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Popular Thug Drink posted:people are also addicted to alcohol and tobacco, government taxes on those vices doesn't make the government bad Those taxes are usually meant to deter people engaging in those vices though. With the lottery, states actively encourage participation through advertisements. It'd be like if there were State-run tobacco farms, with the state running pro-smoking advertising campaigns. "Every cigarette you smoke helps pay for your local school's music program!" 
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Jan 12, 2016 18:24
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STAC Goat posted:I've always thought that gambling is good clean fun as long as you follow a few basic rules. Yea pretty much. Gambling is very fun if you understand the 'rules', but casinos are massively exploitative and designed to prey on the exact people who don't know those rules and a poo poo ton of those people are just kinda average people who can't afford to get bilked for their next few paychecks by flashy lights. I'm in favor of legalizing gambling and all but poo poo like a 'lottery expert' on a news network saying "THE BEST WAY TO WIN IS BUY ALL THE TICKETS YOU CAN BUY EVERY TICKET DO IT BUYBUYBUY" is pretty loving unacceptable.
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Jan 12, 2016 18:26
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See, I get that people rage against taxes, but so many of the other ways local and state governments raise revenue are just worse. There are lotteries, but there's also predatory enforcement of traffic laws and similar things (see what was going on in Ferguson, Missouri,) and all sorts of court fees that can be very difficult to get out from under.
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Jan 12, 2016 18:27
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea pretty much. Gambling is very fun if you understand the 'rules', but casinos are massively exploitative and designed to prey on the exact people who don't know those rules and a poo poo ton of those people are just kinda average people who can't afford to get bilked for their next few paychecks by flashy lights. I'm in favor of legalizing gambling and all but poo poo like a 'lottery expert' on a news network saying "THE BEST WAY TO WIN IS BUY ALL THE TICKETS YOU CAN BUY EVERY TICKET DO IT BUYBUYBUY" is pretty loving unacceptable. This is Fox News, though; are you really surprised they're encouraging poor people to throw their money away?
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Jan 12, 2016 18:28
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Keeshhound posted:Those taxes are usually meant to deter people engaging in those vices though. With the lottery, states actively encourage participation through advertisements. It'd be like if there were State-run tobacco farms, with the state running pro-smoking advertising campaigns. because playing the lottery isn't marginally harmful, and most people who play it don't have gambling problems - unlike tobacco, where 98% of people who purchase it are addicted, and it actively kills you by being toxic to your body by and large people who play the lottery aren't gambling addicts. it's just that the small set of gambling addicts who do play the lottery do play it harmfully. i think we can both agree that lotto money should be set aside for state-funded rehab and addiction treatment
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Jan 12, 2016 18:28
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StandardVC10 posted:See, I get that people rage against taxes, but so many of the other ways local and state governments raise revenue are just worse. There are lotteries, but there's also predatory enforcement of traffic laws and similar things (see what was going on in Ferguson, Missouri,) and all sorts of court fees that can be very difficult to get out from under. Well...yea...I don't think anyone ITT thinks that the lotto is the actual worst thing the state can do to exploit the poor. ToxicSlurpee posted:This is Fox News, though; are you really surprised they're encouraging poor people to throw their money away? Yea but even for them that was pretty blatant, usually they at least have the decency to cover up a bit, but that was just a dude grabbing the camera and shouting "CONSUME, CONSUME, CONSUME" for a second and people nodding and smiling around him like that was sage advice.
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Jan 12, 2016 18:29
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People that plan on winning the lottery reminds me of five year old me that thought genies were something that could potentially happen and someday I'd get my three wishes. I can understand if you are totally destitute that there has to be someway of clawing out. 
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Jan 12, 2016 18:32
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Popular Thug Drink posted:because playing the lottery isn't marginally harmful, and most people who play it don't have gambling problems - unlike tobacco, where 98% of people who purchase it are addicted, and it actively kills you by being toxic to your body Y'know, except for the states purposefully exploiting its poorest citizens to help wean the state of corporate taxes and basically encourage those with the most need to throw money away. No, its not marginally harmful. Its VERY harmful.
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Jan 12, 2016 18:32
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Well...yea...I don't think anyone ITT thinks that the lotto is the actual worst thing the state can do to exploit the poor. i prefer to see it as the state nationalizing exploitation of the poor which was going to happen anyway CommieGIR posted:Y'know, except for the states purposefully exploiting its poorest citizens to help wean the state of corporate taxes and basically encourage those with the most need to throw money away. so what do you think a poor gambling addict is going to do in the absence of a state-run lotto? not gamble? if a gambling addict doesn't recognize their addiction and seek treatment there's not much society can do for them, as i'm not comfortable compelling people into treatment for relatively harmless self destructive behavior
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Jan 12, 2016 18:33
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ripped from gibbis    
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Jan 12, 2016 18:43
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az posted:ripped from gibbis Is there a gibbis thread on milo/breitbart? if so link plz. Also god bless lowtax  .
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Jan 12, 2016 18:56
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FuzzySkinner posted:Is there a gibbis thread on milo/breitbart? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3759802
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Jan 12, 2016 19:00
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az posted:ripped from gibbis "My son is also named Breitbort" 
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Jan 12, 2016 19:05
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Jesus Christ  
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Jan 12, 2016 19:06
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Jesus Christ. I'm watching American History X for the first time in forever and realize that Trump sounds just like Ed Norton in his stump speeches. It's not a great movie or anything and it's full of dumb, cliche and simplistic platitudes. Just like Donald. Seriously I just listened to Derrick's speech before they trash the Korean grocery store and it's almost word for what what Trump says every loving day.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:08
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i prefer to see it as the state nationalizing exploitation of the poor which was going to happen anyway If the odds of scratchy tickets weren't criminally terrible I could see saying "well they're going to gamble anyway, might as well make it safe" being a valid argument but I'm being very serious when I say that the odds are an atrocity. The attitude is "well it's the government so it must be safe and fair!" but it loving isn't. At all. It also isn't "relatively harmless" self-destructive behavior. Gambling addicts will borrow money they'll never pay back, visit loan sharks, and affect their families. If an illegal loan holder doesn't pay up guess who the loan shark goes after next. Aside from that you have people gambling away their houses, squandering loans against valuable property, pissing away inheritances, failing to set their children up for college...the list just goes on and on. It's far from harmless. Compare that to things like tobacco or alcohol where rehab is a thing that exists and there is help out there for becoming non-addicted. Hell in some places that's publicly funded even. Gambling, however, is being actively encouraged by states now. Compare that to smoking and alcohol where the attitude is "OK we know you're going to do this anyway so we're going to make you pay taxes to clean up the problems it's going to cause. Also don't be stupid about it; drink and drive and we don't let you drive anymore." The state will happily take every cent you have if you're going to be willing to buy tickets. If you spend $50,000 on alcohol you will at the very least go home with a huge pile of booze. If you spend $50,000 on lottery tickets you're going to have a bunch of nothing.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:12
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 Oh good, this again.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:15
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Popular Thug Drink posted:by and large people who play the lottery aren't gambling addicts. it's just that the small set of gambling addicts who do play the lottery do play it harmfully. i think we can both agree that lotto money should be set aside for state-funded rehab and addiction treatment Do me a favor and google "Lottery Intervention."
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Jan 12, 2016 19:18
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ToxicSlurpee posted:If the odds of scratchy tickets weren't criminally terrible I could see saying "well they're going to gamble anyway, might as well make it safe" being a valid argument but I'm being very serious when I say that the odds are an atrocity. The attitude is "well it's the government so it must be safe and fair!" but it loving isn't. At all. people not knowing that gambling is a net money loser is not the government's fault ToxicSlurpee posted:It also isn't "relatively harmless" self-destructive behavior. Gambling addicts will borrow money they'll never pay back, visit loan sharks, and affect their families. If an illegal loan holder doesn't pay up guess who the loan shark goes after next. Aside from that you have people gambling away their houses, squandering loans against valuable property, pissing away inheritances, failing to set their children up for college...the list just goes on and on. It's far from harmless. and yet, having pissed away thousands of dollars collecting dolls or going on cruises or whatever, gambling, like any other thing people obsess over that isn't substance abuse, doesn't do any long-term damage to the body and thus is something people can fully recover from! therefore it's relatively harmless as self destructive behavior goes. it's less risky than sex addiction ToxicSlurpee posted:Compare that to things like tobacco or alcohol where rehab is a thing that exists and there is help out there for becoming non-addicted. Hell in some places that's publicly funded even. Gambling, however, is being actively encouraged by states now. Compare that to smoking and alcohol where the attitude is "OK we know you're going to do this anyway so we're going to make you pay taxes to clean up the problems it's going to cause. Also don't be stupid about it; drink and drive and we don't let you drive anymore." most people who gamble aren't addicted. most people who smoke are addicted. you can't really compare 'active encouragement' of a revenue source where the majority of people who engage in it do so responsibly with no harm to themselves or others ToxicSlurpee posted:The state will happily take every cent you have if you're going to be willing to buy tickets. If you spend $50,000 on alcohol you will at the very least go home with a huge pile of booze. If you spend $50,000 on lottery tickets you're going to have a bunch of nothing. this is very unfortunate but i don't see how the state is to blame for people who purchase too much of a legal commodity
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Jan 12, 2016 19:22
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Rick_Hunter posted:Jesus Christ Do note that this delightful piece of 'art' was actually commissioned my Milo himself. 
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Jan 12, 2016 19:23
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Perestroika posted:Do note that this delightful piece of 'art' was actually commissioned my Milo himself. No poo poo? 
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Jan 12, 2016 19:25
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all of this "the poors are ruining themselves for the benefit of the state" comes off as weirdly paternalistic and moralizing. poor people are allowed to engage in self-destructive behavior just like rich people can, this is a free country
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Jan 12, 2016 19:26
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Popular Thug Drink posted:this is very unfortunate but i don't see how the state is to blame for people who purchase too much of a legal commodity It's the state's fault because they actively encourage it while knowing that the odds are awful. That's why it's termed a "stupid tax;" the odds are publicly posted and they are sickeningly bad. That's especially when they run ads that suggest most of the money taken in goes into schools so you're helping out and benefiting anyway while also knowing full well those adverts are lies. Yeah some of the money goes to schools but very little of it does. And instead of paying for schools with lotto money which is effectively a poor tax why not...like...I don't know, just pay for them with taxes? The U.S. lottery system is hilariously corrupt and the states are actively encouraging it knowing that it is harmful. "Legal" does not automatically mean "right." The comparison to other harmful behaviors is quite apt; imagine if the government was advertising tobacco sales the same way. We'd be outraged.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:27
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Popular Thug Drink posted:all of this "the poors are ruining themselves for the benefit of the state" comes off as weirdly paternalistic and moralizing. poor people are allowed to engage in self-destructive behavior just like rich people can, this is a free country The state uses gambling funds as a way to cut taxes on corporations and wealthy. So, yes, you should probably be a little pissed that the state is picking the pocket of the poor and underprivileged to save companies and wealthy individuals a buck.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:29
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Sir Tonk posted:
Textbook companies are loving terrible. What does this have to do with Common Core?
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Jan 12, 2016 19:29
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Jurgan posted:Textbook companies are loving terrible. What does this have to do with Common Core? Pretty much this. We all knew school textbook companies are into ripping people off.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:32
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CommieGIR posted:The state uses gambling funds as a way to cut taxes on corporations and wealthy. So, yes, you should probably be a little pissed that the state is picking the pocket of the poor and underprivileged to save companies and wealthy individuals a buck. It doesn't particularly help that (at least) casinos also advertise in the most hilariously over-the-top manner about how GAMBLING IS AWESOME YOU MAKE LOTS MONIES*. *If you have a gambling addiction you shouldn't be here and need help. (Remember casinos are awesome when you get better.)
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Jan 12, 2016 19:32
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Yeah, was I supposed to believe that the guys publishing the books cared about kid's educations? That's the teachers' jobs', right? This just in, company that prints copies of the Bible aren't necessarily Christian but actually mostly just want some money.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:34
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It's the state's fault because they actively encourage it while knowing that the odds are awful. That's why it's termed a "stupid tax;" the odds are publicly posted and they are sickeningly bad. That's especially when they run ads that suggest most of the money taken in goes into schools so you're helping out and benefiting anyway while also knowing full well those adverts are lies. Yeah some of the money goes to schools but very little of it does. how do they actively encourage playing the lotto? like i said, my entire bachelor's education was paid for by state lottery money, so it's pretty weird for you to say that very little of that money goes to schools when ~$20,000 of it ended up in my pocket ToxicSlurpee posted:And instead of paying for schools with lotto money which is effectively a poor tax why not...like...I don't know, just pay for them with taxes? school taxes are predominantly paid for on the local level. lotteries are generally organized on the state level. a statewide lotto fund can be distributed to schools across jurisdictional lines and erase funding inequalities due to socioeconomic segregation even if the local jurisdiction can't or won't raise taxes CommieGIR posted:The state uses gambling funds as a way to cut taxes on corporations and wealthy. So, yes, you should probably be a little pissed that the state is picking the pocket of the poor and underprivileged to save companies and wealthy individuals a buck. this seems pretty hyperbolic. lotteries are a great way of raising funds without raising taxes, true, but to say that this is used to replace taxes on the wealthy when lotteries exist in states where corporate and income taxes are high seems like a weirdly ideological and cynical knee jerk reaction - especially when what the lottery pays for is usually fixed by law and set by the state government. none of my state's lottery replaces any income or corporate tax
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Jan 12, 2016 19:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:how do they actively encourage playing the lotto? http://nylottery.ny.gov/wps/portal/Home/Lottery/Home/Experience/TV+COMMERCIALS
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Jan 12, 2016 19:37
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Popular Thug Drink posted:people are also addicted to alcohol and tobacco, government taxes on those vices doesn't make the government bad Addictions aren't choices and the definition of addiction is literally being incapable of making the choice of saying no to whatever you're addicted to. Also nice FYGM there on your school money when it's been proven that a majority of lottery money isn't allocated how it's claimed to be.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:37
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Popular Thug Drink posted:this seems pretty hyperbolic. lotteries are a great way of raising funds without raising taxes, true, but to say that this is used to replace taxes on the wealthy when lotteries exist in states where corporate and income taxes are high seems like a weirdly ideological and cynical knee jerk reaction - especially when what the lottery pays for is usually fixed by law and set by the state government. none of my state's lottery replaces any income or corporate tax Uhhhhhhhhh. No, that is exactly what they are doing. Did you even watch the piece on lotteries? What they've done is this: They institute a lottery to benefit education, and then those funds get funneled into education and any other money that was going to education get's funneled out. Oh, but here's the fun part: Only about 30% of the funds collected actually go to education, and in states where lotteries have been setup to fund education, they have seen significant cuts to education funding. Huh. Its almost as if its a big scam. Let's not get into the gigantic regressive tax on low income (the average users of the lottery) families, that benefits the wealthy. What the gently caress is wrong with you? http://metrocosm.com/state-lotteries-high-cost-low-return-and-absurdly-dishonest/ CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 19:38
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Elephant Ambush posted:Addictions aren't choices and the definition of addiction is literally being incapable of making the choice of saying no to whatever you're addicted to. most people who play the lottery aren't addicted though, unless there are millions of gambling addicts in this country Elephant Ambush posted:
source? CommieGIR posted:Oh, but here's the fun part: Only about 30% of the funds collected actually go to education, and in states where lotteries have been setup to fund education, they have seen significant cuts to education funding. Huh. Its almost as if its a big scam. source? my state lottery funded a program which didn't exist before so i fail to see what tax expenditure it displaced CommieGIR posted:Let's not get into the gigantic regressive tax on low income (the average users of the lottery) families, that benefits the wealthy. What the gently caress is wrong with you? taxes aren't voluntary, friend. i have faith that most poor people who choose to play the lottery are making rational decisions, but i'm confident you know better than they do what to do with their money
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Jan 12, 2016 19:42
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BiggerBoat posted:Jesus Christ. I'm watching American History X for the first time in forever and realize that Trump sounds just like Ed Norton in his stump speeches. It's not a great movie or anything and it's full of dumb, cliche and simplistic platitudes. Just like Donald. Someone beat you to it. Quiz: Who said it: Donald Trump or the white supremacist from American History X? Maybe this is why a full-blown white supremacist has been blanketing Iowa with robocalls in support of Trump. az posted:ripped from gibbis And what does a "cultural libertarian" do when he has a minor problem with a private company?  He runs crying to the highest government office in the land!
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Jan 12, 2016 19:44
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Popular Thug Drink posted:source? my state lottery funded a program which didn't exist before so i fail to see what tax expenditure it displaced Name your state https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...TUNlS_blog.html https://www.tuition.io/blog/2013/03/gambling-with-our-future-why-the-lottery-is-failing-education/ http://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/most-states-have-cut-school-funding-and-some-continue-cutting Popular Thug Drink posted:taxes aren't voluntary, friend. i have faith that most poor people who choose to play the lottery are making rational decisions, but i'm confident you know better than they do what to do with their money You're an idiot if you think this statement actually flies.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:45
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Popular Thug Drink posted:how do they actively encourage playing the lotto? like i said, my entire bachelor's education was paid for by state lottery money, so it's pretty weird for you to say that very little of that money goes to schools when ~$20,000 of it ended up in my pocket Advertising. You obviously didn't watch the Oliver video. Go watch it. I'll wait. Billions (yes, with a B) are spent making sure that people play the lottery and think it's a cool and good thing to do. In PA it's advertised as "benefits older Pennsylvanians" but is never explained how. Maybe your state actually does it right and it isn't a gigantic scam. In that case good for you! But for pretty much every other state it's a gigantic, shameless scam. quote:taxes aren't voluntary, friend. i have faith that most poor people who choose to play the lottery are making rational decisions, but i'm confident you know better than they do what to do with their money Then you're a loving idiot or so dangerously detached from reality you should be in a padded cell.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:45
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I do appreciate Illinois' cynical honesty with their lottery slogan: "Anything's Possible"
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Jan 12, 2016 19:46
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CommieGIR posted:
ToxicSlurpee posted:Then you're a loving idiot or so dangerously detached from reality you should be in a padded cell. if you think i'm an idiot for allowing people the dignity of choosing what to spend their money on without hectoring them for being stupid addicts, then i guess i'm an idiot in your eyes. i can live with that
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Jan 12, 2016 19:48
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Popular Thug Drink posted:if you think i'm an idiot for allowing people the dignity of choosing what to spend their money on without hectoring them for being stupid addicts, then i guess i'm an idiot in your eyes. i can live with that Name your state and back your claims or stop arguing about this. The overall studies, the Oliver piece all refute what you are saying, so put up or shutup. Its not about whether they are WILLING to play in the lottery, its that the lottery is specifically designed to screw them, not just by playing a game with unlikely statistics, but by basically putting the weight of the state budget on their backs. We're not even focusing on that addiction portion, so focus and come back with some actual numbers. State and Study, or stop arguing.
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Jan 12, 2016 19:50
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CommieGIR posted:Its not about whether they are WILLING to play in the lottery, its that the lottery is specifically designed to screw them, not just by playing a game with unlikely statistics, but by basically putting the weight of the state budget on their backs. We're not even focusing on that addiction portion, so focus and come back with some actual numbers. so because some (but not all) state governments lean more heavily on the lottery to fund education in a time when nearly all states cut their budgets due to lower tax reciepts, you draw the conclusion that the lottery is a conspiracy against the poor? keeping in mind that we're talking about supplemental funding to schools, and the bulk of school funding in america is controlled on the local level? this is a bit of a stretch, to be generous
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Jan 12, 2016 19:54
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