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Neurolimal posted:This was in response to Cnut's assertion on the subject, and SMG's reading on the Jedi passiveness towards slavery. Correct. And the point still stands.
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Jan 13, 2016 22:59
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Neurolimal posted:This was in response to Cnut's assertion on the subject, and SMG's reading on the Jedi passiveness towards slavery. Well, they're right. The Jedi are morally questionable for not doing anything about slavery, and it's questionably moral to free slaves in such a way as to avoid challenging the roots of the system, and there are no easy answers. Now, let's take a look at all this talk about slavery in the context of the next movie, where a Grand Army of the Republic is declared in response to the secession of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Interesting, no?
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Jan 13, 2016 23:02
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homullus posted:It's not about real world slavery, and "First, Do More Harm Than Good" could be the motto of late Republic Jedi. The lazersword supermen have a really powerful lazersword superman trainee, but his emotional stability is in question the moment they meet him. Rather than address his emotions and mitigate a rather large and evident source of distress for him, these guardians of peace and justice try to get him to suppress his emotions the same way they did in superman brainwashing camp. No, "Do More Harm Than Good" wasn't really their motto until the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Prior to that point, the Jedi were (rightly) reluctant to interfere in galactic affairs more than they absolutely needed to in order to maintain equilibrium between the forces of good and evil. The Jedi allow slavery to continue in the Outer Rim only because any actions they could possibly take to eliminate it would only lead to equal or greater suffering. The whole point of being a Jedi is to learn to let go of your attachments and to stop putting your own needs above the needs of everybody else. There's no objective reason to value Shmi's well-being over the well-being of whatever slave or slaves would inevitably replace her in the system. The only reason would be in service Anakin's lingering emotional attachments. The very emotional attachments that he needs to learn to let go of in order to even become a Jedi in the first place. Anakin didn't have to be a Jedi. He wanted to. He knew the price of being a Jedi was overcoming his attachment to his mother, and he agreed to that. The question isn't whether or not the Jedi should have made an exception. It's whether or not Anakin should ever have been accepted for training in the first place. If Anakin's successful training absolutely necessitated that the Jedi violate their own code of non-attachment, then that means he shouldn't have been trained. It wasn't Shmi's captivity in slavery that drove Anakin over the edge. Shmi was freed. She found a new family. By all indications, she was happy. She died because she was freed. If she was a slave, she'd still be safe in the city with Watto. It was never a matter of Shmi being free or not free. It was about Anakin's complete inability to ever let go. Shmi was never going to live forever. Sooner or later, Anakin was going to have accept that she would leave him. But Anakin was never going to be able to accept that. Things were always going to come to some sort of a head, regardless of what accommodations the Jedi made for him. The main takeaway is that the Jedi absolutely should not have trained Anakin. But if the Jedi never trained Anakin, there would never be balance in the Force! That's the central paradox of the series. There's no way to resolve it except to accept that Qui-Gon believed in him, and that was enough. You can't predict everything. Sometimes you have to live in the moment.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:03
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Vintersorg posted:"George, you can type this poo poo, but you can't say it!" You beat me to it, but I was picturing Hamill's impression of Ford saying it. 
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Jan 13, 2016 23:03
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Cnut the Great posted:No, "Do More Harm Than Good" wasn't really their motto until the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Prior to that point, the Jedi were (rightly) reluctant to interfere in galactic affairs more than they absolutely needed to in order to maintain equilibrium between the forces of good and evil. The Jedi allow slavery to continue in the Outer Rim only because any actions they could possibly take to eliminate it would only lead to equal or greater suffering. On the other hand, the outbreak of the Clone Wars was the work of the Jedi. They literally brought the clones; no clones, no Clone Wars. Also, I understand that the Jedi were trying to teach Anakin that selfless Jedi compassion -- but in doing so, where was their compassion for Anakin or his mother or the slaves or anything but the status quo? Anakin was a Jedi superweapon who was supposed to bring balance to the Force, and the Republic Jedi (unlike Luke) weren't willing to throw away their weapon. No, they snapped him up after a bit hand-wringing. I think "Do More Harm Than Good" is their motto for all the prequels.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:11
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Effectronica posted:where a Grand Army of the Republic is declared in response to the secession of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Interesting, no? Not really, no. It's a thin metaphor that becomes extremely problematic in the context of the other aspects of the reading (the civil war is a pointless conflict to allow Abraham Lincoln more power and control while killing off anyone who could oppose him. The confederate are using an army of slaves, which are ok to kill I guess, and the other side isn't fighting for their freedom. The overall lesson being that the galaxy would be better if if the Confederate felt no pressure to free their slaves). At best it's a neat bit of trivia and reference.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:15
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Neurolimal posted:Not really, no. It's a thin metaphor that becomes extremely problematic in the context of the other aspects of the reading (the civil war is a pointless conflict to allow Abraham Lincoln more power and control while killing off anyone who could oppose him. The confederate are using an army of slaves, which are ok to kill I guess, and the other side isn't fighting for their freedom. The overall lesson being that the galaxy would be better if if the Confederate felt no pressure to free their slaves). At best it's a neat bit of trivia and reference. I don't see how you get "the galaxy would be better" etc. if the droids are the slaves in the analogy. Maybe like the p-zombie dude you're biased against robots?
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Jan 13, 2016 23:17
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Cnut the Great posted:No, "Do More Harm Than Good" wasn't really their motto until the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Prior to that point, the Jedi were (rightly) reluctant to interfere in galactic affairs more than they absolutely needed to in order to maintain equilibrium between the forces of good and evil. The Jedi allow slavery to continue in the Outer Rim only because any actions they could possibly take to eliminate it would only lead to equal or greater suffering. I don't fully agree with you here. I think the Jedi's failing isn't that they trained Anakin at all, it's that they were so repressive and dogmatic that they couldn't figure out a way to help someone overcome unhealthy attachment issues without indoctrinating them from childhood. I'm sure they have their reasons for doing that, I sort of picture after the Sith "die" and go underground the Jedi deciding they had to be dogmatic and repressive to prevent any more of their number from turning into Sith, but ultimately they were in the wrong. And I know that you say The Clone Wars cartoon/George Lucas interviews make it clear that the Jedi who reached enlightenment like Qui-Gon do so by letting go of attachment and having absolute compassion for all that exists in the universe, but you can count on one hand the amount of Jedi we know to have actually achieved that. If their system worked, we'd be seeing Aayla Secura and Ki-Adi Mundi's ghosts running around. Furthermore, Obi-Wan and Yoda spent the last 20ish years of their lives watching Luke(and possibly Leia) grow up and pinning all their hopes on him/them, I'm pretty sure they had an "attachment" to him/them, it just wasn't an unhealthy one, the same way Luke and Anakin's attachment to one another saves them both. I think it's selfish, fearful, and possessive attachment that leads to the Dark Side, like the Sith's fear of dying and Anakin's fear of losing his mother and Padme.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:33
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Effectronica posted:I don't see how you get "the galaxy would be better" etc. if the droids are the slaves in the analogy. Maybe like the p-zombie dude you're biased against robots? Because if the conflict does not start and the trade dispute is resolved, Lincoln no longer has a reason to expand his position, he does not have a justification to use the clones, Obi-wan ends up not needing to go ice Bonetopick and can help Anakin instead of leaving him to go play footsie and become seduced by the Republican Side. Thus resulting in no jedi genocide, no enforcemet of imperial supremacy, and no Emperor Lincoln. Also of note is the fact that we never see any of the ineffectual trade-droids after the PT; do you think the Emperor empathetically freed them and allowed them to live their own lives, or be melted down and turned into blasters? One outcome results in two genocides, a universal apartheid, and the continuation of human and droid slavery. The other in slavery on the outer rim of the republic.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKZlCi-WnQ
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Jan 13, 2016 23:46
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Neurolimal posted:Because if the conflict does not start and the trade dispute is resolved, Lincoln no longer has a reason to expand his position, he does not have a justification to use the clones, Obi-wan ends up not needing to go ice Bonetopick and can help Anakin instead of leaving him to go play footsie and become seduced by the Republican Side. Thus resulting in no jedi genocide, no enforcemet of imperial supremacy, and no Emperor Lincoln. Let's take a look at this. The movie uses imagery from the American Civil War, in the second film in the series, after a movie that had featured slavery and ineffectual droid enemies heavily. The next movie shows the final triumph of the villain by having all the droids slaughtered. So, clearly, the conclusion is that George Lucas is pro-slavery, or else really really stupid. Alternatively, this is used to contrast with our understanding of the real American Civil War, between a war that eventually developed the dimension of ending slavery for good, where it had started out as a war for the "preservation of the Union", and a war that never developed any dimension beyond violently reuniting the Republic. In turn, we have one war where a last-minute compromise to end secession by preserving slavery forever was rejected on moral grounds, and one where the "Union" side made use of a slave army. Anakin Skywalker posted:I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the Interesting, no?
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Jan 13, 2016 23:46
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Would have been more authentic if he yelled "yippee!" They should give Kenan a role in Star Wars so he can be on something besides SNL.
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Jan 13, 2016 23:52
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Effectronica posted:Let's take a look at this. The movie uses imagery from the American Civil War, in the second film in the series, after a movie that had featured slavery and ineffectual droid enemies heavily. The next movie shows the final triumph of the villain by having all the droids slaughtered. So, clearly, the conclusion is that George Lucas is pro-slavery, or else really really stupid. Nowhere in my posts do I suggest Lucas is pro-slavery. Just because the man lacks a persecution complex doesn't mean you need to provide him one. I choose to personally believe that the metaphor is merely sloppy as a result of production issues. quote:Alternatively, this is used to contrast with our understanding of the real American Civil War, between a war that eventually developed the dimension of ending slavery for good, where it had started out as a war for the "preservation of the Union", and a war that never developed any dimension beyond violently reuniting the Republic. In turn, we have one war where a last-minute compromise to end secession by preserving slavery forever was rejected on moral grounds, and one where the "Union" side made use of a slave army. Again, not really, no. The trade confederacy made significant use of droid slavery in its machinations, and would have continued to do so war-or-not; this means, in both wars, the fight is to retain slaveholders (one universe just happens to contain more than one human-intelligence species) and their lands. Additionally, it is not certain that the clones are slaves; they are enthusiastic for their role (you could argue that they are programmed this way, but that suggests droid programmers are equally maleficient for creating droid personalities that befriend organic races. It also does not put any blood on the republic, because the clones were created outside their approval; they did not create a war caste), they happily develop friendships with those you believe are their slaveholders (Obi-Wan and the Clone Commander), and we are never provided details on whether or not clones retain all republican rights (since Jango did, it could easily be argued that the millions of jangos are also republicans). So, unless you believe clones are inherently mindless chained murder tools (racist), and that R2 (artoo) is a slave for being programmed to help the Skywalker family, it stands to reason that no, the russian immigrants are not slaves. So, again, the metaphor suggests that the Civil War wad a pointless endeavour which allowed a tyrant to gain power and create more discrimination, ergo status quo slavery good. In my personal reading I do not believe this to be an intentional reading, but rather that the script was not fully realized in a coherent fashion.
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Jan 14, 2016 00:21
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turtlecrunch posted:Would have been more authentic if he yelled "yippee!" The bigger Finn hypothesis
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Jan 14, 2016 00:28
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Neurolimal posted:Nowhere in my posts do I suggest Lucas is pro-slavery. Just because the man lacks a persecution complex doesn't mean you need to provide him one. I choose to personally believe that the metaphor is merely sloppy as a result of production issues. The clones don't have a choice as to whether to fight or not, buddy. Yet another guy who reveals their moral incompetence when confronted with sci-fi possibilities. So leaving that aside, leaving aside your polite way of saying "hurr adurr Lucas stupid duhh", leaving aside my childish laughter at "Civil War wad", what we have here is failure to communicate. A failure to understand contrasting on your part, because when I said "contrast" you said the exact same thing as in your last post. We also have the interesting fanfic where the war was about droid slavery, but it's kinda irrelevant because in the text we don't see any sign that droids would be or were legally freed over the course of the war, nor that the war was about a perceived droid liberation effort. Your move.
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Jan 14, 2016 00:39
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How did I never notice on all those episodes of Girls that Adam Driver's face has Jim Varney proportions?
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Jan 14, 2016 00:52
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Jack Gladney posted:How did I never notice on all those episodes of Girls that Adam Driver's face has Jim Varney proportions? Dr. Otto antagonist character confirmed for Episode VIII.
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Jan 14, 2016 00:53
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Effectronica posted:The clones don't have a choice as to whether to fight or not, buddy. Yet another guy who reveals their moral incompetence when confronted with sci-fi possibilities. So if pre-programmed emotions and favor count as slavery, how will droid slavery ever end? Who will program total neutrality into every droid? If the republic is bad for utilizing already-existent clones left to drip in plastic pods, what does that say about The North for utilizing slaves with the promise of freedom? Both are enslaved in some form, end up fighting a slaveholding confederacy, and are likely to be freed by the end of the war (before Evil Space Lincoln is revealed). quote:So leaving that aside, leaving aside your polite way of saying "hurr adurr Lucas stupid duhh" It reflects poorly on PT fans to have such hostile misinterpretations and imaginary persecution so soon after another stereotypes those who dont consider the PT movies good. I'd ask that you please show as much respect for alternative readings as Cnut has. quote:We also have the interesting fanfic where the war was about droid slavery, but it's kinda irrelevant because in the text we don't see any sign that droids would be or were legally freed over the course of the war It's pretty absurd, in a thread of many varied readings, to suggest that the reading of the war that references the civil war and features an enslaved race and a nation attempting to self-govern due to "trade disputes" (low sales due to embargoes on slave goods? the sale of droids themselves? Weird hats?) as being about slavery instead of Trade Rights, is where you draw the line on what's reading and what's fanfic. quote:nor that the war was about a perceived droid liberation effort. Your move. Did they need to spell it out, vocally, by a booming narrator, echoing throughout every scene, for you to understand? "Your move" suggests that this is a game, that neither of us believe our personal readings and are engaged in a disingenuous dispute for Correctness Points. I will make quite clear, to make sure you understand: I believe the words what I write and wrote, and am not pulling your legs Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 00:54
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And to head off the belief before it appears: "they didnt start the clone project, but they could have stopped producing them": why do you (the reader) support sterilizing a "violent and uncivilized" race?
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Jan 14, 2016 00:57
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Jack Gladney posted:How did I never notice on all those episodes of Girls that Adam Driver's face has Jim Varney proportions? stupid sexy Ernest
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Jan 14, 2016 00:59
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Do I want to ask what happened to the clones after the war, or will I get more space otter fistfights and three-eyed clone marriages to emancipated robots?
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Jan 14, 2016 01:00
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Jack Gladney posted:Do I want to ask what happened to the clones after the war, or will I get more space otter fistfights and three-eyed clone marriages to emancipated robots? Most of them were "retired" and slowly phased out, so that by the time ANH rolls around there are practically zero clones left.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:02
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Beeez posted:For a guy who "likes the prequels", you are sure obsessed with proving that they're "bad" and that anyone who has any sort of appreciation or analysis of them beyond knee-jerk hate responses and nerdy nitpickery are insane, stupid, or lying. I like them but I can also admit they're not great movies. I like a lot of movies that can admit just aren't very good but are appealing for me and entertaining to me nonetheless. I just thought it was funny that the kid who was in them, who is now kind of a hosed up adult, has also said that Lucas didn't do such a great job with them. I didn't say I agreed with him 100%. Also, to clarify your vitriolic response to some of my posting. I haven't made the claim that people liking these movies or talking about things they like are insane, stupid, or lying. I did say that SMG's posting is an elaborate gimmick with the intent of trolling Star Wars fans - "they are good movies that are making fun of you", "Star Wars fans don't like Star Wars." It's funny that his posting gets a rise out of people, and that he has a nice little cult of followers here, but I think it's a bit silly if the content of his posts are one of the reasons you enjoy the PT. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 01:05
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Basebf555 posted:The bullying I'm sure had nothing to do with the quality of the movie, he was going to get mercilessly taunted no matter what. He was a famous kid and the other kids were just jealous. No, my friend, Star Wars fans personally tracked him down and bullied him since he was the single point of failure for all of Star Wars, because Star Wars fans are evil and don't like anything about Star Wars, least of all a kid from one movie - he must be destroyed.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:10
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KaptainKrunk posted:Most of them were "retired" and slowly phased out, so that by the time ANH rolls around there are practically zero clones left. They were "programmed" to age faster than normal humans. There's a pretty good episode of Rebels with some clone troopers in it that explains a little of what happened to them.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:11
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Edit: was already posted.
Huzanko fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 01:12
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Noam Chomsky posted:I like them but I can also admit they're not great movies. I like a lot of movies that can admit just aren't very good but are appealing for me and entertaining to me nonetheless. I didn't mean to sound vitriolic, I just thought the way I was saying it was funny. But as I'm not a follower of SMG, fair enough.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:21
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spoilers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlWiq84epH4
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Jan 14, 2016 01:24
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I am just baffled that we have prequel apologists.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:25
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In the context of the Civil War references, "there are heroes on both sides" stated as fact by the narrating text becomes a much more odious phrase
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Jan 14, 2016 01:28
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Judakel posted:I am just baffled that we have prequel apologists. What's so baffling? They're flawed but well-made films. Certainly better than most of if not all of the Marvel movies as well as the Hobbit trilogy. Liking them or not liking them is up to you, but the films have a lot of objectively good qualities.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:30
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KaptainKrunk posted:What's so baffling? They're flawed but well-made films. Certainly better than most of if not all of the Marvel movies as well as the Hobbit trilogy. They are not well-written or well-structured films. The characters are flat and, at times, their actions nonsensical. Therefore, they cannot be well-made films. I am not impressed by production values. By the way, the CGI has aged horribly.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:33
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Judakel posted:They are not well-written or well-structured films. The characters are flat and, at times, their actions nonsensical. Therefore, they cannot be well-made films. I am not impressed by production values. That's a lot of things. What do you mean by "well-structured" and how do the Prequels fail to be so?
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Jan 14, 2016 01:36
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What does everyone think of Kylo Ren channeling Bane? Interesting considering Bane is himself influenced by Vader. I can easily imagine him saying "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask."
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Jan 14, 2016 01:39
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I don't mind prequel apologia at all because there is interesting stuff in the prequels and it's nice to see it on display. It only becomes tedious when it's less apologia and more overreaching lectures like "You only disliked the prequels 'cuz you didn't have an open mind" or "Lucas did everything right and all the nerds are just too blind to see it." That' just SMG-style shittery, and no one needs that. Star Wars doesn't deserve that. 
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Jan 14, 2016 01:40
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Judakel posted:I am just baffled that we have prequel apologists. Honestly there's some amazing stuff in all three films, which make the failings all the more tragic - this is true of the OT as well but the OT was a little more restrained so its flaws weren't as immediately apparent.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:42
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Basebf555 posted:The bullying I'm sure had nothing to do with the quality of the movie, he was going to get mercilessly taunted no matter what. He was a famous kid and the other kids were just jealous.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:47
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Effectronica posted:Yet another guy who reveals their moral incompetence when confronted with sci-fi possibilities. Why privilege possibly-mindless killing machines over the definitely-alive targets of their aggression? Recall that the context of last night's discussion re: droid consciousness was whether child-soldier Anakin was wrong to destroy droids in the defense of Naboo.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:51
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KaptainKrunk posted:That's a lot of things. What do you mean by "well-structured" and how do the Prequels fail to be so? Well-structured means that scenes flow well together and make sense not only in relation to one another, but in their placement. The opening to The Phantom Menace is horrendous, for example. You are completely lost as to what is happening in that scene; you have no better understanding of who they are as characters, and the actions that bring about the battle make no sense. It is just an excuse for a lightsaber battle in the opening scene. Usually an opening scene tells you something about the characters, or central conflict, that is integral to how you view them/it.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:52
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Noam Chomsky posted:Honestly there's some amazing stuff in all three films, which make the failings all the more tragic - this is true of the OT as well but the OT was a little more restrained so its flaws weren't as immediately apparent. The failings are due to general incompetence in storytelling, though. How tragic can it be? Star Wars is a pretty basic story that really does not need elaboration and expansion. However, if you are going to elaborate on it, you have to be very incompetent to miss.
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Jan 14, 2016 01:59
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