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ReidRansom posted:Why would you expect any better of her quote:and why should anyone be paying attention to her to begin with? Because she is part of a campaign operation, it seems
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Jan 12, 2016 22:15
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I mean maybe Clinton is playing some 11th dimensional chess to keep the race tighter than it is or the young-old narrative spun up by the media is bullshit, but she's not looking great right now heading into Iowa and NH.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:15
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Talmonis posted:Not all of us. I'm here at any rate, as are (Im guessing) most of the goons in this here thread. Besides, a lot of well meaning people like to be reminded that we're in it together. Another is that people react when they think they're being tricked. And since they are being tricked into hating their neighbors by the Republicans, maybe that should be pointed out to them. Loudly and often. Talmonis posted:As for Sanders, I think you're ascribing racist motive when simple incompetence and short sightedness will do. The guy has always focused on economic issues and thinks they'll fix the rest and that everyone else just doesn't "get it". Being well-meaning is very nice. It's so much better than being openly malevolent. But it's not the same thing as being well-informed, and people who can't tell the difference tend to get very defensive when POCs disagree with the white people who are trying to speak on their behalf. POCs don't hate you or think you're evil just because they think you hold racist ideas or do things that hold back racial progress. They just want to speak about the things they have more experience with than you do, and they want you to listen. White progressives suck at that, because they think being progressive means they don't have anything more to learn. White people have to overcome that before they can be meaningful allies in the fight against racism. They can definitely do it! But most of them aren't there yet, and it's not something that just kicks in automatically if a sufficiently progressive candidate enters the field.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:16
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Talmonis posted:Unhelpful. Hurtful even, regardless of it's accuracy, if you want to chip away at racist tensions. Yep white people were going to end racism but someone made a joke on an internet forum, if only black people would stop calling attention to race it would go away!
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Jan 12, 2016 22:17
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:, but that's because you see "racist" and revise it to "evil" and obviously Sanders isn't evil so he can't be racist phew problem solved. Yep, paired terms create a lot of muddled thinking
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Jan 12, 2016 22:18
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It is interesting how willing some on the left are to use the narrative of the right when it suits them. I don't think this country is declining and I don't see how a progressive could look at the evidence and think it is declining either.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:18
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Talmonis posted:Unhelpful. Hurtful even, regardless of it's accuracy, if you want to chip away at racist tensions. Yikes.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:19
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blue squares posted:I don't know, because she is a smart person? I've never seen any indication of the first and yeah the second still doesn't mean anyone should care or pay attention any more than they would to someone shouting on a corner. Maybe when her list of life achievements isn't crowned by getting humped into her mother by her father.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:19
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It's getting better but not nearly fast enough, and tens of thousands die needlessly because of that fact, which makes it feel like a decline to a lot of people
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Jan 12, 2016 22:19
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Potential BFF posted:What is it with this subforum and the weird hangup on engineering degrees? I don't even necessarily disagree, I would not want to hang out in my free time with most of the folks I went to school or worked with but goddamn, come on. Justus posted:As a computer engineer that works for the Department of Defense, I can anecdotally say that pretty much all the engineers I work with in the DoD only ever want to talk about cars and guns. Go figure. The "cars and guns" thing is true where I work as well, although I think the fact that my workplace is agriculture/construction related and tends to hire people from a few really specific places makes the feel a bit different. There is definitely a big disconnect between how D&D views engineers and how literally everyone else I have ever met views them. Sure there are stereotypes but I've never met someone who upon hearing the that someone was an engineer would assume a braindead, libertarian, socially inept, arrogant rear end in a top hat which seems to be the assumption here.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:19
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) is.
I just got the job because federal employment is the Best Deal in America, and DoD is the easiest way to get a federal job as an engineer. But engineering is a second career for me after getting a first bachelor's in music composition and spending all my twenties as a working musician, so with my combination of backgrounds I don't really fit in anywhere anyways.
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ReidRansom posted:I've never seen any indication of the first and yeah the second still doesn't mean anyone should care or pay attention any more than they would to someone shouting on a corner. Maybe when her list of life achievements isn't crowned by getting humped into her mother by her father. You're an idiot. Go check out her wikipedia page at least, drat edit: why am i talking to someone with an anime avatar?
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Jan 12, 2016 22:20
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ReidRansom posted:I've never seen any indication of the first and yeah the second still doesn't mean anyone should care or pay attention any more than they would to someone shouting on a corner. Maybe when her list of life achievements isn't crowned by getting humped into her mother by her father. Jesus christ dude, take it to reddit. They love hearing about oval office feminazis and their crotchdroppings there. They'll compliment your fedora too.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:21
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Sanders and Trump win Iowa and New Hampshire, chaos reigns.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:23
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MaxxBot posted:The "cars and guns" thing is true where I work as well, although I think the fact that my workplace is agriculture/construction related and tends to hire people from a few really specific places makes the feel a bit different. There is definitely a big disconnect between how D&D views engineers and how literally everyone else I have ever met views them. Sure there are stereotypes but I've never met someone who upon hearing the that someone was an engineer would assume a braindead, libertarian, socially inept, arrogant rear end in a top hat which seems to be the assumption here. Its a valley thing.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:23
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When in the History of American Government ever, ever even just once had someone who got where they were because of getting humped into their mother by their father???
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Jan 12, 2016 22:24
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I don't know about the super internal workings of the Clinton campaign but the vibe Iv been getting from were I am is that there is a certain panic about Sanders momentum in the polls and people really don't want this to turn into another 2008. The farther right rhetoric we are seeing is probably a panicked attempt to bring in moderates (who don't exist) and people turned off by the GOP being a shitshow.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:24
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Trabisnikof posted:It is interesting how willing some on the left are to use the narrative of the right when it suits them. I don't think this country is declining and I don't see how a progressive could look at the evidence and think it is declining either. Depends on how you define decline. As far as unquestioned power on an international stage, the US is definitely declining and will continue to, but that's not a bad thing, from a peacenik perspective, honestly. In social liberalism, the US is well on its way up, ignoring a large vocal backlash. On economic welfare and labor law, it's really on the precipice between burning it all down and possibly coming along to be like every other G8 country, but with a lot of stupid baggage. Trade law it's free market all day erryday, and will continue to be so, following the general trend of globalization.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:24
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Not sure if this has been posted: http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/iowa-republican/
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Jan 12, 2016 22:25
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Talmonis posted:As for Sanders, I think you're ascribing racist motive when simple incompetence and short sightedness will do. The guy has always focused on economic issues and thinks they'll fix the rest and that everyone else just doesn't "get it". I'm not usually one to predict the course of politics but reading forum during this primary has made me feel 100% certain that the white collar professional part of the liberal base is absolutely incapable of getting it. It doesn't matter how many state houses the party loses, it doesn't matter how many times you poll Iowa voters about issues, there's just a large chunk of people who refuse to understand it. It's extremely frustrating since this same subsect of voters thoroughly grasp white/male/christian/cis privilege but have an insane blind spot when it comes to money. To spell it out in clear terms: if you are worried about not being able to retire, losing your home, or can't afford medical treatment then economic issues are going to be VERY important to you politically. If wealth inequality grows in this country more an more voters will slip into this category. If your flavor of liberal ideology frames people who are either in poverty or slowly creeping into it as selfish, you are going to lose and lose horribly. Doing that will cede ground to the right and, eventually, the US reactionaries will start adopting the rhetoric and policies that the European right are starting to embrace. We've seen it before with 'Hands' and you can see them testing the waters again already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-SC1uUiT9s If you think Trump is bad, he might just be the beginning. Imagine in 2020 if we have another Republican wildman candidate who wants to close the borders, lock up immigrants, and then he promises to raise the minimum wage for 'Real Americans'? This is basically what is happening right now across the Atlantic and it could happen here, too.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:27
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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pentagon-2-u-s-navy-boats-held-iran-military-n495031?cid=sm_tw&hootPostID=8c3d58ec5990642322827df93f454456 Pentagon: 2 U.S. Navy Boats Held by Iran Military quote:Iranian military forces seized two U.S. Navy boats Tuesday and are holding them in custody on Iran's Farsi Island in the middle of the Persian Gulf, senior U.S. officials told NBC News.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:27
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Like I'm not going to go to bat for the Clintons or w/e on their lovely policies like the very tepid commitment to campaign finance reform but it shouldn't surprise anyone the Clintons represent a more "soft left" (as in not as left) part of the Dem party and main thing is the fact Hillary is good at getting things done. EDIT: The Democrats should count their blessings they don't have any wrong or bad choices.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:30
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I think my favorite part of the "Bernie isn't going to do anything about helping minorities, just try to fix economic problems!" is that the common solution to this is to elect someone who both doesn't give a poo poo about helping minorities and isn't going to do poo poo about economic problems.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:32
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blue squares posted:You're an idiot. Go check out her wikipedia page at least, drat Because I'm here saying things. Evidently that's the bar to be cleared.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:32
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Venom Snake posted:I don't know about the super internal workings of the Clinton campaign but the vibe Iv been getting from were I am is that there is a certain panic about Sanders momentum in the polls and people really don't want this to turn into another 2008. The farther right rhetoric we are seeing is probably a panicked attempt to bring in moderates (who don't exist) and people turned off by the GOP being a shitshow. That's true and really weird. I bet a lot of people going to bat for Clinton don't have much experience living in foreign countries. She's pretty far rightwing compared to her equivalent in other countries and Bernie would actually be considered center. It's just wild how rightwing people are in the US.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:33
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I'm really eager to watch the State of the Union address tonight. I've gone through an interesting progression with President Obama over the years. At first, I was really excited, like most liberals. Then, again like a lot of liberals, I felt disappointed by the unrealistic expectations I had as a political newcomer. In the last year, though, I have started to appreciate Obama a lot more. Still, I really don't know where I stand on his presidency overall. Are there any good, in-depth rundowns of the Obama Presidency that I could read and help me come to a better understanding of his administration?
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Jan 12, 2016 22:33
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mcmagic posted:Hillary Clinton She's talking about stuff like peeling off enough libertarians to get mandatory minimum sentences reformed. She is also saying that she remembered what she had to do to get her stuff done while in the minority and facing an opposition president. And that when she is president she will give Republicans the chance to work with her on the same basis. And of course she's positioning herself as the adult in the room by making promises in ways that let her back out of, because the Republicans have lost their goddamn minds.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:33
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Talmonis posted:Bernie can't win the presidency, and most of us are pragmatic enough to hold our noses to prevent a Republican from burning down the country at an even faster pace then presently. He polls better against the Republican field than Hillary Clinton does.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:35
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Venom Snake posted:Like I'm not going to go to bat for the Clintons or w/e on their lovely policies like the very tepid commitment to campaign finance reform but it shouldn't surprise anyone the Clintons represent a more "soft left" (as in not as left) part of the Dem party and main thing is the fact Hillary is good at getting things done. Exactly, after the last six years I'm ready for a POTUS that already hates the right and knows they won't play fair. Worst case scenario is the status quo, so literally any progress she makes will be better for America.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:37
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Fried Chicken posted:http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pentagon-2-u-s-navy-boats-held-iran-military-n495031?cid=sm_tw&hootPostID=8c3d58ec5990642322827df93f454456 Cue conservative hysteria over the fact that we haven't immediately declared war on Iran to win back are troops. Seriously though, they're gonna have an absolute field day over how "weak" this looks and that we didn't fight them off, because that's how military doctrine and international relations work in their minds. OBAMA TOLD THEM TO STAND DOWN!!!
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Jan 12, 2016 22:37
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Khisanth Magus posted:I think my favorite part of the "Bernie isn't going to do anything about helping minorities, just try to fix economic problems!" is that the common solution to this is to elect someone who both doesn't give a poo poo about helping minorities and isn't going to do poo poo about economic problems. I wouldn't say Hillary would be bad for minorities or the economy. Basically the only really objectively bad thing about her is that shes not committed to fixing the issue of money in politics which granted is a big problem but well.....you take what you can get. Buckwheat Sings posted:That's true and really weird. I bet a lot of people going to bat for Clinton don't have much experience living in foreign countries. She's pretty far rightwing compared to her equivalent in other countries and Bernie would actually be considered center. It's just wild how rightwing people are in the US. While the overton window is shifted farther to the left in many European countries in general the U.S. trends more conservative because the way the system is set up is that you have two big tend parties. This isn't getting into the issue with racism Europe is having to finally come to terms with which the U.S. has kinda dealt with better in some area's (some states specifically).
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Jan 12, 2016 22:40
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Mulva posted:Exactly, after the last six years I'm ready for a POTUS that already hates the right and knows they won't play fair. Worst case scenario is the status quo, so literally any progress she makes will be better for America. "Clinton 2016: Worst Case Scenario Is The Status Quo"
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Jan 12, 2016 22:41
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yikes. Mulva posted:Yep white people were going to end racism but someone made a joke on an internet forum, if only black people would stop calling attention to race it would go away! The statement was "White people really are the worst." Kind of a lovely thing to say, and turned into any other ethnic group would be racist as hell to boot. As common a refrain as it is around here, it's pretty tiresome. And no, nobody who already tries to "get it" as TB so eloquently puts it, is going to stop from stupid poo poo said on the internet, but I maintain that things like that are offputting to anyone new to it all.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:43
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Yep you have the debate and relate to a point of empathy and respect. Those who work 2 jobs and still can't get to the promised American dream are angry and really don't have the time to spend looking up facts and statistics. All they see is every year becoming harder and more financial stress and catastrophe. So scapegoats are easier but they're the wrong people to be pointing fingers at because we're still very racist. They're not selfish. They're tired, stressed and angry and it's why Trump is popular and Bernie is gaining momentum.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:44
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Maarek posted:He polls better against the Republican field than Hillary Clinton does. Bernie's biggest issues are thus: -Large inexperience running a national campaign (doesn't really have that well formed policy on things outside the economy and social issues, foreign policy is a huge deal for a lot of people) -Running off that his campaign isn't very well put together and he needs to pick better people to work with, the amount of hostility shown on the upper tiers of his campaign towards his opponent and the party is distressing -Promising things that will come off as unrealistic (not that they maybe absolutely are) -Way to nice to the GOP.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:45
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Cue conservative hysteria over the fact that we haven't immediately declared war on Iran to win back are troops. I can't wait for the Michael Bay film just in time for the 2020 election.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:45
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Maarek posted:"Clinton 2016: Worst Case Scenario Is The Status Quo" Hey we'll be lucky to get out of the GOP convention without a plank calling for internment camps. Talmonis posted:The statement was "White people really are the worst." Kind of a lovely thing to say, and turned into any other ethnic group would be racist as hell to boot. As common a refrain as it is around here, it's pretty tiresome. And no, nobody who already tries to "get it" as TB so eloquently puts it, is going to stop from stupid poo poo said on the internet, but I maintain that things like that are offputting to anyone new to it all. Or maybe someone might look at that, wonder why that sentiment seems common and then educate themselves.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:45
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Fried Chicken posted:http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pentagon-2-u-s-navy-boats-held-iran-military-n495031?cid=sm_tw&hootPostID=8c3d58ec5990642322827df93f454456 Republican twitter instantly exploded in glee that American soldiers might be getting executed on the same day Obama is delivering the State of the Union. It was kind of sick, honestly.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:46
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Maarek posted:"Clinton 2016: Worst Case Scenario Is The Status Quo" If you don't like status quo you picked the wrong political system to be engaged in; generally progress in America is slowed by the slugish nature of the system (which is intentionally built in to balance power). You can see the symptoms of how broken it is in that SCOTUS and the President basically need to enact change unilaterally to get anything down because America forgot how to democracy slowly over the years.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:47
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Venom Snake posted:
I don't think that either of these things are necessarily an issue. The first one falls apart because nobody likes Hillary Clinton or the Democratic leadership, even if it's kneejerk. The second one, well, there's a lot of Very Serious People who love that sort of "bipartisan" bullshit. I think these both play well in terms of optics, especially since you can spin it as Bernie being willing to work with anyone.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:48
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Mulva posted:
Considering most of the preconceived notions that people have, I doubt it. It feeds into the persecution complex that the Right tries to induce into the white majority. "See, they hate you! They're the Real Racists!"
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Jan 12, 2016 22:51
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