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Its ok. But to each their own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZVDa44vK2E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxG0qDj9Ow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLt0nZug-YU
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Jan 13, 2016 05:50
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wyoming posted:That would've made sense. But instead we have a Master Race Nazi following a Beksiński monolith along with Anime Vader, all living together on a communist super planet. They're ideologically confused and in disarray after the fall of the Empire. You're right that it IS a weird mish mash of Nazi and Communist imagery but eh, it worked for me. I see where you're coming from though.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:01
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BrianWilly posted:The Jedi were absolutely, demonstrably unprepared to handle raising a nine-year-old. It's not that training nine-year-olds in the Force is impossible, it's that you can't do it the way the Jedi did. This is what makes it possible to empathize with both of them. You can understand why Anakin is frustrated with Obi-Wan, because Obi-Wan is frequently unfair to him. But you can also understand why Obi-Wan is frustrated with Anakin, because Anakin has a tendency to act out in immature ways. It's a pretty classic father/son relationship. Fathers are oppressive, sons are rebellious. Everyone wanting Anakin and Obi-Wan to be total Bros 4 Lyfe forgot that Obi-Wan was Anakin's dad before he was his best friend. And I think lots of people miss this, but Anakin and Obi-Wan actually are bonding with each other during the speeder chase. They're still sniping at each other, but unlike before, it looks like they're actually kind of enjoying it. Obi-Wan and Anakin are both sardonic assholes. It's the one thing they actually have in common, so that's how they choose to relate to each other. And, sure enough, that's exactly how their friendship is portrayed in ROTS and TCW. In TCW in particular they're presented like a perpetually bickering, old married couple. Which, given the stark differences in their personalities and their past history as a contentious father/son unit, is the most realistic way I can think of for the relationship to have evolved into a mutually respectful bond between equals. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 06:05
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:They're ideologically confused and in disarray after the fall of the Empire. You're right that it IS a weird mish mash of Nazi and Communist imagery but eh, it worked for me. I see where you're coming from though.   (The Force Awakens is an MCU movie.)
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Jan 13, 2016 06:07
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Droids are people.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:11
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wyoming posted:All droids show personality, racist. Not true chucklehead 
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Jan 13, 2016 06:17
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wyoming posted:droids show personality
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Jan 13, 2016 06:24
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Ersatz posted:Yes, but are they actually self-aware? We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:24
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Bongo Bill posted:We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:26
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Ersatz posted:Does C-3PO subjectively experience that suffering, or is he just pretending to, per his human-cyborg relations programming? Don't call me a mindless philosopher, you overweight blob of grease.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:28
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Bongo Bill posted:Don't call me a mindless philosopher, you overweight blob of grease. For context, this is two droids talking to each other in private, early on in A New Hope, which starts off (after the initial chase sequence) with ~15 minutes of two droids talking to each other in private. If the droids are p-zombies, so is everyone else in the film. And if C-3PO and R2-D2 are people, then so are the battle droids. There are heroes on both sides.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:33
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ungulateman posted:For context, this is two droids talking to each other in private, early on in A New Hope, which starts off (after the initial chase sequence) with ~15 minutes of two droids talking to each other in private. Return of the Jedi features a droid torture chamber. Droids feel pain. The Clone Wars also has too many instances of R2 freaking out after witnessing other droids get abused.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:39
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ungulateman posted:For context, this is two droids talking to each other in private, early on in A New Hope, which starts off (after the initial chase sequence) with ~15 minutes of two droids talking to each other in private. Detective No. 27 posted:Return of the Jedi features a droid torture chamber. Droids feel pain. The Clone Wars also has too many instances of R2 freaking out after witnessing other droids get abused. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 06:41
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Ersatz posted:What makes you sure that they "feel" the pain that they're programmed to avoid? What makes you sure that you feel the pain you're programmed to avoid?
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Jan 13, 2016 06:45
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Ersatz posted:What makes you sure that they "feel" the pain that they're programmed to avoid? The droid is screaming. Droids are unlike real-world robots. Star Wars is a metaphor. More to the point, it is a metaphor in the tradition of works of fiction that use the idea of mechanical people to explore the idea of the dehumanizing effects of treating people like machines. This tradition predates the invention of actual robots. Indeed, Star Wars itself was written before anybody knew what robots would be like in reality.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:47
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Zoran posted:What makes you sure that you feel the pain you're programmed to avoid?
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Jan 13, 2016 06:47
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Ersatz posted:Yes, but are they actually self-aware? Well, they're characters in a series of movies, so, more than you I would argue.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:49
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Ersatz posted:I experience qualia. So do droids. That's why they're people. You're making faulty assumptions based on the physical makeup of fictional, metaphorical characters. There's a reason I quoted The Merchant of Venice and replaced 'jew' with 'droid'.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:54
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Ersatz posted:I experience qualia. How do I know you're not just pretending to have subjective experiences, per your instincts to get along with other humans like me? This is just meaningless philosophical masturbation. The droids in Star Wars are alive because they think and react exactly as humans do. Star Wars is not a sci-fi series interested in the technicalities of sentience.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:55
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ungulateman posted:So do droids. That's why they're people. You're making faulty assumptions based on the physical makeup of fictional, metaphorical characters. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 06:59
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Zoran posted:How do I know you're not just pretending to have subjective experiences, per your instincts to get along with other humans like me? It's not meaningless in the context of a discussion about whether it was ethical for Anakin to kill battle droids.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:02
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I think it was ethical for Anakin to kill battle droids in the sense that he is being attacked by them or is trying to stop them from hurting others. Certainly if it was Johnny Naboo blowing up the enemy mothership this would be a defensible act of war. However, it isn't trivial either.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:06
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People are willfully misinterpreting Lucas' intent in regards to droid sentience and person hood. It's not as simple as "all droids are people" as they most emphatically are not. The droidekas, super battle droids and IG-100 MagnaGuards are not portrayed as having anything resembling a personality. They're killing machines, the same as a tank or a rifle. That's the point. It's more nuanced than what's being discussed here.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:06
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Ersatz posted:I'm asking for a justification of your assumptions. Why, for example, do you assume that droids experience qualia? Daniel Dennett identifies four properties that are commonly ascribed to qualia. According to these, qualia are: ineffable; that is, they cannot be communicated, or apprehended by any other means than direct experience. intrinsic; that is, they are non-relational properties, which do not change depending on the experience's relation to other things. private; that is, all interpersonal comparisons of qualia are systematically impossible. directly or immediately apprehensible in consciousness; that is, to experience a quale is to know one experiences a quale, and to know all there is to know about that quale. how can you assume they do not? Edit: droids are obviously a representative of the disposable blue collar working class manipulated into their corporate overlords to fight the wealthy elite furthering not their own interests but that of the company. the jedi blinded by their status and power not only do they ignore the plight of the droids but they even attack them with the force a contradiction to their very ethos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1UPccudqmU Elfgames fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 07:08
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Yaws posted:People are willfully misinterpreting Lucas' intent in regards to droid sentience and person hood. It's not as simple as "all droids are people" as they most emphatically are not. The droidekas, super battle droids and IG-100 MagnaGuards are not portrayed as having anything resembling a personality. They're killing machines, the same as a tank or a rifle. That's the point. It's more nuanced than what's being discussed here. Are you saying the uniform of war dehumanizes, that soldiers are no longer beings? I mean, what personality does killing machine Boba Fett show?
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Jan 13, 2016 07:14
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I'll try to make this tedious enough for you to understand. The droid is not feeling pain, because it is not a droid at all, but a reproduction of a series of photographs which, when viewed in sequence, synchronize with an audio recording distributed alongside. The photographs depict a puppet being manipulated so that its appendages resemble, somewhat abstractly, the motions of a person or animal in distress, and the audio has a corresponding resemblance to sounds uttered in response to pain and fear. Photographs, phonographs, puppets, and transient images thereof are all incapable of thought. However, unfortunate beings that we are, images are our only means of experiencing the world, and in order to derive useful information through such a crude and indirection, we employ the process of interpretation. One important property of images is that images depicting extremely different scenarios can appear to be very similar, if not identical. As a result, beings such as our fortunate selves who have the ability to act upon the world can cause images to appear which resemble the images we predict to result from non-demonstrable, false, impossible, or even absurd phenomena, such as a walking toaster having emotions similar to your own.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:18
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Clearly only some Stormtroopers show personality. The rest are mindless killing machines. They're clearly made only for war.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:18
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Bongo Bill posted:I'll try to make this tedious enough for you to understand. Your earlier post about droids-as-metaphors was more interesting.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:22
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Ersatz posted:That's great, but beside the point. Similarly, it is more interesting to interpret the fictional robots as having souls.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:23
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Bongo Bill posted:Similarly, it is more interesting to interpret the fictional robots as having souls. Someone earlier made the point, for example, that you can learn a lot about a character through their treatment of droids. Luke treats R2 like a loyal dog, but later abandons him. Leia generally treats C-3PO with more respect than Han does, but switches 3PO off out of annoyance in ESB. Was it wrong for Luke to abandon R2, or for Leia to turn off C-3PO? Why do these characters treat the droids with respect in some instances, and like objects in others? The uncertainty makes these questions more fun to consider. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 07:36
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Elfgames posted:Daniel Dennett identifies four properties that are commonly ascribed to qualia. According to these, qualia are:
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Jan 13, 2016 07:39
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wyoming posted:You forgot to say "Wakka wakka!" It's pretty easy to understand: oppressive state is dismantled, privileged class romanticizes the period, their children attempt to return to the imaginary great time. Clearest example would be how slavery was banned, the south was whitewashed with The Lost Cause nonsense, and as a result you get nutcase confederacy cosplayers. The Empire is dismantled, the Imperials yearn for the time where they were moff ubermensch, their kids push for an absurd inconsistent idea of the Empire. They're a pastiche of fascism because they are actively trying to be fascists without understanding the bad side at all. Like if the weirdos who collect nazi memorabilia talked about how he wished Nazi Germany was still around for their fashion sense. The simpsons pic is more truth than parody in the case of FO.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:47
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Ersatz posted:And it's even more interesting to not assume that they do, and to consider the ethical/philosophical ramifications of that uncertainty, and the additional meaning gained by it. Luke abandons his human friends too.
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Jan 13, 2016 08:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8anmLUWGIg&t=4s
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Jan 13, 2016 08:25
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I have nothing else to add to the current discussion other than the fact that I saw on Variety that Miles Teller is apparently on the short list for playing Han in the anthology movie and jesus gently caress please don't make that turd Han loving Solo
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Jan 13, 2016 08:50
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That Han Solo movie is a really bad idea and I wish that Disney wasn't actually going ahead with it.
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Jan 13, 2016 09:20
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RedneckwithGuns posted:I have nothing else to add to the current discussion other than the fact that I saw on Variety that Miles Teller is apparently on the short list for playing Han in the anthology movie and jesus gently caress please don't make that turd Han loving Solo One would think that the stank of the Fantastic Four movie would prevent him from getting the role.
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Jan 13, 2016 09:56
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Guy A. Person posted:How do you even get half the jokes in RLM if you haven't seen the actual movies? Like I sort've get you thinking you "saved" him from watching the prequels and I don't care about that. I don't see how it's enjoyable at all to watch RLM with no context though. No I'm sorry. He's seen the prequels already. He just wanted to watch them again. Like saying when he got home from the theater. Then we hung out at my house for a bit and I put on the RLM review and by the time he left, he said he couldn't watch the prequels anymore but wanted to watch the rest of the reviews.
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Jan 13, 2016 16:34
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AndyElusive posted:Did the Galactic Empire and their goals confuse this many people in 1977 as the First Order did in 2015? The opening crawl for a New Hope implies or flat out states the following things: - There is a Galactic Empire, they are evil, and they have been winning for a long time. - They're called an Empire which brings to mind things like the British and Roman Empires, pretty much the dominant power of the galaxy. They're pursuing power and control for their own sakes. - They're rich and evil enough to be able to secretly build something to destroy entire planets. Then in the film you find out that they're even 'worse' than the Roman Empire, dissolving the Senate (even some of the craziest and power hungry emperors didn't do that!) and they literally say "We will rule through fear". So they're pretty much an evil empire who are pursuing power for power's sake. Force Awakens has 6 films worth of baggage to deal with concerning their new enemies, it turns out according to the opening crawl they're remnants of the Empire who really hate Luke, but they're different from the Galactic Empire and changed their name because??
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Jan 13, 2016 16:35
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The weird thing is how Hux thinks it's some betrayal on the Republic's part that they support the Resistance in secret. If the First Order is building up military power and attacking planets and systems that are part of the Republic, why would they expect the Republic to hold to the treaty they signed with the remnants of the Empire? I'm sure the treaty specified "there will be peace so long as you guys don't start making Star Destroyers and Death Stars and using them to attack people."
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Jan 13, 2016 16:41
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