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To be honest, though, Qassam rockets are bad and should probably be discouraged because crappy home-made artillery is dangerous as gently caress... to the people launching it and those in their general vicinity. I'd be surprised if the answer is 'yes', but do we have any data on how many Palestinians have been killed by Gazan rockets?
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Jan 9, 2016 12:21
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team overhead smash posted:How many Palestinians civilians is Israel allowed to kill before it becomes a real war crime instead of just a "technical" war crime like Palestinian rockets? Which doesn't change the fact that he is asking people to condemn them as war crimes implicitly to excuse the actions of the IDF which kills hundreds of civilians because either they too are incapable of distinguishing between civilian and military targets or they simply don't care about collateral damage, which sounds pretty war crimey to me. XMNN fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 12:25
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Baloogan posted:If this is true, and the moderators condone and encourage these posters while probating and banning dissenting voices means the moderators of this forum are anti-semitic. I too am mad about how I imagine the mods are doing their jobs.
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Jan 9, 2016 15:39
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XMNN posted:I'd go with zero for either side, a missile that might hit a civilian population but lands in a field or gets blown out of the sky is a war crime but it's not really on the same level as one that kills or injures someone or dozens or hundreds of people. Yes, what he's doing is wrong and is part of a consistent tactic on his part to diminish the suffering of the Palestinian people. However dismissing Israelis killed by Palestinian rockets as not being the victims of real war crimes as opposed to 'technical' war crimes due to their being far more Palestinian deaths is also wrong and not the way to go about correcting him, which is what you were implicitly doing in your last post.
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Jan 9, 2016 18:13
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Uh, what? XMNN posted:I'd go with zero for either side, a missile that might hit a civilian population but lands in a field or gets blown out of the sky is a war crime but it's not really on the same level as one that kills or injures someone or dozens or hundreds of people. Which is all distracting from the important point that while The Insect man is very keen that people acknowledge the war crimes of Hamas I have never seen him acknowledge that the IDF commits war crimes.
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Jan 9, 2016 18:58
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XMNN posted:Uh, what? As I mentioned I was referring to your previous post, where you said "like the rocket attacks from Palestine are war crimes (mostly in a technical sense because they don't actually end up causing damage to either the military or civilian targets they are incapable of discriminating between) but I'm not sure how that makes bombing Palestinian towns and killing hundreds of civilians OK?" Referring to something as technical in that context is to dismiss it out of hand, to say that perhaps it counts but not in a way that really matters or should be concerned with. Palestinian rocket attacks have caused hundreds of casualties (rather than your claim in your original post that "they don't actually end up causing damage to either the military or civilian targets"), predominantly mostly to civilians, and while more Palestinians have died from Israeli shelling that doesn't stop the rocket attacks from being very meaningful and very real war crimes. Seeing as your point you were making in that post is that TIC was implicitly downplaying the suffering of Palestinians, which he was doing, it nevertheless seems hypocritical when you do exactly the same thing in your own post.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:03
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team overhead smash posted:Israel chooses to do them, but I think we can still recognise that rockets are a cause of a certain type of attack with that type of attack being the big ones involving mass bombing and artillery shelling that causes hundreds or thousands of civilian casualties sometimes supported by a large ground invasion. Every big attack by Israel on Palestine large enough to warrant a name like Protective Edge, Cast lead, Pillar of Defense, Autumn Clouds, Summer Rain, Days of Penitence, etc has been in response to Palestinian rockets- both chronologically and as the stated explanation for Israel's actions.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:11
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team overhead smash posted:As I mentioned I was referring to your previous post, where you said "like the rocket attacks from Palestine are war crimes (mostly in a technical sense because they don't actually end up causing damage to either the military or civilian targets they are incapable of discriminating between) but I'm not sure how that makes bombing Palestinian towns and killing hundreds of civilians OK?" e: like you do understand what the word "mostly" means, right? XMNN fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 01:17
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Cat Mattress posted:It isn't possible to defend Israel's actions; so the pro-Israel posters are merely reduced to attack pro-Palestinian posters, usually with the cudgel of antisemitism. If one wishes one's pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli stance to be marred by discussions about anti-semitism then it befits oneself to make some attempt to avoid anti-semitic canards. I want to be understanding, I acknowledge the possibility that depicting Israeli Jews as cruel, bloodthirsty, cowardly, deceitful murderers is something that gives you some sort of emotional thrill. But are you saying you can't make a case against Israeli policy without resorting to that sort of stereotyping?
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Jan 10, 2016 02:50
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hi insect boy do you acknowledge that the idf has committed war crimes eg during their recent mowing the grass campaigns yes or no
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Jan 10, 2016 02:59
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XMNN posted:hi insect boy do you acknowledge that the idf has committed war crimes eg during their recent mowing the grass campaigns yes or no
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Jan 10, 2016 07:15
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XMNN posted:hi insect boy do you acknowledge that the idf has committed war crimes eg during their recent mowing the grass campaigns yes or no He's yet to answer a direct question yet, dont see why he'd start now when he has so many strawman questions to answer instead.
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Jan 10, 2016 07:20
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XMNN posted:What? Read my posts, a rocket attack that causes zero casualties, as most of them do, is a war crime, but it is not an atrocity, nor is it as serious as a rocket attack or a bombing that does kill or injure people. I've read your post and I'll take your word that's what you were trying to say, but you really weren't clear in it and perhaps don't realise that because you know what you intended to say. As you don't at any point specify, t's just as easily read that the 'mostly' refers to all individual rocket attacks (E.g. "Each rocket attack is mostly just a technical violation that doesn't really matter") as it does to to the overall split of 'technical' vs 'real' (E.g. Most rocket attacks are just technical violations, although there are some real ones). Either way you're still trying to diminish war crimes, although less so then I thought on my first reading.
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Jan 10, 2016 09:25
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XMNN posted:hi insect boy do you acknowledge that the idf has committed war crimes eg during their recent mowing the grass campaigns yes or no Also are Palestinians indigenous to Palestine, and if not, what is the region to which they're indigenous?
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Jan 10, 2016 09:33
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XMNN posted:hi insect boy do you acknowledge that the idf has committed war crimes eg during their recent mowing the grass campaigns yes or no Well of course it did. Why do you people think that's so difficult an admission? Is it because even a grudging, passive aggressive demi-admission(is a 'technical' war crime like 'technical' virginity?) that Hamas engages in war crimes in their attacks against Israelis is so very difficult for you for some reason?
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Jan 10, 2016 10:50
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XMNN posted:I'd go with zero for either side, a missile that might hit a civilian population but lands in a field or gets blown out of the sky is a war crime but it's not really on the same level as one that kills or injures someone or dozens or hundreds of people. It's not that they're incapable of distinguishing civilian and military targets, they're explicitly told to disregard any distinction and treat everyone as a military target. http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/protective-edge Actual testimony from IDF on how Protective Edge was carried out. Obviously these are the worst types of anti-Semites that could possibly be.
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Jan 10, 2016 10:53
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Ddraig posted:It's not that they're incapable of distinguishing civilian and military targets, they're explicitly told to disregard any distinction and treat everyone as a military target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25bg9CI2ZJ8
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Jan 10, 2016 11:13
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The Insect Court posted:Well of course it did. All war is crime hth
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Jan 10, 2016 11:19
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The Insect Court posted:Well of course it did. Anyone who denies Palestinian war crimes is an anti-Semite. Anyone who admits that Palestinians commit war crimes is a well-disciplined anti-Semite.
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Jan 10, 2016 11:33
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I agree that a stabbing is a terrible thing that is completely unconscionable. It's also fairly common.We have about 130,000 stabbings per year in the UK, yet none of them are met with the full force of our military might by driving tanks through the ghetto, much as certain sections of society would love to see that. Why is it that Israel feels that a criminal act should be met with extra-judicial military force?
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Jan 10, 2016 12:33
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eSports Chaebol posted:Anyone who denies Palestinian war crimes is an anti-Semite. Anyone who admits that Palestinians commit war crimes is a well-disciplined anti-Semite. Wait, how can I not be an anti-semite then?
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Jan 10, 2016 19:17
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drilldo squirt posted:Wait, how can I not be an anti-semite then? You have to support Likud. Even though less Jews vote for Netanyahu than vote for Obama.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:44
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Ddraig posted:I agree that a stabbing is a terrible thing that is completely unconscionable. It's also fairly common.We have about 130,000 stabbings per year in the UK, yet none of them are met with the full force of our military might by driving tanks through the ghetto, much as certain sections of society would love to see that. Because they know they can get away with killing a few uppity arabs here and there without any groups with real power censuring them.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:18
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Ddraig posted:I agree that a stabbing is a terrible thing that is completely unconscionable. It's also fairly common.We have about 130,000 stabbings per year in the UK, yet none of them are met with the full force of our military might by driving tanks through the ghetto, much as certain sections of society would love to see that. Who is going to stop them?
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Jan 10, 2016 21:30
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You haven't really contributed anything to this discussion other than reminding people, far more succinctly but less ably than some other posters, that yes in fact not everything the palestinians do w/r/t confronting israeli oppression is blameless.
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Jan 10, 2016 22:00
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Oh look, someone set the offices of B'Tselem in Jerusalem on fire.
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Jan 11, 2016 01:49
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Ultramega posted:You haven't really contributed anything to this discussion other than reminding people, far more succinctly but less ably than some other posters, that yes in fact not everything the palestinians do w/r/t confronting israeli oppression is blameless. It's Baloogan. His whole schtick is minimal-effort whataboutism and whining about mod/D&D hivemind oppression rather than posting usefully and productively. See also, that giant rapsheet.
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Jan 11, 2016 04:49
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Ddraig posted:I agree that a stabbing is a terrible thing that is completely unconscionable. It's also fairly common.We have about 130,000 stabbings per year in the UK, yet none of them are met with the full force of our military might by driving tanks through the ghetto, much as certain sections of society would love to see that. Same reason the British Empire was meeting civil unrest with military force a hundred years ago - fear. They're not confident in their ability to suppress a serious uprising among the natives, so any hint of mass unrest without a clear leader is met with overwhelming force in hopes of crushing it before it can escalate. The stabbings in East Jerusalem are particularly alarming because they're not tied to any organization, so there's no leader that Israel can bomb or bully into submission - they're spontaneous solo attacks not tied to any larger group that can be monitored or infiltrated, making them genuinely unpredictable and nigh-unstoppable. An open revolt in East Jerusalem would be an incredible tragedy leading to a lot of dead civilians on both sides and devastating reprisals from all major organizations.
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Jan 11, 2016 05:33
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team overhead smash posted:Israel chooses to do them, but I think we can still recognise that rockets are a cause of a certain type of attack with that type of attack being the big ones involving mass bombing and artillery shelling that causes hundreds or thousands of civilian casualties sometimes supported by a large ground invasion. Every big attack by Israel on Palestine large enough to warrant a name like Protective Edge, Cast lead, Pillar of Defense, Autumn Clouds, Summer Rain, Days of Penitence, etc has been in response to Palestinian rockets- both chronologically and as the stated explanation for Israel's actions. And that is 100% the fault of Israel. While I would advise Palestinians to not do rocket attacks, I would advise them to do this in the same way I would advise someone to not try and fight a mugger. It's a bad idea to provoke a violent person, but you don't bear any moral responsibility when they retaliate against you. (edit: I want to be clear here that the Palestinians who shoot rockets *do* bear a moral responsibility for any people who are directly hurt by those rockets; they just don't bear any moral responsibility for Israeli retaliation.) Ultimately, Israel bears 100% of the responsibility for its actions, and discussing Palestinian violence in the way you seem to be ("if only they didn't do ___ they wouldn't have it so bad") seems to wrongly shift the responsibility/blame for Israeli violence towards Palestinians. edit (I didn't notice at first that you had also replied to the rest of my post): That being said, I do understand why you'd want to bring up the rocket attacks, since there *do* seem to be at least several posters who are openly saying they don't have a problem with them. It seems pretty clear to me that, regardless of Israel's actions, it's still wrong to commit an indiscriminate attack often targeting civilians, regardless of how ineffective that attack may be. But it also seems like it should be an extremely low priority given the comparatively negligible harm the rockets cause + the circumstances leading to the rockets. It's difficult to really assign much moral blame when people in a situation like those in Gaza lash out, since it's a natural thing that people tend to do under such circumstances. So it's kind of pointless to spend effort condemning the actions of a group of people who are under significant stress. The Insect Court posted:So it seems obvious there's a sizeable contingent of anti-Israeli posters who are willing to condone rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. It should also be obvious that there's a debate about this and it's hardly some consensus on the part of "anti-Israel" posters (not to mention the fact that people often sympathize with morally wrong actions if they're committed by an oppressed underdog). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 06:28
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Ytlaya posted:It should also be obvious that there's a debate about this and it's hardly some consensus on the part of "anti-Israel" posters (not to mention the fact that people often sympathize with morally wrong actions if they're committed by an oppressed underdog). You're perfectly right, there is a range of opinion albeit a narrowly limited one. That said, splitting down the middle on the 'is it ok to murder innocent people' question does not speak highly of the ability of the anti-Zionist posters to empathize with with both Palestinians and Israelis. The response to that question should not be another question asking what tribe the victims/perpetrators belong to. team overhead smash posted:With suicide bombs it is possible to discriminate and you can do attacks which inflict entirely or largely military casualties/damage. Take the Kerem Shalom suicide bombing in 2008. A suicide bomber detonated their bomb at an Israeli outpost and I believe all the casualties were military. It was a legitimate attack. Now it's possible to make an attack with a suicide bomber that is a war crime, detonating it in a crowded market, but that's down to the choice of the bomber you could make the same argument for a gun or a knife. You can choose to shoot/stab an IDF soldier or you can choose to shoot/stab a civilian. The use of suicide bombs, guns, knives and such aren't inherently a war crime like rockets are, they can be used legitimately or as part of a war crime depending on the choice of the user. Can I take this to mean that suicide bombings, stabbings, and other various terrorist attacks directed against civilian targets are not at all morally acceptable? Would anyone like to object to that contention?
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Jan 11, 2016 08:39
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The Insect Court posted:'is it ok to murder innocent people' Who do you think murders more innocent people every year, the IDF or Palestinian militants?
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Jan 11, 2016 08:48
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According to the fire fighting services it was likely an electrical fire and not arson.
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Jan 11, 2016 11:24
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my inner sea is so full of dissolved salts that he floats in me like a partially beached whale
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Jan 11, 2016 11:33
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emanresu tnuocca posted:According to the fire fighting services it was likely an electrical fire and not arson. Well, that's good to hear. At the time that I posted the article, it looked pretty suspicious.
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Jan 11, 2016 14:16
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The Insect Court posted:That said, splitting down the middle on the 'is it ok to murder innocent people' question does not speak highly of the ability of the anti-Zionist posters to empathize with with both Palestinians and Israelis. The response to that question should not be another question asking what tribe the victims/perpetrators belong to. Do you perceive any middleground between "zionist" and "anti-zionist"? Why should any gentile be Zionist?
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Jan 11, 2016 14:27
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The Insect Court posted:That said, splitting down the middle on the 'is it ok to murder innocent people' question does not speak highly of the ability of the anti-Zionist posters to empathize with with both Palestinians and Israelis. The response to that question should not be another question asking what tribe the victims/perpetrators belong to. I absolutely agree. Killing unarmed civilians ("innocent people" isn't the right term to use since it just leads to people on both sides saying that X is somehow the fault of unarmed noncombatant civilians and therefore they're not really innocent) is bad regardless of who does it, how they do it, or why they do it. I understand why Palestinian militants sometimes target civilians, just as I understand why Israeli militants and security forces both sometimes target civilians, but from a moral point of view, both are absolutely unacceptable. So is discrimination and oppression. Killing civilians is morally unacceptable, and I'll happily and unconditionally condemn one side for doing it...when the other side stops doing it. As long as both sides are doing it, I see little value in arguing about which side's civilian-murders are more morally abhorrent, as if it matters when virtually every group involved is horrible, and in fact they all pretty much fuel each other's atrocities in a nightmarish feedback loop of slaughter and brutality. It's only going to get worse, too, if things are allowed to continue - Israel is slowly but surely downsliding into fascism, the weakened Hamas is struggling to maintain dominance against rivals like Islamic Jihad and now ISIS, and the long-dominant peaceful wing of the PA is losing against both internal and external militancy as the stench of Oslo's rotting corpse becomes more and more difficult to ignore.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:37
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Does any one around here know whether the principal of non-refoulement or any variation thereof apply to individuals who personally extradite or provide information to foreign organizations that might lead to the torture or the application of excessive punishment of a person? There's a rather interesting case now in Israel where a member of the Ta'ayush activist cell has been caught on hidden camera boasting of providing the names of palestinians who sold land to Israelis to the PA; selling land to Israelis is allegedly considered high-treason within the PA penal code and is punishable by death, more disturbingly in his hidden camera confession he claims that the individuals whose names he provided to the PA were tortured and extrajudicially executed. So there's this rather big hooplah where all the right wingers are accusing human rights activists of hypocrisy and the such but I can't find any specific legislation that pertains to refoulement by an individual rather than a signatory state. A rather morally murky case by any metric as the PA is the de-jure sovereign in the west bank, I wonder if anyone knows of similar cases.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:32
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The Insect Court posted:That said, splitting down the middle on the 'is it ok to murder innocent people' question does not speak highly of the ability of the anti-Zionist posters to empathize with with both Palestinians and Israelis. The response to that question should not be another question asking what tribe the victims/perpetrators belong to. ...the exact same thing could be said about pro-Israel people? Except I wouldn't be surprised if more pro-Israeli people condone violent against Palestinians than vice versa (it seems downright rare to find a pro-Israel person who is actually willing to acknowledge/condemn Israeli war crimes). Main Paineframe posted:I absolutely agree. Killing unarmed civilians ("innocent people" isn't the right term to use since it just leads to people on both sides saying that X is somehow the fault of unarmed noncombatant civilians and therefore they're not really innocent) is bad regardless of who does it, how they do it, or why they do it. I understand why Palestinian militants sometimes target civilians, just as I understand why Israeli militants and security forces both sometimes target civilians, but from a moral point of view, both are absolutely unacceptable. While you're correct about such actions being 100% morally wrong and unacceptable, I do not think they're equally wrong. Even if it is wrong, I find it very easy to understand why a Palestinian whose relative or friend was killed/injured by Israel (which is probably a very significant portion of Palestinians, particularly in Gaza) would hate all Israelis. It doesn't make it right for them to hate Israeli civilians, but I can understand it, especially since they don't exactly have access to a lot of the information and education necessary to understand that Israelis/Jews aren't inherently evil. Even if they wanted to be exposed to a variety of non-IDF Israelis or different cultures, they couldn't do so. Israelis, on the other hand, do not have these excuses. While Palestinian violence against Israelis obviously exists, a majority of Israels do not actually personally know anyone harmed by Palestinian violence. They also live in a far more cosmopolitan society where they have plenty of opportunities to learn of other cultures and personally meet people of Arab descent. So when Israelis are racist towards Palestinians/Arabs, it's far more similar to the sort of racism Americans feel towards people of Middle Eastern descent as a result of 9/11 than it is the racism and hatred felt by Palestinians. So while hatred is always bad regardless of who is doing the hating, the circumstances are still very important. It's like the difference between white on black racism and black and white racism. Both are wrong, but one is obviously far more inexcusable than the other (since it is easy to understand why an oppressed population would feel anger towards the dominant ethnicity of its oppressor).
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Jan 11, 2016 19:13
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Does any one around here know whether the principal of non-refoulement or any variation thereof apply to individuals who personally extradite or provide information to foreign organizations that might lead to the torture or the application of excessive punishment of a person? He's been arrested for suspected "conspiracy to commit a crime", so while it's certainly a dick move, it doesn't look like there was any obvious law that seemed to apply specifically to this. It'll be interesting to see what the prosecutors come up with. It'll also be interesting to see the context of his claims and why he made them, since although execution is a possible punishment for selling land to Israelis, Palestinian courts have generally declined to use that punishment - typically, sale of land to Israelis is punished by a couple years in jail, and I haven't found any indication that any Palestinian has ever been sentenced to death by the PA for selling land. In fact, the death penalty hasn't been used in the West Bank for a decade. So his claim that the people he's reporting get executed by the PA is just plain not true. Why was he saying things that aren't true? That's a good question. Maybe he's just bullshitting, or maybe the camera operator said some things that don't show up in the final video - Israel isn't the first country in the world to have a far-right organization send out hidden-camera operators to try to bait members of left-wing organizations into saying something shady. Ytlaya posted:While you're correct about such actions being 100% morally wrong and unacceptable, I do not think they're equally wrong. They're both wrong, so who cares which one is more wrong? The minute you start talking about which murder of civilians is more "excusable", you're not making a moral argument anymore, you're just making excuses for amoral conduct that you've decided is justified for non-moral reasons.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:59
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Main Paineframe posted:So his claim that the people he's reporting get executed by the PA is just plain not true. Why was he saying things that aren't true? That's a good question. Well as I said, he didn't claim they were executed, he claims that they were killed and later on seems to confirm the infiltrator's statement that the land seller would be tortured. So yeah while executions haven't officially taken place in PA controlled territory since 2005, there are somewhat suspicious cases such as the following: http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=504634 quote:Osama Akel Hassan Mansour, 49, was detained by security forces on June 19 as part of an investigation against corruption, a security statement said. So generally, I am not quite so certain that Ezra Nawi was merely boasting in order to impress the infiltrator.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:07
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