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Avenging Dentist posted:I'm kind of curious as to what those people would actually do. Like if WotC reprinted the Black Lotus, are those companies just going to stop buying new MTG cards even though their value isn't really affected at all by the supply of Black Lotuses? Seems a bit like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. There's two problems. The first one is that no one really knows what happens, and Magic's management is essentially a cargo cult that was handed a game that perfectly sorts itself into multiple points in the market and has a bunch of ways to extract dollars from you even when you're done with a given on the shelf product. When you don't understand the risks but you're making a tidy sum every quarter you become, well, risk adverse. There's no real benefit to them, and that leads to point two. I'm going to use made up numbers here, but Magic costs... Let's say a thousand dollars to get enough of a collection assuming you follow the rotation without too much friction for standard. Modern, slower but bigger initial bump, so we'll say two grand. Being able to build multiple legacy decks is much more than that. The amount of value that needs to drop in legacy for most of the people complaining to actually play is approaching a figure that... Well, ok, you go into the store tomorrow and every single 40k, KOW and WMH product is suddenly 75% cheaper. And the store owner says, it's not a sale. Everything is just a quarter what it was. I don't want to straw man any one arguing against the reserved list and the secondary market, but we're talking about a paradigm shift here, and why exactly is in it WoTC's best interests to take that stance, and is anyone in the company smart enough to really think that through? That would be a mental misstep. The proxies thing is really just rubbing salt in the wound, or I guess rubbing salt on the realization that if you had six thousand dollars to throw around, you'd go buy a motorcycle or whatever instead of wasting it on playing Wasteland Brainstorm 2: Duct taped together with pure force of will The Format
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Jan 13, 2016 06:40
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Avenging Dentist posted:I mean, couldn't WotC say "we're reprinting Black Lotus but you can only use it for Legacy games" or whatever? That seems like it'd be fair and would let people get the card if they really want, while collectors would probably still want the original-rear end Black Lotus. The only people who'd be hurt would be resellers, and 1) gently caress em, 2) it's not like they'd just get out of the reselling business. WotC should just harvest their tears. They've done exactly this with Modern staples (the Modern Masters sets) except they still won't do it in sufficient quantities to move the needle on the worst offenders because Aaron Forsythe will get a tarmogoyf's head in his bed if that happens or something. Point is, it's not a problem from the perspective of "Black Lotus in STANDARD??!!" efb kinda
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Jan 13, 2016 06:40
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Avenging Dentist posted:I mean, couldn't WotC say "we're reprinting Black Lotus but you can only use it for Legacy games" or whatever? That seems like it'd be fair and would let people get the card if they really want, while collectors would probably still want the original-rear end Black Lotus. The only people who'd be hurt would be resellers, and 1) gently caress em, 2) it's not like they'd just get out of the reselling business. WotC should just harvest their tears. The problem is that the very biggest resellers also run huge tournaments and provide a ton of Magic content, both in the form of videos and articles as well as organizing local tournament series. They're a part of the Magic community and a huge marketing windfall for WotC in addition to the whole part where they buy and open about half of a given sets print run. WotC is in the position where they can't legally resell cards, but are very inclined to support the companies that do.
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Jan 13, 2016 06:50
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I've never actually seen the source but people in the main thread always said (or did, when the reserved list was still worth holding a debate about) that the major retailers like SCG et al. were in favor of repealing the reserved list. It would make sense if they believe they could, say, sell more than six times as many underground seas at $25 as they could at $150, that being the price around this time. And they probably could have, but now that Underground Sea is $300, who knows
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Jan 13, 2016 06:54
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So what I'm getting from this is basically "Wizards painted themselves in a corner and no one who remembers how to get back out still works there." I'm really glad the last MtG set I cared at all about was Ice Age. (I think I had a couple sets after that but I don't really remember anything about them. Homelands or something?) I mean, I get that you can't always get the perfect system as a player but there are other games out there, many of which are probably more fun than MtG! But then we're in a thread that discusses how people still buy Games Workshop products so I guess people are just wrong and dumb sometimes.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:02
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Avenging Dentist posted:So what I'm getting from this is basically "Wizards painted themselves in a corner and no one who remembers how to get back out still works there." I'm really glad the last MtG set I cared at all about was Ice Age. The conversation is about the insane bottom of the money hole and the oozing cracking along the way down. It's not about the totality of the game. JerryLee posted:I've never actually seen the source but people in the main thread always said (or did, when the reserved list was still worth holding a debate about) that the major retailers like SCG et al. were in favor of repealing the reserved list. On the other hand, Bleiweiss has such a personality that I was moved to physically assault him so I don't think my opinions on him are anything but suspect. Both ways.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:09
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I was at a serious risk for getting back into magic but nothing I hear about what WOTC is up to nowadays makes me want back in. Also it turns out that X-Wing is really fun so never mind that anyway
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Jan 13, 2016 07:09
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:I was at a serious risk for getting back into magic but nothing I hear about what WOTC is up to nowadays makes me want back in. Also it turns out that X-Wing is really fun so never mind that anyway Play multi-player commander.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:14
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Plus there's LCGs. Player base is smaller, but poo poo, I bought a playset of everything produced for the Star Wars one for less than a Standard Magic deck.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:18
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Spiderdrake posted:Your loss honestly, very few games are anywhere near as good as MTG and there's lots of cost effective ways to enjoy it. I have actually played MtG (granted, ages ago), and I quit basically the day I discovered RPGs. I really just do not care about CCGs at all. Put it this way: I basically agree with the anti-anime sentiment in this thread, and I'd generally put "playing CCGs" well below "watching anime" on the coolness/social-acceptability scale.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:18
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Herr Tog posted:Play multi-player commander. No!
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Jan 13, 2016 07:39
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Avenging Dentist posted:I have actually played MtG (granted, ages ago), and I quit basically the day I discovered RPGs. I really just do not care about CCGs at all. Put it this way: I basically agree with the anti-anime sentiment in this thread, and I'd generally put "playing CCGs" well below "watching anime" on the coolness/social-acceptability scale. harsh but fair
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Jan 13, 2016 07:57
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I gave up on CCGs after a couple of months. Because I discovered 40k. 
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Jan 13, 2016 08:17
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I quit mtg after I got some rare zombies and tried putting together all the zombies I had into a zombie deck and then played against my friend who followed the meta and bought cards online etc and he obliterated me repeatedly with some sort of magic sword combo that made his dudes practically invulnerable
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Jan 13, 2016 09:52
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I only played MtG with friends and with decks borrowed from them. All of them still into magic have deeply conflicted feelings about their "investment" in the game.
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Jan 13, 2016 16:38
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The not-Ravenloft set was real cool. You had cards you flipped over to turn them from humans to werewolves or disguised vampires and such. White was usually represented by a mob of angry 1/1 peasant tokens with frankenstein rakes and pitchforks.
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Jan 13, 2016 16:49
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Avenging Dentist posted:I have actually played MtG (granted, ages ago), and I quit basically the day I discovered RPGs. I really just do not care about CCGs at all. Put it this way: I basically agree with the anti-anime sentiment in this thread, and I'd generally put "playing CCGs" well below "watching anime" on the coolness/social-acceptability scale. lmao if you care about coolness/social acceptability when choosing what games you play or what shows you watch
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Jan 13, 2016 16:52
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boom boom boom posted:You guys wanna see what happens you combine a RG Strike Gundam, a MG Strike Gundam, and a PG Strike Gundam? that's a hg star build strike in the middle, learn your poo poo Spiderdrake posted:Your loss honestly, very few games are anywhere near as good as MTG and there's lots of cost effective ways to enjoy it. Magic is nowhere near one of the best games out right now and was even a flawed design when it first came out. Even Richard Garfield went on to immediately make a better game (Netrunner), which you can play right now for cheaper even at the most expensive level of play.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:41
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Avenging Dentist posted:I'd generally put "playing CCGs" well below "watching anime" on the coolness/social-acceptability scale. 
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Jan 13, 2016 17:47
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Yeah play codenames or Caverna or some other eurogame instead.  Broken Loose posted:that's a hg star build strike in the middle, learn your poo poo It's funny that it took several years for a basic timing/response overhaul. I suspect, and it's a floating theory, that it only came about because SWCCG had a decent one and forced them to rethink it. And then it took several more years for ongoing patches to basic decision trees like the one that came out in 2010, 15 years after it was originally released. 
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Jan 13, 2016 18:01
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I enjoyed Magic when I was in high school, but the game just got too fiddly for me with all the new special rules every update. I haven't played in like 9 years.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:03
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Night10194 posted:I enjoyed Magic when I was in high school, but the game just got too fiddly for me with all the new special rules every update. I haven't played in like 9 years. well at least your cards might be worth something. I just checked the price of my beta time walk and holy poo poo  I'm sort of attached to my cards but on the other hand that is a lot of nerd money I could score.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:20
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My friend paid for a couple semesters of college by selling his cards and just holding a couple decks and doing magic drafts now. I might do the same, honestly. I could buy a car or a sweet tank I guess? But I'm lazy and just trade off $20-30 cards every now and then to get x wangs, models, and board games. Thinking about trading a couple bad green creatures that don't even have trample in a couple weeks for a nice airbrush compressor. 
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Jan 13, 2016 18:26
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TheChirurgeon posted:lmao if you care about coolness/social acceptability when choosing what games you play or what shows you watch turns out doing things with cool and attractive people is fun in its own right at least with anime you can watch it by yourself so you don't have to be around other anime people
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Jan 13, 2016 18:33
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Avenging Dentist posted:turns out doing things with cool and attractive people is fun in its own right Good point, Somethingawful.com poster Avenging Dentist.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:45
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Avenging Dentist posted:turns out doing things with cool and attractive people is fun in its own right I don't know what to tell you if you don't stand around making Jojo poses with your friends between sets at the gym. Also lol at people who enjoy Jojo but also don't aspire and train to look like a Jojo. E: pro-tip you gotta do the puckered lips for the full effect Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 18:47
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FFG's card games are both better and cheaper than magic, hth
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Jan 13, 2016 19:14
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Spiderdrake posted:Also Leperflesh you know stores crack 40-75% of the initial supply of boosters to sell as singles, right? So basically there is positive EV on cracking ten thousand boosters, if you can reduce friction in the system by being a retailer. Sure, because, and this is critical, stores are paying wholesale. When I said the EV of a booster is negative, I was referring to MSRP. If you can get your boosters for around half their MSRP, you're back into (just barely) positive territory. It's also often the case that FLGSes sell singles at a little bit above what you can get them for online - as a customer, you can inspect the card for condition, and maybe you just want the card right now because it's friday night and you're adjusting your deck. Anyway: as others have said, but non-Magic playing people might not have quite gotten, all of this is in the context of constructed formats. That is, formats of Magic where you build a deck from your collection of cards. It is possible, and fun, to play good fun games of magic in several ways that avoid the huge expense of constructed. One of the best ways is a draft format: you get together with a few other dudes, pool money, buy sealed packs of cards, and then open those packs and draft decks from them and immediately play a tournament using your decks. Then you get to keep your cards. Sealed-deck/draft formats sure aren't free, but you can enjoy an evenings' entertainment for approximately the same as what you'd pay to go see a movie, assuming you also bought some popcorn and a drink; and at the end of the night, you take home some cardboard that actually has a residual value on the singles market, allowing you to recover a percentage of your outlay if you're willing to go to the time and effort of selling them. There are also tournament decks, yes. And the there's playing Magic the way I played it, the only way I ever played Magic: just buy some cards and play with a few buddies, none of whom are buying singletons, in a super-casual way. My brother and I still occasionally play that way. All of my cards are from pre-2008, and the vast majority are from pre-2000, but I don't have much in the way of the super-broken old cards, and my brother enjoys making very non-optimal decks that revolve around some silly theme or another, so we just horse around that way and it's fun and good. So: this "no proxies at all" policy from Wizards sucks for everyone who wants to play constructed formats without spending ridiculous sums for individual cards. It may or may not be a policy that is in the best interests of their large reseller/store customers; same with the policy of not reprinting the majority of their back catalog of OOP cards. But Magic, as a game, does offer low-cost play options, in a way that Games Workshop does not. You and a friend can each buy $10 of Magic cards, crack open your deck, and then sit down and play Magic immediately, and that puts the game well within the reach of a 12-year-old's one-week allowance. You simply cannot do that with any Games Workshop product.
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Jan 13, 2016 19:45
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There's only one proper way to play Magic: build a cube.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:37
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Literally build a cube out of your Magic cards, using glue or maybe rubber bands. Use it as a pillow! Throw it at people you don't like! The possibilities are endless.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:39
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Thundercracker posted:There's only one proper way to play Magic: build a cube.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:44
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Wrong thread
Gareth Gobulcoque fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 20:49
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Yeah this is the wrong thread. Lotta scrolling going on.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:53
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:Wrong thread Did anybody see this before he edited it? I wanna see what's considered outside the purview of this thread
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Jan 13, 2016 20:54
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boom boom boom posted:Did anybody see this before he edited it? I wanna see what's considered outside the purview of this thread I did. Gareth Gobulcoque posted:Anime is dumb and B3 is a big gay baby.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:55
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fnordcircle posted:Good point, Somethingawful.com poster Avenging Dentist. wait are you suggesting that all of you guys aren't cool and attractive? oh shiiiiiiii  In all seriousness, the playerbase is one of the reasons I lost interest in 40k. When I played, it was with college friends, all of whom were well-groomed, funny, and overall pleasant to be around. We played at the game store about one time, and learned just how miserable that was, so we built our own table. We always dreaded CCG nights at that game store (especially the WWE CCG) since it made the whole place smell like armpits and burrito farts. Obviously, some game stores are better than others, but I've had the worst luck when meeting MtG players. It's one of the reasons why I primarily care about RPGs these days. It's usually fairly easy to get people who are even just a tiny bit nerdy to try out an RPG since the buy-in is $0 if your GM already has books and dice. Granted, part of why that works for me is that they're already my friends, but it still means I actually have access to people I'd want to play games with. It's a lot harder to convince people to drop money on tabletop wargames, so I look at those primarily as hobby projects (which is why I'll likely never play X Wangs). Even CCGs are an investment (of time and money) that only a couple of my friends would be willing to make, and since I'm not really interested in CCGs, MtG least of all, I just stay away. Back to GW, they've done one of the absolute worst jobs at managing their community in the industry. Since their plan appears to be "get 12 year old boys into the game, bleed their parents of as much money as possible until they burn out, and then find some new 12 year old boys", a lot of the player base is either 1) the aforementioned 12 year olds, or 2) irrationally loyal weirdos who practically worship GW. Neither of these types of people are ones I'd want to play with on a regular basis. GW knows there will always be new 12 year olds, so they don't bother to think about how their actions help to shape the community in a particular way. It's one of the big problems with a game being managed by a publicly-traded company: short-term gains are valued more than the long-term health of the game. The community is the single most important feature in a game for me. If a game's community isn't really good (and I can't get my personal friends to play), then I just won't play that game. There are a million other things I could spend my time on. Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 21:50
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ask about MTG, 2 pages later we're plowing Avenging Dentist for having opinions about collectible card games, damnit you nerds
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Jan 13, 2016 22:41
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What I mean is that B3 should educate everyone about anime CTGs
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Jan 13, 2016 22:42
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BULBASAUR posted:What I mean is that B3 should educate everyone about anime CTGs has someone made a anime star wars ccg yet this could be the singularity this thread needs to find the sweet release of death
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Jan 13, 2016 23:00
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I agree with Avenging Dentist, and had a similar arc of discovery and loss with 40k. I only ever played with actual friends because everyone in my local scene was terrible to be in a room with. Luckily the rise in both affordable MDF/card terrain and games that use only 3x3 or 2x2 tables means I play better games now with more regularity than I ever did with 40k.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:19
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