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ImpAtom posted:That is because Shades of Grey don't really fit what the Force is. You know I've been trying to figure out why those sorts of stories bug me so much (in a more eloquent way than "it feels like fanfiction") but I really like your posts. It's one of those ideas that seems clever at first but becomes ludicrous when you think about it. It would be like if a Nazi* walked on screen and said "I'm going to use my hatred and racism, for good or neutral purposes!" and everyone nodded as if he figured out the big secret. *Not a Godwin, The Empire did it first. edit: That said, I agree that the old Jedi Order was supposed to be ineffectual and that the prequels were way too swingy about actually depicting that. There are some arguments that it's still there (like how the Jedi flood the arena in Episode II yet don't really seem to accomplish anything), but if you're already going to be as unsubtle as Star Wars you shouldn't have to read between the lines for something really major like that. mycot fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 04:07
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Sentinel Red posted:It's funny to see this because it was Scorchy's awesome LP that first drew me here but as time has passed...yeah, I just find it faintly embarrassing nowadays, a load of try-hard, edgy bobbins. Retconning Revan into some ridiculous Force Batman with wheels within wheels within plots within plans all along was lame, the new characters are garbage ("wow guys, what if we have Han and Chewie...but evil?!") and everyone takes a huge backseat because Avellone and chums are too busy wanking themselves over Kreia till their dicks snap. And then there's the small matter of what a broken, buggy horrorshow it is to actually play. Meh, I rather like the questions it asks, if not sometimes the answers it comes up with. I think people raving about KOTR2 often fail to note Kreia is the VILLAIN, which should quite properly bring a little skepticism into play about her lessons being correct ones (consider she seems to be contemptuous of everybody but the Exile; given the Exile needed their help in the end, I would say that's pretty dumb of Kreia, no?). Still, as far as deconstructing the Star Wars universe goes, I rather like some of the thoughts it brings up, Kreia's observation the Sith are shaped by their hatred of the Jedi in particular. Think about it; if you're going to rebel against the Jedi, why bother with still using lightsabers, or the similar dress code? Hell, I definitely get the impression the Emperor was more focused on the "kill the Jedi" part of his plan rather than the "rule the galaxy" bit; he certainly was a crappy galactic overlord considering how much opposition he stirred up against himself by being a needless dick rather than, say, ruthlessly pragmatic. His Empire crashed pretty drat quick after he was removed from the picture, not exactly the sign of a well built government. Also note how at his moment of "triumph" he's dicking around with Luke instead of, oh, monitoring the battle outside. So, yeah, over-focused on the Jedi rather than the rest of the universe. Applies to the new film too; Snoke seems rather hung up on Jedi too given how much effort went into the business with Luke instead of focusing on the Republic/Resistance except insofar as they were a threat vis a vis Luke. Hell, they reveal their super weapon and trash the Republic capital solely to undercut the Resistance as they're about to find Luke instead of, oh, part of a cunning plan with supporting forces ready to take advantage of the sudden power vacuum to RECONQUOR the galaxy like they supposedly want to. At least Tarkin used the Death Star with an eye towards cowing the Rebellion instead of an emergency "oh crap, they're gonna find one guy!" sudden reaction. So, I have to give KOTOR2 credit for making me reconsider and appreciate other parts of Star Wars more, which is the purpose of a good deconstructive work really. Just can't assume "everything you know is wrong OMG!!!" in a good deconstruction; sometimes the correct answer is the one you came up with the first time.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:19
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Vader Down wrapped up today. I enjoyed it. Some good Wookie fightin'
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Jan 7, 2016 04:46
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Kreia is literally the best Star Wars character ever. She was actually interesting. A rare feat.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:14
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CharlestheHammer posted:Kreia is literally the best Star Wars character ever. She was actually interesting. A rare feat. She's somewhat interesting in the story, I still hate what people take from the game. It's some bullshit "truth in the middle" the internet loves so much, instead of "this evil Sith is more subtle than your usual Sith, but is still a loving Sith and you as PC follow her into Darkness". As ImpAtom said, this is Star Wars, there is no grey if you use the Force, you are either good or evil. This unrealistic, fairy tale-like simple world view is the fun of it. And Kreia and all the EU stuff similar to her simply don't fit there. Trying to make Star Wars more complicated, realistic and "grey" is a mistake that leads to Bug Orgies.
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Jan 7, 2016 13:45
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I thought the point of Kreia was that she was a nihilist above all else (or maybe a kind of Force misotheist) and her affiliation with the Sith, at least by the time you meet her in the game, is a means to an end for her, because she wants to destroy the Force. So the Jedi and the Sith are playing a game with each other, but Kreia's plan is to sweep all the pieces off the table and smash the board. It has been a long while since I played either KOTOR game so I might be going on faulty memories of the game, though.
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Jan 7, 2016 14:40
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One thing I think people miss about Kriea is that she is intentionally a Devil figure. Her Sith name is Darth Treya and her eventual goal is overthrowing Space God in the name of freedom from its manipulations. She is well-written in that you can entirely understand why she is in that role and what her goal is but at the same time she is (intentionally) filling the role of the Lucifer-Who-Fell. She's not really a nihilist and not a Force Atheist. She is someone who completely and utterly believes that God exists and has enough egotism and ambition that the idea of an omnipotent deity controlling her is unacceptable to the point that her only reasonable choice on a personal level is to find a way to sever that forever. It's a perfect reasonable goal for a villain to have but I think a lot of people make the mistake of assuming she is factually correct in everything she says and it isn't through the lens of her own personal worldview like everything else she says. It's the kind of viewpoint I suspect a lot of people have sympathies for. (Especially in video games where the idea of slaying god or gods to bring about free will is a relatively common heroic plot.) It's just also done through the lens of a world where the Force is presented as benevolent and positive which is what gives Kreia the interesting twist. She would much rather have free will even over theoretically benevolent leadership and even when the consequences of her action could be theoretically catastrophic.. She is effectively 'better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" embodied. To get back on topic: I saw the Vader TPB in stores today. Is the series ongoing or does that have everything? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 16:41
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It's ongoing. Volume 2 just came out. For some added info: Star Wars, Darth Vader, and Kanan are ongoing, though Kanan has been canceled. Princess Leia, Shattered Empire, Lando, Chewbacca, and Obi-Wan and Anakin are minis.
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Jan 7, 2016 17:13
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Kanan has been cancelled? I thought it was extended past 5 issues? And why would you cancel Kanan, the Kanan comic was cool. 
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Jan 7, 2016 18:23
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Issue 12 will be the last one. It's selling like 1/3-1/2 of what the other two ongoings are doing and speculation is that Marvel/Disney want Star Wars ongoing to be doing really well, so they'll probably slot some more minis into its publishing spot.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:13
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ImpAtom posted:One thing I think people miss about Kriea is that she is intentionally a Devil figure. Her Sith name is Darth Treya and her eventual goal is overthrowing Space God in the name of freedom from its manipulations. She is well-written in that you can entirely understand why she is in that role and what her goal is but at the same time she is (intentionally) filling the role of the Lucifer-Who-Fell. She's not really a nihilist and not a Force Atheist. She is someone who completely and utterly believes that God exists and has enough egotism and ambition that the idea of an omnipotent deity controlling her is unacceptable to the point that her only reasonable choice on a personal level is to find a way to sever that forever. I think the best line on Kreia is her own: "that perhaps these are just the justifications of an old woman who has grown dependent on a thing she hates." That and Atton's line when it's revealed she's a Sith to the tune of "seriously, this was a surprise to you?" Kreia is a Sith who has a few genuine points re: the Jedi and Sith both being deeply stupid, because the Jedi and Sith are both deeply stupid. But if you turn her own worldview back on her, man-oh-man are the results unflattering. You lost your boyfriend to your student. So you decided to kill God. Didn't pan out.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:37
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Ze Pollack posted:Kreia is a Sith who has a few genuine points re: the Jedi and Sith both being deeply stupid, because the Jedi and Sith are both deeply stupid. But if you turn her own worldview back on her, man-oh-man are the results unflattering. Kreia's supposed to be a dickbag since the player can't easily MinMax her relationship responses. She's supremely frustrating from a mechanics perspective. To find out that she's kind of throwing a tantrum and isn't some revolutionary mentor is pretty fitting. I still think Kreia is a great character, even if she doesn't fit the ethos of Lucasian Star Wars.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:58
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I'd argue she's a great character because she doesn't buy into the ethos of "Lucasian Star Wars". You should absolutely not have everyone on the same philosophical page all the time, that'd be boring as hell. The problem just comes from a bunch of fans who also don't want to buy into the ethos deciding she's right and essentially propagating a Force Cathar Heresy.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:05
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Anywho, the conclusion of Vader Down...thoughts?
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Jan 8, 2016 00:21
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Endless Mike posted:Issue 12 will be the last one. It's selling like 1/3-1/2 of what the other two ongoings are doing and speculation is that Marvel/Disney want Star Wars ongoing to be doing really well, so they'll probably slot some more minis into its publishing spot. That's doesn't bode well for the odds of Marvel doing comics that aren't about major movie characters in the future.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:34
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Ensign_Ricky posted:Anywho, the conclusion of Vader Down...thoughts? It was neat, got the feel of the characters right. Vader using his knowledge of engines to force choke the space fuel lines or whatever at the end was cool.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:44
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Kreia Was Right. She was also evil and manipulative and a horrible person. The "answer lies in the middle" is a tired trope that people get mad about a lot. Kreia only cared about results, and did what she felt the situation required. People aren't always completely consistent, as much as we'd often like to believe we are. The Jedi fail at their rules constantly in the movies, and as pointed out earlier, Luke wins when he stops trying to do what the Jedi advise him to. (He also gets his hand chopped off but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.) This kind of clashes with Lucasian Force stuff, but I think we may see more grey areas in the new movies. Ren is not completely evil, for instance. He's trying really hard to be, but it's so hard.  Seriously, though. We will probably be seeing more grey areas as people other than Lucas steer the franchise. It will be interesting to see. boom boom boom posted:That's doesn't bode well for the odds of Marvel doing comics that aren't about major movie characters in the future. I find Marvel's lack of faith... disturbing. That's a real shame. I hope they at least make some compelling miniseries in that timeframe. Better storytelling options that way I think.
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Jan 8, 2016 01:02
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I want an ongoing about whatever Ahsokha was doing in the 15 years between Clone Wars and Rebels. She is potentially very interesting as a character who sensed some of the flaws in the Jedi Order before their destruction, and left the order on her own. She's also a character who has a very personal connection to Vader, but doesn't become a hermit like Obi-Wan and Yoda, and also has extensive involvement in the early rebellion. I believe I read somewhere that long-term plans for Clone Wars had it not been cancelled likely would have involved many plot arcs featuring her character on her own, eventually going past Revenge of the Sith.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:25
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Ahsoka during O-66 could be pretty cool. Seeing her reaction to the Order's destruction and possibly dealing with being hunted herself.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:29
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Luke wins when he stops trying to do what the Jedi advise him to. (He also gets his hand chopped off but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.) This kind of clashes with Lucasian Force stuff, but I think we may see more grey areas in the new movies. Ren is not completely evil, for instance. He's trying really hard to be, but it's so hard. That wasn't about some bulshit Grey Jedi path or whatever it was about Luke finding the right way to the Force without letting established dogma cloud his path. It's the fresh eyes of youth seeing the failing of the old ways, it's a story of a young man rejecting the establishment and finding the true path to
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Jan 8, 2016 02:29
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SirDan3k posted:That wasn't about some bulshit Grey Jedi path or whatever it was about Luke finding the right way to the Force without letting established dogma cloud his path. Yes. Correct. I'm sort of meandering a bit and talking about more than one thing, sorry for the confusion.
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Jan 8, 2016 08:30
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SirDan3k posted:it's a story of a young man rejecting the establishment and finding the true path to
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Jan 8, 2016 08:55
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boom boom boom posted:That's doesn't bode well for the odds of Marvel doing comics that aren't about major movie characters in the future. Not ongoings, but they'll likely continue to do miniseries. Mostly I just think non-OT stuff isn't going to perform as well as the OT stuff, and they're probably not going to start making TFA-era comics until the trilogy is done.
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Jan 8, 2016 13:56
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boom boom boom posted:That's doesn't bode well for the odds of Marvel doing comics that aren't about major movie characters in the future. Any sort of high sales mandate might be relaxed in the future. With Marvel comics in general the success of the movies has given the comic book side of the business a lot of leeway in letting a good quality yet lower than average book develop into better sales. Because it's easy to shrug off five thousand less copies sold when your movies are regularly clearly half a billion dollars.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:54
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 N..noto-sempai... In that vein, what did y'all think of the Chewie mini? I thought the story was kinda eh but I liked the characters and the art was amazing.
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Jan 8, 2016 22:33
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I liked it, though the only one I've really not liked (and was mostly just apathetic towards it, rather than disliking it) was the Leia mini because the art just didn't do anything for me, for some reason (the plot of gathering up Alderaanian survivors was cool though, however the final battle was a bit odd).
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Jan 8, 2016 23:02
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zoux posted:In that vein, what did y'all think of the Chewie mini? I thought the story was kinda eh but I liked the characters and the art was amazing. I really liked it. With a character that doesn't talk, I think the idea to go with a kind-hearted "Man with no name" type scenario worked really well.
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Jan 9, 2016 20:02
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I think people get a little mad at KotOR II without even understanding it. The fact is that the game isn't actually throwing out Star Wars' good/bad dichotomy. It seems that everyone forgets that at the end of the game the PC rejects Kreia's ideology, either for being a Jedi or to better kick puppies. You can even look back at some of the "lessons" Kreia tries to teach and their not always saying "blah blah shades of grey blah blah." but more trying to think through your actions rather than adhering to dogma.
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Jan 12, 2016 02:53
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Most people that get mad at KoTOR II are just annoyed at the people who don't get that she was presented as wrong and cling to the 50 Shades of Grey Jedi interpretation.
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Jan 12, 2016 05:00
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Yeah, from my PoV, Kreia was a Sith Lord trying to gently caress with the Exile by being contrarian and stuff (And/or hating the force so much she cooked up this crazy interpretation of it to try to make herself feel better).
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Jan 12, 2016 05:15
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And from my POV, it is the Jedi who are evil. 
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Jan 12, 2016 05:23
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The Jedi are just golden age Superman really.
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Jan 12, 2016 05:43
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You are all correct... from a certain point of view.
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Jan 12, 2016 05:59
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I think most people who dislike KOTOR II are mad about how the unmodded game completely spins off the rails for the final act, limping from Dantooine to the final battle on repurposed assets and unexplained cutscenes.
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Jan 12, 2016 06:59
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Kellsterik posted:I think most people who dislike KOTOR II are mad about how the unmodded game completely spins off the rails for the final act, limping from Dantooine to the final battle on repurposed assets and unexplained cutscenes.
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Jan 12, 2016 07:18
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Apparently in TFA Luke was going to talk to Anakin's ghost, who was part Anakin and part Vader but it got cut. According to this article, both Luke and Anakin are "grey" Jedi who are between light and dark. Of course, take this all with a huge grain of salt as it's early concept stuff that got cut and may have no bearing on Episode VIII at all. It also doesn't really fit with George Lucasian Star Wars but well, he isn't in charge anymore. http://screencrush.com/anakin-skywalker-star-wars-force-awakens/ I read through the remainder of Vader Down today. I like these comics, but I kinda hate how evil Indiana Jones girl has evil versions of R2-D2 and C-3PO. That's just dumb. I was hoping they'd get killed off. Mr. Grevious\Ackbar hybrid was also dumb but it was satisfying seeing Vader destroy his sorry rear end. This stuff is still better and less dumb than the old EU so far, but I can't help but feel that the regular Star Wars book is more solid than Vader. Also I really liked the Annual with the spy guy attempting to assassinate Palpatine. That's good stuff.
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Jan 12, 2016 17:47
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Gammatron 64 posted:Also I really liked the Annual with the spy guy attempting to assassinate Palpatine. That's good stuff. That one was great. Pure Palpatine. "I'm gonna cook up an elaborate plot to kill your rebel asses dead, and I'm gonna attend against common sense just so I can laugh at you. Loook behiiind youuu!" 
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Jan 12, 2016 18:13
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Galaga Galaxian posted:That one was great. Pure Palpatine. "I'm gonna cook up an elaborate plot to kill your rebel asses dead, and I'm gonna attend against common sense just so I can laugh at you. Loook behiiind youuu!" I love Palpatine. The only thing it was missing was him cackling gleefully as he zapped the dude. Also he probably doesn't even need guards or decoys as even if you have 7 super spies, they're not going to be able to take him down as he's a Sith Lord and all. I mean poo poo, just look at Vader Down where he pretty much wiped out a whole planet full of Rebels by himself.
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Jan 12, 2016 18:22
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Something that's been bugging me since I saw TFA: Did anyone else think they focused way to much on Han and the good guys when Ren killed him, I felt like that should have been more of a Ren moment, but they just kind of glossed over him after it happened. Maybe I need to see it again but it felt more like a scene that should have focused on the new guy instead of masterbaiting over the corpse of the old one. I thought the movie was okay, but I really didn't get any emotions out of it. I personally felt zero tension the whole film, I saw the credits pop up and was just like "Oh, was that it?" I think I would have enjoyed it, but I just had to many nit picks. Also did it feel like everything was shot in really tiny sets for anyone else? Like in Star Wars, Mos Eisley felt big, much bigger then just the Cantina, while all of the locations in TFA just seemed like that was all there was to the place. I'm also pretty sure that the same little rock corridor was used in both fights with Ren.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:29
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Gammatron 64 posted:I read through the remainder of Vader Down today. I like these comics, but I kinda hate how evil Indiana Jones girl has evil versions of R2-D2 and C-3PO. That's just dumb. Those are Vaders droids no? I can't remember the exact origin but I quite like how on the nose it is. Here's Anakins evil mirror right down to his droids.
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Jan 13, 2016 00:01
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