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Valinon posted:1.) A - If we are going to be foolish enough to cut taxes for no appreciable reason, we may at least make sure it doesn't derail any major initiatives by spreading the losses out as evenly as possible. Regardless of this minor Indochinese tomfoolery, there is no need to offer up a display of defence reduction that the Soviets can play to their advantage. Treaty commitments and a need to keep options for future containment open mean McNamara needs a robust collection of resources. My vote.
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Jan 10, 2016 06:36
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Halloween Jack posted:I know a Kennedy who could've used one of those. But it's still an open-topped car 
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Jan 11, 2016 00:52
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1. C 2. That B&C combo sounds good. B takes priority if I can't co-vote. This thread is awesome.
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Jan 11, 2016 00:55
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Valinon posted:1.) A - If we are going to be foolish enough to cut taxes for no appreciable reason, we may at least make sure it doesn't derail any major initiatives by spreading the losses out as evenly as possible. Regardless of this minor Indochinese tomfoolery, there is no need to offer up a display of defence reduction that the Soviets can play to their advantage. Treaty commitments and a need to keep options for future containment open mean McNamara needs a robust collection of resources.
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Jan 11, 2016 00:57
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Thump! posted:But it's still an open-topped car This is why we need to send it to our Australian colleague. Did anyone get that reference?
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Jan 11, 2016 00:58
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Outrail posted:This is why we need to send it to our Australian colleague. Imagine an alternate history where Harold Holt doesn't drown and Gough never becomes PM.
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Jan 11, 2016 01:04
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Thump! posted:But it's still an open-topped car I believe you mean “but how does an amphibious car help you drown a woman and get away with it”? Outrail posted:This is why we need to send it to our Australian colleague. Well I knew Australia had a PM that disappeared on a swim, so I looked him (Harold Holt) up and the timeframe matches.
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Jan 11, 2016 01:07
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Thump! posted:But it's still an open-topped car that means he can enjoy the sea spray on his face on his way through the florida straits to throw those goddamn commies out of America's back yard his own drat self
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Jan 11, 2016 01:49
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Update WILL be coming tomorrow. No guarantee that Jumbo will do any schlonging however.
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Jan 11, 2016 06:15
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Jumpingmanjim posted:Imagine an alternate history where Harold Holt doesn't drown and Gough never becomes PM. Oh poo poo, I just figured it out. Holt never drowned. LBJ helped him fake his death, picked him up in the car and began a torrid love affair.
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Jan 11, 2016 06:23
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1) Who should bear the brunt of the budget cuts? A. Spread it as thinly as possible across all departments, shooting for a budget just barely under $100 billion. 2) How should you approach moving the civil rights bill out of the Rules Committee? B. Support a Congressional petition to discharge the bill from the Rules Committee. A lot of people pushed for C too, I'm going to half implement it in a bit and then give ya'll a chance to double down in a later vote December 8, 1963 The staid House of Representatives rarely supports as daring a move as a discharge petition. House leadership has already said they won’t do it. But the Republicans are worried about the civil rights issue backfiring on them. They enjoy using it to split the Democrats, but most members of the Party of Lincoln are loathe to be grouped among the segregationists. So get enough Democrats to support the bill, and you can shame the Republicans to do the same. You contact labor and civil rights leaders and explain the situation to them - they start calling their representatives. You order the party whips to began pressing every Democrat for a definite answer on their vote for the discharge petition. You trade away protection from the upcoming budget cuts for votes - earning you six from your home state of Texas. The next day Republican Conference Chairman Gerald Ford denounces the discharge petition as a tactic and the executive branch’s interference in legislative matters. “The Rules Committee should be allowed a reasonable time to hold hearings and act on the bill,” he tells the papers. But then the priests and ministers arrive. The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights had contacted a National Council of Churches convention in Philadelphia. With a clear target, a bill to pass, civil rights leaders had been energized. Clerics fill the Congressional halls and urge their representatives to vote for the bill. And as the prospective votes on a discharge petition climb, Republican leadership breaks. They tell Judge Smith that by neither signing the petition nor voting against him in the committee they are effectively supporting his hold on the civil rights bill. But they also give him the opportunity to prevent a public repudiation of his authority. Judge Smith announces a firm date for the hearings on the civil rights bill and a schedule for when they’ll be finished. With the discharge petition still floating in the legislature, a dozen votes from completion, you can hold him accountable to his words. December 20, 1963 You spend the remainder of the month working on the budget. Cabinet members and agency heads are in and out of your office, explaining what they can stand to cut and what has to be kept. The budget is very real to you: it determines how many unemployed men and women are going to be trained, how many hungry schoolchildren are going to be fed, how many poor people are going to be housed, how the entire population is going to be protected against a possible enemy attack. McNamara finds more than half a billion to cut in the Defense Department. Fowler and Rusk cooperate as well. You spend five minutes excoriating Orville Freeman, Secretary of Agriculture, because his department had increased personnel more than any other. He soon after reports that he thinks he can reduce his projected numbers of new employees. Postmaster General Gronouski has been resisting cuts entirely, but you’re able to promise him a later increase in exchange for some small reductions now. Harry Byrd starts moving amendments through his committee much faster - ending debate early and advancing the bill. By January you anticipate it will be on the Congress floor. December 23, 1963 With the holiday vacation approaching and your agenda seemingly moving through Congress unhindered, you prepare to leave the White House and head to Texas for a couple weeks. This is no vacation though. It’s an opportunity to show the press the LBJ ranch and let America truly meet their new President. The days of aristocratic Kennedy dinners were over. The chancellor of the Federal German Republic, Ludwig Erhard, will even be coming down for a few days. But there are a few final pressing matters you need to attend to. The first is the monkey on your back: Vietnam. McNamara says the situation has deteriorated rapidly in the past month, even more than was anticipated. The new junta is disorganized and widely seen as illegitimate. Ambassador Lodge claims there has been “a day-by-day increase in Viet Cong influence, military operations, and physical control of the countryside.” McNamara’s formal report says that within two to three months at the current rate of decline, the country will be neutralized at best but more likely Communist-controlled. He advises preparing for more forceful moves against both the Viet Cong and their North Vietnamese supporters. Additionally he supports moving American troops out of Saigon and into the embattled provinces such as the Mekong Delta. McCone is more confident about the situation and believes McNamara is being overly pessimistic, though he admits current troop levels are insufficient to achieve any real strategic objectives. George Ball has taken the lead on contacting an American journalist and historian with extensive knowledge about Southeast Asia, Bernard Fall, and tasked him with looking into the possibility of a negotiated settlement. Fall reports back that his efforts have been largely stonewalled by his contacts in North Vietnam. They purport that the government of South Vietnam is an unpopular military dictatorship propped up only by the force of US arms. To be fair, Fall seems to agree with their analysis. He gives the most dire report yet of the situation, saying that Viet Cong activities and support are widespread. Without a believable promise of elections or some sort of democratization, North Vietnam has no reason to come to the table or cease supporting the VIet Cong. Meanwhile, troops reductions have already been planned. A thousand soldiers are supposed to be removed from Vietnam at the end of the year. McNamara suggests cooking the books - do a standard troop cycle with a one month lag between replenishments so you can say a thousand men have come home. It has the ring of truth to it. 1) How should you modify your strategy in Vietnam? A. McNamara’s right. The North Vietnamese will negotiate once they’re afraid so prepare for limited military operations against them. Also commit to current US troop levels and have them move into more dangerous areas where they can be more effective. B. Let the thousand soldiers come home, but otherwise do not alter current strategy. American troops will stay in Saigon to advise and train. C. Ball and Fall are right. Bring the thousand soldiers home and begin preparations to pull out entirely. D. [ACTUALLY I THINK YOU’LL FIND THAT IF WE…] As always giving a little more creativity on the Vietnam bit. You knew that your act of mercy was going to come back and bite you. Director of the CIA McCone meets with you privately after the Vietnam briefing. He complains that the “Kennedy Commission” (as the press is calling it) tasked with investigating the former President’s assassination and headed by his brother Robert, is quickly becoming a problem. For the past three weeks Robert Kennedy has been holding closed but not secret sessions. He is working around the clock and seems to be chasing every possible lead or bit of information. And he is now requesting access to classified CIA records relating to activities in Cuba as well as information on CIA contacts with links to organized crime. McCone says that releasing the information to Kennedy and allowing it to enter the public record would damage both the CIA’s prestige and efficacy. It might even put current CIA operations and operatives at risk. However, you know that if you restrict access you’ll have a madder-than-hell Robert Kennedy banging down your door when you get back from Christmas vacation. 2) Should Robert Kennedy’s commission have access to classified CIA information? A. The only way to get to the truth of the President’s assassination is with all possible information. Order McCone to give Kennedy anything he asks for. B. Give Kennedy access to classified CIA information but restrict it from being entered into the public record. It can inform his investigation only. C. Kennedy is an rear end in a top hat. Support McCone and refuse to turn over classified information.
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Jan 14, 2016 08:05
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 Just kidding, 1: C. We need to get out before the shithouse goes up in flames. 2: B Only real option here.
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Jan 14, 2016 08:28
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1 . let's get freaky. Pull huge numbers of troops out of Vietnam. They can have their sweaty little country. Supply the South with as much hardware as they need. Secretly send in spies and diplomats to convince and/or bribe the upper layers of the NVA to defect, include enough food, cash and porn to pay their men as well. 2. Let him have access to CIA info, but let them censor it as needed. If Rob gets to be too much trouble we can leak some of the sensitive data and blame it on Rob, who it turns out was a commie traitor who had his own brother murdered.
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Jan 14, 2016 08:33
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1) C/Dish. Begin troop drawdown, but massively increase bombing campaign. Basically do Linebacker II now while removing ground troops. 2) B e: actually that's a terrible idea for 1D but I'm going to leave it there anyway
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Jan 14, 2016 12:08
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1. C, for the love of all that is holy 2. B
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Jan 14, 2016 13:03
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Outrail posted:1 . let's get freaky. Pull huge numbers of troops out of Vietnam. They can have their sweaty little country. Supply the South with as much hardware as they need. Secretly send in spies and diplomats to convince and/or bribe the upper layers of the NVA to defect, include enough food, cash and porn to pay their men as well. This is good plan. Pull out, but do everything possible covertly and economically to destabilise the north. Then obviously B is the only answer to 2. We can't stonewall Kennedy, he'd shame us publicly, but we can't put our assets at risk either.
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Jan 14, 2016 13:18
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1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. On the military front, maintain current troop levels until we receive a real commitment to engage with the United States and its southern neighbor in a negotiated settlement. Convince the South to focus on those parts of South Vietnam which it now controls and to end its so-far unsuccessful chase of Viet Cong all over the country. Use aid to improve the political and social condition of those people currently under Saigon's control. Provide military aid where relevant. (We may eventually consider reaching out to the Soviets about establishing a neutral state in Vietnam. Based on historic documents, they would probably be up for it and it, driving an additional wedge between them and China. I am not including it here because I am afraid of us doing too many things at once.) 2. B. I trust Kennedy, but not the press.
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Jan 14, 2016 13:31
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1. D. Call up the leaders of North Vietnam personally. We know that they had asked for American aid in the past against the French and used to live in the US. See if we can make them renounce outright communism if we support them toppling the southern Junta. 2. A. Let's show that JFK ordered some drat stupid operations. The public finding out will discredit the Kennedy mystique and improve our re-election chances Slaan has issued a correction as of 13:34 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 13:32
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Outrail posted:1 . let's get freaky. Pull huge numbers of troops out of Vietnam. They can have their sweaty little country. Supply the South with as much hardware as they need. Secretly send in spies and diplomats to convince and/or bribe the upper layers of the NVA to defect, include enough food, cash and porn to pay their men as well. 2. B
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Jan 14, 2016 13:38
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region.  Simply pulling the troops out makes it look like we're abandoning Vietnam and leaves us open to be labeled as soft on communism by our political opponents. Much better to focus on reaching a diplomatic settlement and avoid escalating the conflict. 2. C Foreman Domai has issued a correction as of 15:01 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 14:28
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. This! This! A thousand times this! You stated it perfectly. I would add a back-up layer, though. We can always withdraw and support the anti-communist forces that will surely arise give the nature of the Minh regime in the half of Vietnam it already controls. There is an elegance in paying the Viet Cong and their puppet masters back in their own coin of choice. 2. C - I cannot shout from the rooftops loudly and frequently enough to emphasize why this is our only feasible option. The 'Kennedy Commission' was a mistake from day one. RK is already showing he is going to be a problem. I do not trust him to withhold information from the press if we give it to him. Even if he did withhold it from the press, he will slant it in a way that benefits his own conclusions and a potential primary challenge. The election only draws closer each day. If Kennedy cannot be sated, we can offer documentation to be analyzed by FBI specialists who are bound by strict classification systems and potential charges if they turn to whistle blowing. It's the Cold War, for God's sake, we can find any number of reasons why these materials need to remain classified in the interest of national and international security. If Kennedy is mad, explain to him how likely it is that Cuba actually was involved in the assassination (about as likely as you amphibious automobile sinking) and demand he account for his interest in CIA affairs. He can justify his reasoning for wanting access, and we can back down behind closed doors if it turns out he can hang together a reason that doesn't smell of domestic grandstanding.
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Jan 14, 2016 14:39
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. I agree with this exactly.
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Jan 14, 2016 15:08
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. and 2. B. We're not going to hide anything from Kennedy, but we don't need our CIA fuckups out in front of the public. If anybody complains, just remind them it's a matter of national security and not endangering our men in the field.
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Jan 14, 2016 15:32
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. Agreed with both of these. As sexy as a full pullout might seem it would basically be seen as selling Vietnam (and to these morons in congress; the World) to the Soviets. We definitely shouldn't send our troops into the meat grinder nor escalate further without significant provocation.
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Jan 14, 2016 16:26
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. Another vote for this option. No sense in pretending Communism isn't a major threat, or that we don't need to protect classified information (without doing anything to impede the Commission's work, of course).
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Jan 14, 2016 17:51
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. 2. C The general public isn't going to believe that the CIA and the mob had anything to do with the assassination, and if RFK alleges they did, he's going to look like a lunatic.
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Jan 14, 2016 18:31
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Have we heard anything from that guy we sent to Vietnam a while ago?
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Jan 14, 2016 18:37
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. I really like how knowledgeable some of you guys are about the Vietnam conflict and the options you give. It really makes it feel like we're always got a bunch of alternative options and that we're not on any sort of straight, set path. For the second: Takanago posted:and 2. B. We're not going to hide anything from Kennedy, but we don't need our CIA fuckups out in front of the public. If anybody complains, just remind them it's a matter of national security and not endangering our men in the field. fade5 has issued a correction as of 19:09 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 19:04
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1. Mike Mansfield Option 2. B. I don’t have to trust Kennedy. It’s the only sane choice whether he’s trustworthy or not. If he behaves himself, great. If he doesn’t, that’s on him. Certainly, we’ll catch some flak for allowing RFK’s Justice Department to investigate it in the first place, but RFK will catch the majority We can’t take back the decision to hand RFK the investigation. If he’s going to have a meltdown, it’s better that it happens after we’ve cooperated with the investigation. We can have him removed now and avoid an even worse scandal later. If we don’t give him access to the Cuba information, and RFK makes a fuss and attracts sympathisers, then what? Stonewall him and put all the heat on us? Cave and give RFK what he wants privately and make it look like he was right all along? Air the Cuba documents publicly and have all the downsides of both options C and A? No matter how much we share, it’s going to hurt, and we’ll also face accusations of not sharing the whole truth. We’d be catching more of the flak than RFK, and that’s the opposite of what we want to happen. Platystemon has issued a correction as of 19:27 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 19:21
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For everyone who doesn't trust the press, remember that this is pre Pentagon Papers. The NYT and WaPo gave Kennedy 6 whole days to contemplate the Cuban Missile Crisis before breaking the story. Gonna go 1.Mansfield Plan (D) 2. B
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Jan 14, 2016 19:21
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C and B. With respect to the Vietnam issue, even though LBJ is a Texan and won't let no god drat yellows push him around, he can push the Great Society further without getting distracted in Vietnam.
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Jan 14, 2016 19:59
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I can't wait for RFK to implicate Fidel Castro in the Kennedy Assassination, forcing us to invade Cuba and instigate global thermonuclear war
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Jan 14, 2016 20:16
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A, send a message that we won't be pushed around by a bunch of communists. This will absolutely backfire but will do well with the voters for now  C, we don't want to seem like we're hiding something but on the other hand a bunch of crazy CIA ops leaking will distract from the issues.
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Jan 14, 2016 20:58
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QuoProQuid posted:I can't wait for RFK to implicate Fidel Castro in the Kennedy Assassination, forcing us to invade Cuba and instigate global thermonuclear war According to McNamara, Castro told him that some of the nukes were already in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis and that Castro had told the Soviets to nuke Washington. So, this would be an awesome ending.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:16
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QuoProQuid posted:1. Mike Mansfield Option: Accelerate current diplomatic offensive but make it clear to the Hanoi Government, through our covert channels, that any reduction of force on the American side will need to be met with a similar de-escalation by the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Enlist France to support Ball's drive for a settlement. The United States may be willing to accept a resolution that reduces its influence provided that it also inhibits Chinese political domination over the region. I'm wary that the Southern junta may not be willing to undertake the kind of reforms it would need to actually start gathering popular support; that's sort of the whole deal with a military junta. But by the same token, I really, really don't want us to get bogged down in some jungle-ridden shithole in Indochina. Keeping current troop levels and making clear the conditions for troop reductions seems wise. Hell, if it works (and it seems a bit crazy, but since we're sticking with the whole idealistic-diplomacy bit we may as well go whole hog) we might even be able to approach the Soviets and use the same tactics with regard to nuclear stockpiles. Who knows. The point is to look strong on Communism to the voters, and keeping troop levels accomplishes that, provided it's accompanied by the right kind of rhetoric. As for the documents, B is the right option. We cannot risk letting classified info out to the public, but we also can't look suspicious or weak by stonewalling him. Make clear the line he's treading. He still hates us, there's no doubt, but we have common ground: we want to see Kennedy's killers brought to justice.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:24
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Oh, the junta is irrevocably hosed. The South Vietnamese government lost its last vestiges of legitimacy when Diem launched his coup against Bao Dai, and our elimination of Diem only alienated Diem's narrow base of supporters. The only thing holding the country together is American aid and vague anti- communist rhetoric. Short of a sudden and unrelenting mobilization on par with WWII, there's no way to save the South. Luckily, Minh and company have been condemned by literally anyone with any authority in the region, up to and including the Catholic Church, and have no alternative patron to turn to. So long as we can offer a Golden Parachute to the junta when it is time to abandon ship, there's not much that they can do to halt progress. The idea is not to save the burning house, but to get out before it collapses on top of us. QuoProQuid has issued a correction as of 22:19 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 22:09
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Letting South Vietnam fall to the communists is a perfect way to get Goldwater elected.
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Jan 14, 2016 23:27
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1. It's time to show solidarity with our Viet Cong comrades in the North. Supply Ho Chi Minh's brave fighters with advanced military hardware, and drive the imperialist dogs out of Indochina. 2. Make all CIA documents public and give a televised address apologizing for the monkeyshines of America's secret police. If we throw ourselves on the mercy of the people, it's possible we won't be tried at Nuremberg II for our multiple, grievous crimes against humanity.
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Jan 15, 2016 01:06
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Homework Explainer posted:1. It's time to show solidarity with our Viet Cong comrades in the North. Supply Ho Chi Minh's brave fighters with advanced military hardware, and drive the imperialist dogs out of Indochina. We took this job so that we wouldn't need to be culpable to those peons. Let's do a bang-up job on Civil Rights; avoid the Vietnam War; and continue holding the establishment firmly untouchable until we invent mind-reading robots sometime in the 2050's.
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Jan 15, 2016 01:26
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The X-man cometh posted:Letting South Vietnam fall to the communists is a perfect way to get Goldwater elected. Works for me.
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Jan 15, 2016 01:35
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