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Soggy Cereal posted:There are actually certain things unresolved, to be revealed later. The Force Awakens is not a stand alone movie, and depends on you coming back for the next two movies. This is because movie series nowadays are extremely high budget TV shows (see: Avengers, Harry Potter.) I actually love this but I think I'm in the minority. Rey is already not a normal person, though. She has origins steeped in mystery, she picks up on using more varied abilities with the Force quicker than any character we've seen thus far, Anakin's lightsaber calls out to her through the Force even though we didn't even know it was in any way sentient or had any sort of resonating effect with people prior to this, Obi-Wan's ghost whispers to her, an over a thousand year old individual with strength in the Force wants to her become a Jedi, and she sees visions pertaining to the Skywalker family. There being no payoff for all this beyond "Yeah, she's just strong in the Force and her parents were a couple of deadbeats who couldn't find any space orphanages to leave her at" would be really lame and anticlimactic. Beeez fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 04:55
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Phylodox posted:Yes, but the question is why does he want to be like Vader? Is it really something as simple as it being his birthright? Or is it because, for whatever reason, he feels he needs to be strong, and Vader embodies his (flawed) idea of strength? If it's the latter, then what is the reason he's forcing himself to be like Vader, despite the fact that he doesn't seem to want to? He is forcing himself to be like Vader when he'd rather not be. Ren (like many people) has internalized this hierarchy: The Last Psychiatrist, a great blog, posted:<doing awesome> He's done some bad things, and wants to stop, thinks about changing, but it's actually easier to just hate himself and carry on with the status quo, promising himself that this is the last destructive thing he'll do: quote:That's the last chip in the bag-- "whatever, might as well." That's the last swig, "I'm never drinking again." That's selling your stocks into a downturn, that's your sexual history, throwing it away one more time not because this time the guy is going to be great but because it's not going to be great, it's a sacrifice to the volcano. That's the cycle he (and Vader before him, and us, in less extreme forms) is caught in. I'm pretty sure they're setting it up for him to break out of it in VIII and IX. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 04:56
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Tots posted:Is there a goon hive mind agreed upon watch order for the movies? Let me tell you about my fan edit called Journal of the Whills where I edit some of the dumb poo poo out of the prequels and Special Editions, work back in some of the better deleted scenes from the prequels and then shove them in as a flashback after Empire Strikes Back. It goes Episodes IV, V, I, II, III, VI, VII... Teek fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 04:59
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Phylodox posted:Yes, but the question is why does he want to be like Vader? Is it really something as simple as it being his birthright? Or is it because, for whatever reason, he feels he needs to be strong, and Vader embodies his (flawed) idea of strength? If it's the latter, then what is the reason he's forcing himself to be like Vader, despite the fact that he doesn't seem to want to? I don't mean to repeat myself, but from what we see in A New Hope, why does Vader want to be like Vader? He was a student of Obi Wan's and there's clearly a significant relationship there, but that's all we get. And further, if we do bring in knowledge from the other movies, Vader eventually betrays that he doesn't want to be Vader. The first time Luke offers Vader the chance to turn back to the light, when they're on Endor, Vader sounds resigned and regretful. "It's too late for me, my son." Even as he takes his son - his only (to his knowledge at that point) child and last remnant of the family he turned to darkness in order to save - to damnation or death, Vader is deeply conflicted. The exact plot reason that made Kylo Ren decide that he needed to cosplay as Darth Vader is yet to be determined, just as it was with Vader when we were first introduced to him. However the thematic basis of his character is clearly established - arguably more so than it was for Vader before we knew his real identity or that he turned to evil because he wanted the power to save his wife. Like Vader at that particular moment in RotJ, Ren is tempted to be turn back and to be a decent man, but instead he steps over the threshold.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:01
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Beeez posted:Rey is already not a normal person, though. She has origins steeped in mystery, she picks up on using more varied abilities with the Force quicker than any character we've seen thus far, Anakin's lightsaber calls out to her through the Force even though we didn't even know it was in any way sentient or had any sort of resonating effect with people prior to this, Obi-Wan's ghost whispers to her, an over a thousand year old individual with strength in the Force wants to her become a Jedi, and she sees visions pertaining to the Skywalker family. There being no payoff for all this beyond "Yeah, she's just strong in the Force and her parents were a couple of deadbeats who couldn't find any space orphanages to leave her at" would be really lame and anticlimactic. I guess let me rephrase for her case - I'd rather that the payoff not be just who she is related to. It would be cool if the Force itself had chosen her for a special role in restoring the Jedi, but not just because she's in the right bloodline. Since the next film corresponds to ESB, the obvious temptation is to make some statement about parentage. And this is what every braindead clickbait writer is banking on. They're already focusing on entirely the wrong thing (I think.) From what I know of Rian Johnson, he's too smart for that, and it's going to bother people when it doesn't happen.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:12
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One thought I had was that maybe Finn isn't Force sensitive, specifically, but maybe the title, The Force Awakens, is in reference to the Force making itself known to everyone, not just the select few, and Finn is our window into that process.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:20
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Soggy Cereal posted:I guess let me rephrase for her case - I'd rather that the payoff not be just who she is related to. It would be cool if the Force itself had chosen her for a special role in restoring the Jedi, but not just because she's in the right bloodline. I think "No, she's the next, real Chosen One" would be a pretty lame payoff as well, to be honest. Like the prequels or not, they happened and are part of the saga. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but her being a clone of Anakin would be cool, though. It'd tie into the theme of Vader's legacy, it'd explain why whoever abandoned her isn't coming back(because they're just some Kaminoan or whatever rather than a loving parent), it'd explain why Anakin's lightsaber calls out to her, and it'd be less obvious than her being Luke's daughter and would be more unique than the Force just creating another Chosen One. The dichotomy between someone who is genetically identical to Vader trying to escape his shadow vs someone who is his grandson and feels he must follow in his footsteps might be interesting, too.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:21
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Rey is a complete nobody abandoned on Jakku by her lovely parents who were also complete nobodies, who are likely dead. A person without friends, family, or connections to anyone at all for Sith to pray upon. The perfect material for a Jedi.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:23
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NecroMonster posted:Rey is a complete nobody abandoned on Jakku by her lovely parents who were also complete nobodies, who are likely dead. Which doesn't explain most of what I mentioned. And considering she nearly turned to the Dark Side in her first Jedi fight she clearly isn't really free from temptation to the Dark Side. if anything, her isolation seems to have made it easier for her to form bonds, because she's desperate for connections.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:26
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I hope her parents are actually alive, and not anyone we know, but like lovely Han Solo, like if he actually was just selfish and took the money and ran.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:26
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Phylodox posted:One thought I had was that maybe Finn isn't Force sensitive, specifically, but maybe the title, The Force Awakens, is in reference to the Force making itself known to everyone, not just the select few, and Finn is our window into that process. It already is known to everyone, though. See: The Phantom Menace. I mean, from J.J.'s statements on the matter, it would appear that he doesn't really understand that, but surely the larger Lucasfilm story cabal does.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:27
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Beeez posted:Which doesn't explain most of what I mentioned. And considering she nearly turned to the Dark Side in her first Jedi fight she clearly isn't really free from temptation to the Dark Side. if anything, her isolation seems to have made it easier for her to form bonds, because she's desperate for connections. Yeah. Because she's actually going to fail to the the savior. It'll be Finn instead.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:28
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Cnut the Great posted:It already is known to everyone, though. See: The Phantom Menace. I mean that the Force will awaken in everyone. In Phantom Menace terms, everyone's midichlorian count will spontaneously skyrocket.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:30
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Kylo Ren kills his father because he loves him, despite everything. He is trying to overcome that love. In a sense it was love, very specific familial love, that killed Darth Vader and caused him to stray from his path, after all (or, rather, motivated him to a suicidal act of compassion). He wants to finish what (he thinks) his grandfather started. What did he start? What was Vader's greatest ambition? Bringing balance to the Force? Eradicating the Jedi? Overthrow the Emperor, take over the galaxy, impose peace and justice by force? Whatever Kylo Ren thinks Darth Vader was all about, it's obvious that he gave up on it when he decided to love his son instead. The shocking twist to parallel The Empire Strikes Back is poised to be something like the revelation of exactly what it is that Kylo Ren's ambitions entail, that requires him to defeat himself (as he claimed, inaccurately, to have done) and learn the ways of the Dark Side from Snoke.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:32
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This was probably posted already but I liked it. Nice blend of PT/OT footage and slightly cheesy music - "Obi-Wan remembers the truth." https://youtu.be/hN74bOubUug
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Jan 9, 2016 05:33
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Phylodox posted:I mean that the Force will awaken in everyone. In Phantom Menace terms, everyone's midichlorian count will spontaneously skyrocket. How is that going to work? Everyone in the galaxy is suddenly going to get superpowers now? Wouldn't that kind of break the universe? Or are you saying the story is going to be about the chaos that would ensue? For the record, I don't think that's what's going on. As far as I can remember, there isn't even any real indication in the film that Finn is Force-sensitive (in the Jedi sense). You don't need Jedi powers to use a lightsaber. Not unless you're trying to deflect blaster bolts or something.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:38
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Cnut the Great posted:How is that going to work? Everyone in the galaxy is suddenly going to get superpowers now? Wouldn't that kind of break the universe? Or are you saying the story is going to be about the chaos that would ensue? It could be unclear direction, but he seems to hear the screams of the Hosnian system, and Kylo says he has felt an awakening in the force after Finn defects but before Rey ever gets an inkling about the force.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:40
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Given that nobody is arguing Greivous was a sith cause he had lightsabers, I'm pretty sure you can use one without being a Jedi. Just like, a huge chunk of what makes it a functional weapon in a world of blasters is lost to you. Makes a goddamn hell of a bolt cutter though.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:40
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George Lucas' opinion is that you should watch them in Episode order.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:42
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Cnut the Great posted:How is that going to work? Everyone in the galaxy is suddenly going to get superpowers now? Wouldn't that kind of break the universe? Or are you saying the story is going to be about the chaos that would ensue? The Legend of Korra did a similar storyline. Korra is set in the Last Airbender world, where 150 years before or thereabouts all but one of the Airbender tribe got wiped out by the Firebenders (the Airbenders incidentally have a passing resemblance to the Jedi, at least in theory). Anyway, long story short people with air powers begin to spontaneously appear again, as though the world is balancing itself.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:42
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Cnut the Great posted:How is that going to work? Everyone in the galaxy is suddenly going to get superpowers now? Wouldn't that kind of break the universe? Or are you saying the story is going to be about the chaos that would ensue? People keep talking about subtle cues, like Force sound effects when Finn decides to go AWOL and Finn's reaction to the Starkiller's destruction of the Hosnian system. I'm going to see the movie again in IMAX next week, so I'll have a better idea of what to look for then. And I don't know what it would entail. Maybe it wouldn't entail everyone becoming Jedi, but something more subtle. Who knows? It would explain the title, kind of, and Finn's supposed Force sensitivity, if it exists. Right now maybes are all we have.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:44
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I'd rather Luke have turned evil/been possessed by evil than have a bunch of clones of vader/palpatine/obi-wan running around or whatever. But back to trying to come up with out-there theories based on readings (including crazy out there ones!) of the previous movies.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:45
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If everybody can hear the Force, why would they need to become Jedi?
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Jan 9, 2016 05:45
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Electromax posted:This was probably posted already but I liked it. Nice blend of PT/OT footage and slightly cheesy music - "Obi-Wan remembers the truth." Man, Lucas got some amazing pauses and facial reactions from Alec Guinness. I mean, it's Guinness, but still.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:46
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Red posted:Man, Lucas got some amazing pauses and facial reactions from Alec Guinness. I mean, it's Guinness, but still. You know you're a legendary actor when you can react to poo poo that won't happen for thirty years. Five years after your own death, no less.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:47
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Bongo Bill posted:If everybody can hear the Force, why would they need to become Jedi? why do their need to be Jedi? Nobody seems adamant their must be sith.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:47
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NecroMonster posted:I'd rather Luke have turned evil/been possessed by evil than have a bunch of clones of vader/palpatine/obi-wan running around or whatever. Luke turning to the dark side would be regressive character development and would throw off the structure of Luke's story, it would be way worse than some clones of major characters existing.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:48
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, there's a level of cynicism that just doesn't appear to coincide with anything we know about Lucas. He's always had an anti-establishment streak against the studios, but never against, like, storytelling or filmmaking. That's mixing up the fake idea of 'bad on purpose' with what the prequels are - very well-made films that celebrate 'outdated', unpopular styles.  Basic question: is Forbidden Planet a bad movie?  Note that I don't mean 'good for its time'.  Does the idea of it cause you to sneer?  MrMojok posted:How can you say that this dialogue generates an implied backstory for Dex, but also say that ANH never shows us that Luke wants to get away from the dreary moisture-farming existence on Tattooine? Isn't the case for Luke's motivation/backstory for wanting to escape made just as well as the one you're reading into the Dex scene? Because, it's exactly as you say: Luke's backstory is never shown, and neither is Dex's. That's a formal decision that leaves the audience no choice but to 'fill in the blanks'. Luke does not exist before A New Hope, and Dex only exists for a total of two minutes. What you end up with, with Dex, is 'friendship' in the abstract - the concept of unlikely friendship. This is reflected in Dex's design, where is he is as huggable as he is repulsive, with his grease-stained apron and moustache. He's an 'uncle' figure to the younger Obiwan. The big hugs and 'old buddy' stuff is a massive contrast to Obiwan's interactions with the younger Anakin: Obiwan: I haven't felt you this tense since we fell into that nest of gundarks. There's an intimacy to that line that's totally undercut by the elevator setting. Elevators are always a shorthand for uncomfortable overproximity. Everybody knows that experience of being shoved in a small space with people you barely know. Obiwan only makes things worse by comparing his situation to some sort of hellish bug pit. The joke falls flat. Naturally Anakin jumps at the chance to get away. Fans mistook this for 'failing to show friendship.' George Lucas is a very good writer. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 05:50
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Why don't the Sith just clone massive armies of themselves if clones inherit force sensitivity?
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Jan 9, 2016 05:52
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NecroMonster posted:Why don't the Sith just clone massive armies of themselves if clones inherit force sensitivity? Given the way dark side users are presented that seems like it would get counter intuitive to their aims real fast. Also as far as the films are concerned there is no indication clones also are force sensitive.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's mixing up the fake idea of 'bad on purpose' with what the prequels are - very well-made films that celebrate 'outdated', unpopular styles. You're trying to disprove my statement, that I think Lucas failed to convey some of the things he wanted to in the prequels, by highlighting things I don't actually consider to be failings of the prequels. They are, at times, very visually impressive movies.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:54
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NecroMonster posted:Why don't the Sith just clone massive armies of themselves if clones inherit force sensitivity? A thousand Palpatines would just backstab each other for a century. Also having an army of Jedi doesn't seem to have done much.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:55
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josh04 posted:It's Jar Jar/Child Anakin, the two characters who have their entire lives screwed up just by the Jedi passing through town Anakin was a slave and Jar Jar was considered a useless idiot by his own people. Arguably better than becoming an anti-messiah child-murderer and a senator that votes the emporer into power, respectively, from a certain point of view.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:57
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NecroMonster posted:Why don't the Sith just clone massive armies of themselves if clones inherit force sensitivity? There's a reason "Always two there are; no more, no less. A master and an apprentice." is a thing. They would all kill each other.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:57
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Noam Chomsky posted:Jar Jar was considered a useless idiot by his own people. Something he shares with Finn, arguably.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:58
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Red posted:That's not by accident. Abrams isn't working on either of them.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:58
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Phylodox posted:You know you're a legendary actor when you can react to poo poo that won't happen for thirty years. Five years after your own death, no less. It's just good casting to get a precognitive to play the part of the Jedi.
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Jan 9, 2016 06:00
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Phylodox posted:People keep talking about subtle cues, like Force sound effects when Finn decides to go AWOL and Finn's reaction to the Starkiller's destruction of the Hosnian system. I'm going to see the movie again in IMAX next week, so I'll have a better idea of what to look for then. Honestly the Starkiller thing is the weirdest one for me, just because like it just feels obtuse to film it like that if you want it to be clear there's people in the area screaming. Finn doesn't look toward the screaming. The two aliens he's with don't look at all, Finn just looks straight up. Also, it kinda feels like a dick move to tell a guy who isn't going to have the stuff to use it well against blasters and isn't trained with it to go use that lightsaber rather than you know advising him to grab a blaster from a stormtrooper the second you can. It kinda comes off as telling a guy to bring a knife to a gun fight and just keep using that knife. Gorelab fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 06:00
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Noam Chomsky posted:Abrams isn't working on either of them. He's Executive Producing the next one, at least.
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Jan 9, 2016 06:00
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computer parts posted:A thousand Palpatines would just backstab each other for a century. Well the Palpatine that ended up alive at the end would be a total bad rear end. But more honestly, we already know that Clones can be set up such that they are completely totally utterly obedient to whatever commands you might want them to be.
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Jan 9, 2016 06:00
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