saying he was banished for being clumsy, Jar Jar performs a perfect triple somersault dive into the water. Now, there are two possibilities. One is that George Lucas had him do this because it sounded cool to him and something that would help sell Jar Jar toys and make little kids clap. The other is that this contradiction is deliberate and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can't sense that they're being deceived because Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord. I would hope that everyone in this thread would, in a Serious Discussion About Star Wars, reject the latter possibility outright, because it's loving ridiculous. well jarjar is a pure conduit of the force falling to the dark side due to his attachment to padme
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Jan 7, 2016 19:26
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Did Kasden really work on the script for the new one, or is it all marketing bs?
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Jan 7, 2016 19:27
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There's always a bigger fish is another scene people hate for some reason that is relatively good foreshadowing for the movie itself and its sequels.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:29
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the trump tutelage posted:In retrospect maybe. I don't think many people were sitting in the theater connecting the dots. The second movie ends with them deploying a massive army of stormtroopers under a red sunset while Yoda resigns himself to a massive, costly war against what he erroneously believes to be 'the dark side'.  Note that the above composition is much better than Force Awakens:  SpiderHyphenMan posted:there are two possibilities. One is that George Lucas had him do this because it sounded cool to him and something that would help sell Jar Jar toys and make little kids clap. The other is that this contradiction is deliberate and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can't sense that they're being deceived because Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord. Or, you know, the third possibility: Jar Jar is extremely talented at certain things, but people dismiss him as subhuman anyways.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:30
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Jack Gladney posted:Did Kasden really work on the script for the new one, or is it all marketing bs? He and Abrams co-wrote it, and he and his son is writing the Miller/Lord directed Han Solo prequel.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:31
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the trump tutelage posted:This line wouldn't have been so hokey if the films were more on the nose about how inept the jedi were. What. The movies hammer you over the head with it.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:33
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The "Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord" reddit post has resonated with so many people not because they actually believe it, but because they want to believe it. They want to believe that George Lucas is a billionaire version of Andy Kauffmann, who makes the most anticipated movie of all time into the world's most subtle joke, because "eccentric billionaire" is much more in line with their worldview than "billionaire who doesn't know what the gently caress he's doing and basically trapped lightning in a bottle and kept the merchandising rights." One of the first pieces of "evidence" the satirical post puts forth is that, minutes after saying he was banished for being clumsy, Jar Jar performs a perfect triple somersault dive into the water. Now, there are two possibilities. One is that George Lucas had him do this because it sounded cool to him and something that would help sell Jar Jar toys and make little kids clap. The other is that this contradiction is deliberate and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can't sense that they're being deceived because Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord. I would hope that everyone in this thread would, in a Serious Discussion About Star Wars, reject the latter possibility outright, because it's loving ridiculous. The novelization of Revenge of the Sith beats you over the head with the fact that, yes, the Jedi have been corrupted in their mission because of several factors, and they have gone astray significantly. Lucas had more involvement in the novelizations than he had in most other books, and the novelizations were based on scripts and other production materials. The idea that people in this thread conjured that reading from thin air is just not true. Phylodox posted:I think the truth is that George Lucas is both, really. He's a gifted visual storyteller and technical filmmaker who has lots of great ideas and lofty narrative aspirations, but who struggles writing dialogue and genuine human interactions and needs a good script editor that he respects to reign him in. This is pretty much how I see him, as well.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:35
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euphronius posted:What. The movies hammer you over the head with it. Maybe if we saw a more idyllic form of the Jedi Order in TPM, it would have made their corruption in the latter two films more remarkable. Without any display of how the Jedi are supposed to be, we have no reason to question if (for example) Obi-Wan and Qui Gon strong-arming the Trade Federation in TPM is inconsistent with the Jedi Order's prerogatives, or is otherwise morally dubious. That's just what the Jedi do in practice even if their rhetoric is more spiritual, and it's moot anyway because Star Wars is a black and white universe and the Jedi are the good guys. In AoTC, the Jedi just seem to be making the most of a bad situation.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:48
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:One is that George Lucas had him do this because it sounded cool to him and something that would help sell Jar Jar toys and make little kids clap. I don't like this because you're conflating/combining "bad idea/poor execution" with mindless greed. If anything it is more like what SMG said; Jar Jar is an alien fish dude who has some superhuman abilities, which comes off on the screen as ridiculous because Jar Jar is basically a goofy fish guy who performs feats that normally are associated with force sensitivity. Since we assume Jar Jar is not force-sensitive, it comes off as cartoonish and incongruent with Jar Jar's characterization.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:48
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Beeez posted:The novelization of Revenge of the Sith beats you over the head with the fact that, yes, the Jedi have been corrupted in their mission because of several factors, and they have gone astray significantly. Lucas had more involvement in the novelizations than he had in most other books, and the novelizations were based on scripts and other production materials. The idea that people in this thread conjured that reading from thin air is just not true. why would you read a star wars novel lol
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Jan 7, 2016 19:49
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the trump tutelage posted:The writing comes across as inconsistent and ridiculous to me, I think to most other non-film nerds as well. I don't know the film jargon well enough to accurately describe what I mean beyond that. The characters don't remark upon the hypocrisy enough (and the only character who consistently does is a selfish narcissist) so there's no real sense that the hypocrisy is remarkable. We do get a display of how jedi are supposed to be in the words and teachings of yoda in the OT. And in the words of yoda "do or do not there is no try" making the best of a bad situation is a straight path to the dark side.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:52
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the trump tutelage posted:The writing comes across as inconsistent and ridiculous to me, I think to most other non-film nerds as well. I don't know the film jargon well enough to accurately describe what I mean beyond that. The characters don't remark upon the hypocrisy enough (and the only character who consistently does is a selfish narcissist) so there's no real sense that the hypocrisy is remarkable. If you ever wonder why in Nolan films they have a character that spells everything out (like the guard in The Dark Knight during the Joker chase), this is pretty much why.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:54
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the trump tutelage posted:Maybe if we saw a more idyllic form of the Jedi Order in TPM, it would have made their corruption in the latter two films more remarkable. Without any display of how the Jedi are supposed to be, we have no reason to question if (for example) Obi-Wan and Qui Gon strong-arming the Trade Federation in TPM is inconsistent with the Jedi Order's prerogatives, or is otherwise morally dubious. Phantom Menace exists specifically to show the Jedi operating at their best. The point of the movies is that the Jedi are flawed from the beginning. You're getting mixed up because you see the conflict as being over whether the Jedi adhere to their ideals or not. That ignores the broader question of whether the Jedis actually have good ideals (they don't).
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Jan 7, 2016 19:57
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The "Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord" reddit post has resonated with so many people not because they actually believe it, but because they want to believe it. They want to believe that George Lucas is a billionaire version of Andy Kauffmann, who makes the most anticipated movie of all time into the world's most subtle joke, because "eccentric billionaire" is much more in line with their worldview than "billionaire who doesn't know what the gently caress he's doing and basically trapped lightning in a bottle and kept the merchandising rights." One of the first pieces of "evidence" the satirical post puts forth is that, minutes after saying he was banished for being clumsy, Jar Jar performs a perfect triple somersault dive into the water. Now, there are two possibilities. One is that George Lucas had him do this because it sounded cool to him and something that would help sell Jar Jar toys and make little kids clap. The other is that this contradiction is deliberate and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can't sense that they're being deceived because Jar Jar is a Secret Sith Lord. I would hope that everyone in this thread would, in a Serious Discussion About Star Wars, reject the latter possibility outright, because it's loving ridiculous. There's stuff in there that's good AND bad. Bad/Lazy Storytelling We got a big racing scene because George Lucas loves cars and racing, not because podracing is thematically important. We got a car chase through Coruscant because George Lucas loves cars, not because it was important to show that Coruscant was a bustling city. We got scenes of Anakin and Padme rolling in the grass and somehow falling in love for no reason, because George Lucas wanted love scenes, and to show that Anakin formed emotional attachments. You could even say that Padme serves no other purpose than being a thing for Anakin to lose. We're given a silly comic relief character who serves no other purpose than merchandising and comic relief. All of the other characters find him irritating and stupid, and their sniping comments go over his head. His people have made him an outcast, and while he does serve as a path to building an alliance with the Gungans, his character could've been replaced by a boat and a map of the Naboo forests. Chewbacca appears, because Hey! Chewie! YAYYYYYYYY George Lucas has Obi-Wan go to the streets for clues, looking up an old friend who runs a diner. While the start of this idea is promising, Obi-Wan ends up in a setting that evokes nostalgia in the viewer - not Obi-Wan. It makes no sense for a 1950s U.S.A. diner to be present on Coruscant for anyone on screen - it may work for us, but, again - George Lucas loves Americana, and the diner is not thematically significant to the characters, and therefore, the film. Arguably Good/Decent Storytelling We got a scene of Anakin "accidentally" flying the Naboo fighter into space and "accidentally" blowing up the droid control ship to show how easily things came to him. Zam Wessel, a shapeshifter, tries to kill Padme and fails, and is killed by Jango before she can divulge who hired her. Obi-Wan tracks the dart that kills her to a cloning facility on a planet that's not on record. This creates confusion/distrust, and despite all the red flags, Obi-Wan relays that there's a clone army waiting for the panicked Jedi, who quickly utilize it. The only voices of reason against using the army are effectively negated - Qui-Gon is dead, Obi-Wan was on Geonosis, and Yoda was likely overruled by the rest of the Jedi. Why are the Jedi panicked? The Jedi spend all their time isolated in an ivory tower, making decisions about things they have no first-hand knowledge, and dismiss a promising student because he's threatening to their position. Their growing weakness in using the Force is planned to be hidden. Given enough time, the ruling class of Jedi would have become corrupt, and many would have turned to become Sith. Once upon a time, the Jedi likely served a great purpose, and helped guide and assist the galaxy. Now, they're part of the government that fails everyone, and merely exist to keep themselves on top. Anakin Skywalker is told by Chancellor Palpatine (or whatever position he is) that the dark side of the force can help him save his loved ones. Literally saying THE DARK SIDE forces Anakin to report Palpatine to the Jedi council, even as he's filled with doubt. The Jedi tell him to stay home while they arrest him, because he's clearly conflicted. Anakin, already feeling minimized and disrespected, and fearful for Padme, becomes upset, and goes to try and reason with everyone - and eventually helps Palpatine when forced to choose. Count Dooku helps lead the Separatists, who want to leave the Republic, and do their own thing, even if they have to fight to leave. Their armies consist mostly of droids, but also utilize Geonosians and other foreign-looking aliens. Humans appear to be the dominant race of the galaxy, who feel threatened by "foreigners" leaving their rule, and by being attacked by the classless servant race they built. When the war ends, no military droids are allowed to exist, and remaining droids are treated as property, less than sub-human, even by the 'good' guys. The Empire itself consists entirely of humans. Palpatine plays on this fear to build support, even if not well described on screen. Now, very little of that is well-acted, paced, or what have you - which is why, even though the film has some good "stuff", they're still terrible and unenjoyable films. A lot of the basics are there, and with a good editor and better advisors, the prequels could have been strong films. I wonder how much George's team miss Marcia?
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Jan 7, 2016 19:59
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Ah yes closing it with the Marcia Lucas conspiracy. A tour de force of Lucas Criticism.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:04
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euphronius posted:Ah yes closing it with the Marcia Lucas conspiracy. Oh, I have zero clue how much she influenced things other than comments from people on crew/set that said she was the voice of reason to George. Who else is missing between the OT and PT?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:05
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hemale in pain posted:why would you read a star wars novel lol Because I was a teenager and the guy who wrote that one is pretty good, I guess.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:07
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computer parts posted:If you ever wonder why in Nolan films they have a character that spells everything out (like the guard in The Dark Knight during the Joker chase), this is pretty much why. I mean I groaned at the unnecessary lingering shot of the spinning top at the end of Inception, but I also appreciate the "wwhhuuUUUUHH???!???!?!" reaction from the 90% of the audience who needed it I guess.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:08
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Red posted:Who else is missing between the OT and PT?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:10
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In my opinion Nolan, as he became more successful and his budgets got bigger, definitely introduces tons of expository elements into his movies to make sure the audiences don't ever have to wonder.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:11
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For reals though, the PT could have done with a decent script editor. I get the intent behind dialogue lines like: Anakin: You are so…beautiful. Padme: It’s only because I’m so in love. Anakin: No. No, it’s because I’m so in love with you. Padme: Then love has blinded you? Anakin: Well…that’s not exactly what I meant. Padme: But it’s probably true. but they could have been delivered in a way where they remotely sound like something people might actually say
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Jan 7, 2016 20:12
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Red posted:There's stuff in there that's good AND bad. Some of your other ones are arguable but come the gently caress on with these ones, you can't be that dense.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:13
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Lots of dumb words about Jar Jar Or, option three: he is clumsy but can also do a cool flip? Threepio gets treated like poo poo and is super annoying to the characters like Jar Jar and he can speak a ton of languages. To this day I do not get what people's issue is with Jar Jar; he's honestly not even that bad. Compare him to Threepio; he's fits the same role, even down to the lovely way the characters treat him. (In before: "he steps in poo and sounds dumb")
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Jan 7, 2016 20:15
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Those auralnauts YouTubes have completely ruined the pt 3po for me. It is so funny.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:17
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Waffles Inc. posted:Or, option three: he is clumsy but can also do a cool flip? Threepio gets treated like poo poo and is super annoying to the characters like Jar Jar and he can speak a ton of languages. He's symbolic of the entire PT, so people lob every "bad" word they can think at him (he's annoying, he's racist, etc).
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Jan 7, 2016 20:19
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Waffles Inc. posted:To this day I do not get what people's issue is with Jar Jar; he's honestly not even that bad. Compare him to Threepio; he's fits the same role, even down to the lovely way the characters treat him. ___ Wars fans don't like ___ Wars
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Jan 7, 2016 20:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Phantom Menace exists specifically to show the Jedi operating at their best. The point of the movies is that the Jedi are flawed from the beginning. What are the jedis ideals and why are they bad?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:19
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Jar Jar has a high Dexterity but rolls a lot of 1s.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:20
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A Steampunk Gent posted:For reals though, the PT could have done with a decent script editor. I get the intent behind dialogue lines like: it's two dorky characters, one of whom is a former slave whose development is so arrested he's only now as a young man beginning to lash out and feel real emotions and the other is a woman who has been in politics her whole life, likely without ever having been able to form any real attachments to anyone tl;dr they're two emotionally stunted kids who desperately want to gently caress eachother and that reaction you're having is likely the same one you would have if you listened to two 15 year olds flirt in real life, specifically one between a dumb homeschooled jock and a girl who does model UN
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Jan 7, 2016 20:21
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greatn posted:Some of your other ones are arguable but come the gently caress on with these ones, you can't be that dense. Then prove me wrong? I don't mind being wrong at all there, but the man loves cars and the 50s. Explaining away that the race was Anakin's struggle to escape or something might sound right, but still looks like justifying a personal favorite choice. Terrorist Fistbump posted:Dozens of people who had creative influence on the OT didn't participate in the PT. Agreed, absolutely. But... doesn't an editor have a lot to do with the finished product?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:22
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When I was a teenager I was exceptionally smooth and not awkward at all.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:22
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Red posted:Then prove me wrong? I don't mind being wrong at all there, but the man loves cars and the 50s. Explaining away that the race was Anakin's struggle to escape or something might sound right, but still looks like justifying a personal favorite choice. Regarding the diner specifically there is like 20 pages of discussion on it in the past week.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:23
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NecroMonster posted:Well Lucas himself disallowed any portrayal of Jedi as evil or even morally gray within all EU materials for, last I checked, the whole time he was in possession of the Star Wars IP. He was also vocally critical of EU stories that attempted to introduce moral subtly or nuance into Star Wars. Hell he even re-edited his own film to, famously, remove a bit of nuance from the portrayal of a character that I'm sure I don't need to even say the name of for people to get this reference. It wasn't that he disliked moral ambiguity. It was more that he didn't like the particular type of moral ambiguity the EU was going for. The EU was trying to say stuff like "There's no such thing as the dark side and the light side, it's all the same." That's obviously not what Star Wars is all about. Star Wars is about good and evil, and being able to tell the difference. The Jedi of the PT were flawed because they lost the ability to tell the difference. They reason they were flawed isn't because they weren't moral relativists like Palpatine. In fact, it's because they succumbed to moral relativism that they caused their own destruction.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:26
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I actually picked up the Force Awakens novelization last night. Been reading it slowly, its not bad so far (still on Jakku). My only real complaint is BB-8, whenever someone says his name in dialogue instead of BB-8 it is spelled "Beebee-ate". Now I've always liked "Artoo" or "Threepio", but for some reason the "ate" part of BB-8's name spelled out in dialogue bugs the poo poo out of me. [edit] Kylo is even more wordy and over-wrought in his dialogue in the book. He's trying so hard to sound cool, intelligent, and menacing. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:27
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euphronius posted:Regarding the diner specifically there is like 20 pages of discussion on it in the past week. And I just posted that it doesn't make sense if it only reminds the viewer, not the character, of that era.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:28
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