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Red posted:Agreed, absolutely. But... doesn't an editor have a lot to do with the finished product?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:30
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euphronius posted:When I was a teenager I was exceptionally smooth and not awkward at all. There are ways to write teenagers as endearingly overwrought and dorkily genuine, but the prequel trilogy misses that mark quite widely. What should, at least, be charmingly mawkish falls flat to the ground. The romantic relationship between Anakin and Padme is one of the linchpins of the prequel trilogy, so its failure is fairly dire.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:30
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How in the hell is the podrace not important to the story? It's literally Anakin battling selflessly to help these strangers he's never met - while, unknowingly, fighting for his own freedom. But, all the while, there's troubling subtext: -Fate chose his mother to be saved, but Quigon changed the outcome. Anakin's triumph unwittingly dooms his mother. -Several people die in the race, and nobody cares because they're aliens. -The protagonists' emphasis is on defeating the low-level thug Sebulba while the actual villain who runs the death races - Jabba - is ignored. -This is one of several prequel scenes in which emphasis is placed on an audience being distracted by spectacle. -Sandpeople take potshots from the margins, underlining that issue. The entire podrace is like a microcosmic distillation of the narrative that also doubles as Episode 1's 'cantina' sequence, showing us that a great deal of the poor in this universe aren't human. corn in the fridge posted:What are the jedis ideals and why are they bad? -Maintaining 'harmony' through the elimination of 'bad people'. -Positive knowledge over authentic belief (e.g. creationism). -Elitism. -Transhumanism. -Multiculturalism instead of antiracism....
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Jan 7, 2016 20:34
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Phylodox posted:There are ways to write teenagers as endearingly overwrought and dorkily genuine, but the prequel trilogy misses that mark quite widely. What should, at least, be charmingly mawkish falls flat to the ground. The romantic relationship between Anakin and Padme is one of the linchpins of the prequel trilogy, so its failure is fairly dire. I think it's alright--not the best depiction of teenage love, but the best depiction of a monastic messianic former slave and senator/former queen falling in lust then love I've ever seen
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Jan 7, 2016 20:34
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Red posted:Agreed, absolutely. But... doesn't an editor have a lot to do with the finished product? George Lucas himself was essentially the primary editor on all six of the original movies. It's literally the reason he even makes movies in the first place. He's always said editing is the only part of the movie-making process he actually enjoys doing. Most directors collaborate with their editor/s to some degree, but Lucas is known for being particularly involved with it at every stage of the process. He edited the gunport battle sequence in A New Hope entirely on his own because no one else knew how to do it. George Lucas is probably one of the worst examples you could possibly think of if you were trying to make a case for a director being saved by an editing process he had no part in. No one's saying Marcia Lucas (and Paul Hirsch, and Richard Chew) weren't exceptional editors who deserved their Academy Award. But it's not doing them any real credit to use them as cynical props in a ploy to discredit the director who gave them the opportunity in the first place. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:35
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:The Marcia Lucas Success Theory is something cooked up by people desperate to attribute the perceived quality difference between the OT and PT to one factor. It ignores how films are made from a creative and a technical perspective. It is a canard. You're correct, but having the editor be the same person that can personally go up to the creator and hold their ground while saying "no", and have input on the finished product seems significant. She's not the magic fix, but she'd have some significant effect. Kind of like how they figured out how valuable it is, statistically, to have catchers "frame" pitches in baseball. (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/pitch-framing-and-a-peek-inside-the-industry/) Having influence to 'correct' the final product, you see.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:35
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Phylodox posted:There are ways to write teenagers as endearingly overwrought and dorkily genuine, but the prequel trilogy misses that mark quite widely. What should, at least, be charmingly mawkish falls flat to the ground. The romantic relationship between Anakin and Padme is one of the linchpins of the prequel trilogy, so its failure is fairly dire. You mean the relationship where Anakin murders Padme? Yes it was a healthy relationship and totally normal. Joanie and chachi. Sonny and Cher..
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Jan 7, 2016 20:36
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Cnut the Great posted:George Lucas himself was essentially the primary editor on all six of the original movies. It's literally the reason he even makes movies in the first place. He's always said editing is the only part of the movie-making process he actually enjoys doing. Most directors collaborate with their editor/s to some degree, but Lucas is known for being particularly involved with it at every stage of the process. He edited the gunport battle sequence in A New Hope entirely on his own because no one else knew how to do it. Do you have any link to read more about this? I'm genuinely curious about that. Above all else, Lucas is a film nerd.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:-Sandpeople take potshots from the margins, underlining that issue. This is one of my favourite bits because it acts like a bellwether. I imagine people who don't like the prequels just look at it as: Lucas wanted the sand people to do a shooty-shooty LOOK HE EVEN DOES THE RAISED ARMS ABOVE HEAD l-o-l marcia lucas would've made him edit that
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Jan 7, 2016 20:37
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Waffles Inc. posted:it's two dorky characters, one of whom is a former slave whose development is so arrested he's only now as a young man beginning to lash out and feel real emotions and the other is a woman who has been in politics her whole life, likely without ever having been able to form any real attachments to anyone Padme was in her mid twenties though, she's sheltered but she's also someone who talks to other people for a living and has been for the last decade, writing her as the same type of idiot clown teenager speaks in childish platitudes at the very least shows a failure of imagination of Lucas' part
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Jan 7, 2016 20:38
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Cnut the Great posted:He edited the gunport battle sequence in A New Hope entirely on his own because no one else knew how to do it. Probably the best edited scene in the Star Wars saga.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:39
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I actually picked up the Force Awakens novelization last night. Been reading it slowly, its not bad so far (still on Jakku). My only real complaint is BB-8, whenever someone says his name in dialogue instead of BB-8 it is spelled "Beebee-ate". Now I've always liked "Artoo" or "Threepio", but for some reason the "ate" part of BB-8's name spelled out in dialogue bugs the poo poo out of me. wtf at all of those
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Jan 7, 2016 20:41
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Lucas also gave Coppola the idea to intercut the executions with the baptism in The Godfather, so he gets the benefit of the doubt from me when it comes to editing.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:41
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euphronius posted:You mean the relationship where Anakin murders Padme? Yes it was a healthy relationship and totally normal. Joanie and chachi. Sonny and Cher.. Dude, come on. Why does the audience care about the violent, tragic end of this relationship if they haven't been invested in it to begin with? Romeo and Juliet ends with a double suicide, but it's an enduring tragedy because we're led to care so deeply about them first, despite them being dumb teenagers.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:41
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On of my favorite parts of tfa is when - after the bottom turret is locked into place by damage- Rey angled the Falcon so that Finn has a clear shot. That was awesome. Also I loved how they aped Anakins movements in the pod race with Rey piloting the falcon.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:41
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Phylodox posted:Dude, come on. Why does the audience care about the violent, tragic end of this relationship if they haven't been invested in it to begin with? Romeo and Juliet ends with a double suicide, but it's an enduring tragedy because we're led to care so deeply about them first, despite them being dumb teenagers. Right it's not Romeo and Juliet. Exactly. I think I said that two weeks ago or something.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:44
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Lucas is an extremely good writer: Anakin: You're a Jedi Knight, aren't you? Quigon: What makes you think that? Anakin: I saw your laser sword. Only Jedi carry that kind of weapon.  Quigon: Perhaps I killed a Jedi and stole it from him.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:45
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Red posted:You're correct, but having the editor be the same person that can personally go up to the creator and hold their ground while saying "no", and have input on the finished product seems significant. She's not the magic fix, but she'd have some significant effect.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:45
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Lucas is an extremely good writer: Those lines have nothing to do with that screenshot.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:47
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Padme was in her mid twenties though, she's sheltered but she's also someone who talks to other people for a living and has been for the last decade, writing her as the same type of idiot clown teenager speaks in childish platitudes at the very least shows a failure of imagination of Lucas' part We don't really know how much Padme an Anakin were sheltered. We can only infer it from poor writing and poorly delivered dialog. Obi-wan was raised by the Jedi and he seems to be very socially aware and capable, as did Qui-Gon. I even enjoy the prequels, for what they are, it's just that all this evidence and attempts at redemption (trolling) are just unfounded bullshit. They're fun movies with some major failings that can't be explained away with death-of-the-author nonsense; just like the OT.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:49
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Steve2911 posted:Those lines have nothing to do with that screenshot. Jivjov?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:49
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Steve2911 posted:Those lines have nothing to do with that screenshot. They do. Obi-Wan "killed" Anakin and took his sabre and gave it to Luke later. The Qui-Gon dialog is foreshadowing.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:50
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Noam Chomsky posted:They do. Obi-Wan "killed" Anakin and took his sabre and gave it to Luke later. The Qui-Gon dialog is foreshadowing. From a certain point of view I guess.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:52
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euphronius posted:Those auralnauts YouTubes have completely ruined the pt 3po for me. It is so funny. I agree that Creepio would make a great father.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:53
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euphronius posted:Right it's not Romeo and Juliet. Exactly. I think I said that two weeks ago or something. I don't know if you're genuinely missing the point or just being willfully obtuse.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:54
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Noam Chomsky posted:They do. Obi-Wan "killed" Anakin and took his sabre and gave it to Luke later. The Qui-Gon dialog is foreshadowing. Not really. Qui Gon has nothing to do with that lightsabre or that scene, Obi Wan's not even in that scene, Obi Wan didn't kill Anakin and it's a different lightsabre. gently caress your 'Star Wars'.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:54
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:The entire point of the Marcia Lucas Success Theory is that she is the magic fix and that Jorge can't do poo poo without her. This isn't a truth-is-in-the-middle thing because a good editor will always have a significant effect on the final product. But the Theory is not arguing that. She hasn't done anything since 1983 in the film industry, so how can we really quantify her value?
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Jan 7, 2016 20:55
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Steve2911 posted:Not really. Qui Gon has nothing to do with that lightsabre or that scene, Obi Wan's not even in that scene, Obi Wan didn't kill Anakin and it's a different lightsabre. Jivjov rereg spotted
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Jan 7, 2016 20:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Jivjov? Waffles Inc. posted:Jivjov rereg spotted
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Jan 7, 2016 20:58
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Phylodox posted:I don't know if you're genuinely missing the point or just being willfully obtuse. They aren't r and j so going into it looking for r and j will disappoint you
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Jan 7, 2016 20:58
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Red posted:She hasn't done anything since 1983 in the film industry, so how can we really quantify her value? You're right. It's impossible to know what percent of the goodness of the OT is due to her influence, so we must assume that she was the missing ingredient on the PT creative team that turned them into massive piles of bantha poodoo. There's nothing at all wrong with that line of thought.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:01
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Quigon literally says not to trust someone just because they're holding a laser sword, and it went right over people's heads. This also links him to Greivous, who actually is just a dude who killed a bunch of Jedi and stole their laser swords.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:04
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euphronius posted:They aren't r and j so going into it looking for r and j will disappoint you You're being a jivjov, dude. The emotional core of your story, even if that story ends in tragedy, should engage the audience. Especially if it's a tragedy.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:06
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Jan 7, 2016 21:08
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Phylodox posted:You're being a jivjov, dude. The emotional core of your story, even if that story ends in tragedy, should engage the audience. Especially if it's a tragedy. The emotional core of Episode 2 is Yoda.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:08
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Phylodox posted:You're being a jivjov, dude. The emotional core of your story, even if that story ends in tragedy, should engage the audience. Especially if it's a tragedy. I think anyone who has actually seen Romeo and Juliet would agree that they're both really ridiculous melodramatic teenagers who were definitely not in love and just wanted to gently caress and have that be OK by 16th century standards Shakespeare didn't mean for us to fawn over those two, we're meant to roll our eyes at them
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Jan 7, 2016 21:10
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Waffles Inc. posted:I think anyone who has actually seen Romeo and Juliet would agree that they're both really ridiculous melodramatic teenagers who were definitely not in love and just wanted to gently caress and have that be OK by 16th century standards This is actually explicit if you read audience reactions from the 16th century.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:12
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an skeleton posted:I don't like this because you're conflating/combining "bad idea/poor execution" with mindless greed. If anything it is more like what SMG said; Jar Jar is an alien fish dude who has some superhuman abilities, which comes off on the screen as ridiculous because Jar Jar is basically a goofy fish guy who performs feats that normally are associated with force sensitivity. Since we assume Jar Jar is not force-sensitive, it comes off as cartoonish and incongruent with Jar Jar's characterization. Is it so hard to imagine that a non-human would be "superhuman" in some respects? Chewbacca has superhuman strength. C-3PO has superhuman linguistic ability. Maz has superhuman longevity. And so forth.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:16
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Anakin and Padme's romance is one of the central focuses of RotS though. Funnily enough, once Anakin goes off the deep end it works alot better; Obi-Wan's 'The child is his? I'm so sorry', Anakin's wile eyed ranting on Mustafar, I just don't buy Padme flipping between worldly democratic idealist 'This is how democracy dies? etc' and the hopelessly infatuated teenage doormat in her scenes with Anakin. I maintain a competent co-writer really could have helped develop whatever it was George was exactly aiming for with Padme, as he doesn't seem to have a hand for writing romance or female characters
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Jan 7, 2016 21:21
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Waffles Inc. posted:I think anyone who has actually seen Romeo and Juliet would agree that they're both really ridiculous melodramatic teenagers who were definitely not in love and just wanted to gently caress and have that be OK by 16th century standards This is exactly what I said. They're mawkish and overwrought, but written in such a way that we care about what happens to them. Padme and Anakin come off as stilted and artificial.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:23
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