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Lassitude posted:I'd actually be interested in learning more about what caused Islam to go from a religion which, for a time, represented the peak of scholarship in the world, to what it is now. This is more  than can fit in one post to give a satisfying answer, but this regression is driven by sectarianism and the failure of secularism in the middle east. Probably a bit offtopic i always wanted to bring this up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Abduh I only mention this cause this guy was a religious scholar and at least recognised in the middle east, i first heard about this when i was still in school back in 90's and its incredible cause dude advocated something similar to french laicite for governance, and debate through reason and logic to progress religion.
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Jan 10, 2016 08:08
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Jastiger posted:Exactly about Jesus. It sounds pretty made up to me. Why would Jesus be literate? And that's the Old Testament, not the Quran. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc1MMw6zgro Easier than explaining the verses myself. Is that explanation a solid one? Who knows. Pretty much all of the Quran is written in poetic verse and often uses metaphor to explain what it's talking about. It's why my whole argument about Adam and Eve still has yet to be refuted by any Imam, because even that could be a metaphor, by the Quran's own logic, which is why the vast majority of Muslim scholars believe in evolution and don't think the Earth is only 7000 years old.
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Jan 10, 2016 09:22
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Fuzz posted:the vast majority of Muslim scholars believe in evolution and don't think the Earth is only 7000 years old. [citation required]
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Jan 10, 2016 11:01
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You open up with dismissing the old testament, then say that the old testament isn't disputed by some scholars. Also remember religious scholars are less critical analysis of faiths and more an exercise in apologetics. I'm more interested in a response to that question. If the old folks thought the earth was flat. But then required you to face Mecca....how do you know the shortest way to Mecca if you're on the other side of the planet? In space? Anywhere outside of 500 miles of Mecca?
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Jan 10, 2016 16:35
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Jastiger posted:You open up with dismissing the old testament, then say that the old testament isn't disputed by some scholars. Also remember religious scholars are less critical analysis of faiths and more an exercise in apologetics. Again distance doesnt matter, just the direction.
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Jan 10, 2016 16:55
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Jastiger posted:You open up with dismissing the old testament, then say that the old testament isn't disputed by some scholars. I think you may be confused about what the Old Testament is... the Quran is most definitely not the Old Testament, nor is the Old Testament (as defined in the West) actually part of the Quran like it is with the Bible. Many of the same stories, parables, etc are shared between the two, but they're presented in a very different way and in many cases the content is altered, like the creation of woman or the nature of the devil myths. And I should have clarified and said most Muslim academics in the US, and the evidence is pretty anecdotal on my part but I've had the discussion with a lot of Muslim scholars based out of the Northeast, Midwest, and West Coast. I'd be surprised if opinions differed in the South or Southwest. Edit: Fixed for phone Fuzz fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 17:31
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Jastiger posted:I'm more interested in a response to that question. If the old folks thought the earth was flat. But then required you to face Mecca....how do you know the shortest way to Mecca if you're on the other side of the planet? In space? Anywhere outside of 500 miles of Mecca? So in this regard, I assume there's a possibly fairly nifty pragmatic answer.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:30
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The pragmatic answer is that it's the spirit of the prayer that matters. You can pay in a moving vehicle, for example... It's presumed your vehicle won't always be facing the correct direction, but it's nice to actually face the right way. If you're stranded on a deserted island and it's super cloudy and you have no idea of what direction is what, similarly, you would just pick a direction and pray. Praying in the wrong direction is still better than not praying at all, and not knowing which direction to face is not an excuse to not pray. It's pretty straightforward.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:58
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That's seems conflicting to me. I mean it IS pragmatic that "do the best you can' is the way to go. But in what way is that the expected acceptable way? Why have rules that can be kind of "meh" about being followed? What evidence is there that "do the best you can" is acceptable, other than pragmatic retrofitting? Are there passages about the sick being exempt or being so far north that there is no sun? We're muslims back then aware that such places exist?
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Jan 10, 2016 21:19
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Jastiger posted:That's seems conflicting to me. I mean it IS pragmatic that "do the best you can' is the way to go. But in what way is that the expected acceptable way? Why have rules that can be kind of "meh" about being followed? What evidence is there that "do the best you can" is acceptable, other than pragmatic retrofitting? I'm a hardcore materialist and I don't find this that hard to accept. Okay, we're used from Christianity that God doesn't like compromises and the law is generally set up in a way that makes it inherently impossible to follow fully. Born in sin and all that. But Islam simply isn't like that.
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Jan 10, 2016 22:31
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Fuzz posted:
So most liberal Muslims believe homosexuality is sinful and homosexuals should avoid having sex? That sounds like a fairly conservative position, but I guess when it's contrasted against, "homosexuals should be put to death" it seems more moderate...
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Jan 11, 2016 15:43
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Cingulate posted:Regardless of the specifics, I'd argue you'll find that this perspective of God as a generally reasonable person with a pragmatic perspective on the laws is largely consensus in Islam. That makes sense, that such a god could exist. I just don't see the reasoning behind it in the Quran and in Islam which has a lot of rules and regulations. But its certainly one perspective.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:05
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ashgromnies posted:So most liberal Muslims believe homosexuality is sinful and homosexuals should avoid having sex? I dunno, I don't agree with Amon Khonsu's stance, and in the grand scheme of things maybe God won't care. It's not all or nothing in Islam.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:09
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Jastiger posted:That makes sense, that such a god could exist. I just don't see the reasoning behind it in the Quran and in Islam which has a lot of rules and regulations. But its certainly one perspective. For example, I've spoken to muslims about segregated prayers. To you and me, it's sounds like draconic barbarism right? The answer I got won't satisfy your liberal heart, but it's still in the above style: it's because the way men are, looking at rising female buttocks in front of them will reliably distract them and induce uncouth thoughts. This is not helpful in prayer. So we put the women at the back. This doesn't mean God likes women less or whatever, it simply reflects the nature of man. And of course, this is not a liberal answer, but the point is, it's an entirely pragmatic conclusion given a bunch of assumptions. And this is IME Islam's natural style.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:49
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That is probably true though heh
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Jan 11, 2016 17:52
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We are also encouraged to dress simply during prayers (the traditional white robes a popular choice) to prevent others from being distracted from the funny joke on your t-shirt or the offensive graphic on the Cradle of Filth shirt you're wearing (I did this once). Also there's a thing about being presentable because you're basically having personal time with God.Jastiger posted:That makes sense, that such a god could exist. I just don't see the reasoning behind it in the Quran and in Islam which has a lot of rules and regulations. But its certainly one perspective. There are definitely a lot of rules and regulations in Islam, but there also a lot of very sensible exemptions that can apply to everyday life and everyday problems. The rationale is that God is understanding and doesn't want to cause undue harm or ridiculous problems (sexual orientation and gender identity issues aside), to His creations, people He loves and protects. Zakmonster fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 18:55
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Cingulate posted:That's IME the self view of Muslims, and it's pretty clearly the intent of the text I think, and it's generally the style of response you'll get to that kind of answer. But what about women watching boy butts?  Maybe the assumption is that women are inherently more pious and sensible, and boys are dumb and need to be nannied.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:12
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GreyjoyBastard posted:But what about women watching boy butts? If that were the assumption, Muslim women probably wouldn't be prohibited from marrying non-Muslims, unlike Muslim men.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:25
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Lassitude posted:If that were the assumption, Muslim women probably wouldn't be prohibited from marrying non-Muslims, unlike Muslim men. No, that stems from the predominant setup of the region, which was that the children would be the same religion as the father, regardless of what mom is.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:32
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Fuzz posted:No, that stems from the predominant setup of the region, which was that the children would be the same religion as the father, regardless of what mom is. Much in contrast to Judaism, Christianity, and less familiar religions. In fact it's been argued this has been a significant obstacle to attempts to modernize islam: it already is fairly modern.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:04
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Cingulate posted:This is I think a good example for my position that Islam is a very common-sense religion if you just accept a few premises which are already very popular to begin with, plus an actually fairly limited set of arbitrary fluff Pretty much any religion becomes very common-sense if you ignore the garbage and only ascribe to the portions that are mostly congruent with contemporary, secular values and behaviours. There is no contrast between what someone like Fuzz has described himself as and the vast majority of Christians/Jews in the West.
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Jan 11, 2016 22:31
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Lassitude posted:Pretty much any religion becomes very common-sense if you ignore the garbage and only ascribe to the portions that are mostly congruent with contemporary, secular values and behaviours. There is no contrast between what someone like Fuzz has described himself as and the vast majority of Christians/Jews in the West. I wasn't going to say it, but this. It doesn't seem common sense at all to ascribe rules to things which they didn't know about when said rules were put down. Its all extrapolation and reverse engineering from there it seems. For example, women being in back makes sense when you put it in the terms of guys looking at their butts, or for men to not wear death metal T shirts....but there weren't death metal T shirts back then. Why else codify what can be worn unless there is some further deeper meaning behind it other than "don't wear disruptive clothing"?
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Jan 12, 2016 17:04
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Booty was invented well before the seventh century.
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Jan 12, 2016 17:13
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Jastiger posted:That is probably true though heh True in practice but it kinda eliminates "personal responsibility" and "control over desires". It sounds like this (which wasn't well-accepted by, well, anyone): https://www.twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/331907383771148288
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Jan 14, 2016 20:29
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ashgromnies posted:True in practice but it kinda eliminates "personal responsibility" and "control over desires". I'm not going to disagree with your analysis here. The entire faith seems really schizophrenic.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:08
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So when the people that do that find out some women like guys' butts, are they going to change it?
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Jan 14, 2016 23:01
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Some mosques have the women in a back room or otherwise partition the praying sections. There isn't one universal way they handle segregating prayers, in any case. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Lassitude fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 02:18
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Why do converts change their names? Is there a rule you can't be a muslim and still be called Kate Smith or Alan Brown?
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Jan 19, 2016 12:53
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BattyKiara posted:Why do converts change their names? Is there a rule you can't be a muslim and still be called Kate Smith or Alan Brown? Nah there arent any rules, its just taken for granted for some reason. Its more converts trying to fit in with the culture of said muslim ethnic group i think.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:15
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I know converts who kept their names. I think in part it depends on to what degree Islam is a means of rejecting the culture you hate.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:31
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Cingulate posted:I know converts who kept their names. I think in part it depends on to what degree Islam is a means of rejecting the culture you hate. I think the only obligatory name change is if it's something like, religiously offensive, according to orthodox Muslim scholars.
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Jan 19, 2016 17:33
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Tendai posted:It used to be when I first converted that a lot of stuff online available to me said "YOU MUST CHANGE YOUR NAME," but luckily saner heads prevailed generally, it would seem now. Now most of the people I see personally doing it upon converting are white kids who want to be different. So what would be an absolutely nope, you can't have that name? I know some people in Sweden use Norse gods as names, like Thor and Freya. Would that count? Biblical names like Jesus and Peter?
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Jan 20, 2016 13:21
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BattyKiara posted:So what would be an absolutely nope, you can't have that name? I know some people in Sweden use Norse gods as names, like Thor and Freya. Would that count? Biblical names like Jesus and Peter? There aren't any actually prohibited names, technically. Unless your name is like "Fuckallah" or something, which considering most Republicans, there might actually be a baby out there named that... You could even be named Allah, as long as you're not actually claiming to be God or godly, it doesn't matter.
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Jan 20, 2016 14:08
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BattyKiara posted:So what would be an absolutely nope, you can't have that name? I know some people in Sweden use Norse gods as names, like Thor and Freya. Would that count? Biblical names like Jesus and Peter? Also I have never met anyone with the actual name Thor and now I really want to 
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Jan 20, 2016 16:09
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Tendai posted:Basically what Fuzz said above. As long as your name isn't Allahcansuckit or something, which seems unlikely, you'd probably be okay. It's again, more about intention than anything else. There's a much bigger emphasis on maintaining lineage and family ties than going all whacked-out and deciding you need an Arabic name. I've met a few, as well as an Odin. They didn't live up to it. Honestly, the name changing thing always struck me as more of a Nation of Islam thing with casting off your false slave name and embracing your true Muslim identity or whatever.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:25
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Checking in. Hope everyone is doing well. Still working on my book so i'll be out for the most part. On the name thing. There was pressure for me to change it from ordinary Muslims, but the scholars I consulted told me that a name change isnt necessary as long as a persons name doesnt mean anything bad or perhaps the name of a false deity.
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Jan 26, 2016 13:02
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I was curious about the structure and constitution of Islamic Courts. Specifically, I'm curious about whether they have a hierarchy of courts, with analogs to western courts of appeals, and the career path of someone becoming an Islamic Jurist. I expect there's a lot of variation between places too, but I'm curious about what unites courts around the world, and what differentiates them. I'm asking because I was reading about the career of an import Somali Qadi who started by succeeding his father to head an Idriseeyah sect of Sufi Islam and was then elected the head of a local sub-clan court, but I can't for the life of me find anything about how the system he was apart of actually functions as a whole. It's drat hard to find details on the large scale organization of Islamic Courts, all my searches lead to horrible American articles about the evils of Sharia Law or other tripe. Are judges elected? Or are they selected by more senior Jurists and/or the national government? Do Shafi'i courts have any unique traditions in their organization?
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Feb 8, 2016 18:55
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Squalid posted:I was curious about the structure and constitution of Islamic Courts. Specifically, I'm curious about whether they have a hierarchy of courts, with analogs to western courts of appeals, and the career path of someone becoming an Islamic Jurist. I expect there's a lot of variation between places too, but I'm curious about what unites courts around the world, and what differentiates them. I'm asking because I was reading about the career of an import Somali Qadi who started by succeeding his father to head an Idriseeyah sect of Sufi Islam and was then elected the head of a local sub-clan court, but I can't for the life of me find anything about how the system he was apart of actually functions as a whole. It's drat hard to find details on the large scale organization of Islamic Courts, all my searches lead to horrible American articles about the evils of Sharia Law or other tripe. Are judges elected? Or are they selected by more senior Jurists and/or the national government? Do Shafi'i courts have any unique traditions in their organization? Jurists in the Muslim world are called ulama (male) or alimah (female). The former is obviously more common than the latter, though there is a pretty big revival of female scholarship in that sense even in conservative areas in the past few years, particularly with regards to family and women-specific issues. There's no built-in thing saying women can't be jurists anymore than there is saying they can't be scholars, though obviously that's not really practiced much now. In order to become properly recognized (and even then, not everyone recognizes everyone) by Muslim orthodoxy, one must at minimum have gone through a religious school and the equivalent of a university (like al-Azhar in Egypt) and gotten the ijazat attadris wa'lifa, which is basically like a doctorate in law. Most of them specifically focus on fiqh, the area of Islamic jurisprudence, with some having expertise in the hadith, and so on and so forth. Basically like going to law school and getting a doctorate, with a focus on a particular area like US lawyers study Constitutional/corporate/etc law. Ijazat is roughly translated as "certification" but is to my knowledge only used when referring to fiqh or to Sufi studies. From there, actually finding a position -- I have no idea how it goes. It probably varies by country and system, and a lot of people will give independent interpretations/rulings as well. There's no overarching court for All Muslims or anything so the large-scale organization is going to depend hugely on the culture in question. Ideally someone who knows this poo poo can say something, sorry! EDIT: Oh hey Wikipedia actually has a decent article describing the ijazat and how it's used versus the term for other areas of study. Tendai fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 19:36
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Its anecdotal but might as well share it, my understanding for Qadi is that you are hired as one after completing your education. The hierarchy here is sorta is similar to any other court system i think. But from a conversation i had with a Yemeni guy, Qadis over there are a whole caste of their own, they intermarry and their children inherit the role and basically occupy the role of a judge or arbitrator in inter/intra-clan relations. I assume its radically different depending on how developed the country is.
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Feb 26, 2016 00:52
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Huh, yeah. I didn't even think about how it would vary from culture to culture. It's one of those areas where I think I should know more but the reading I've found in English is so dry.
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Feb 29, 2016 01:24
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