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Wiggles Von Huggins posted:I'm starting to NOT LIKE these Nazi guys everyone is posting about! It really weirds me out that there was this dude who was loving sewing people together, and still there are people who are like "yknow the nazis had some good ideas"
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Jan 14, 2016 20:26
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Geniasis posted:It really weirds me out that there was this dude who was loving sewing people together, and still there are people who are like "yknow the nazis had some good ideas" TBF American doctors have done some pretty despicable poo poo in the name of science as well. But yeah, the Nazis weren't great role models.
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Jan 14, 2016 20:29
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Vulpes posted:But yeah, the Nazis weren't great role models. Man, the more I hear about these guys the less I like them.
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Jan 14, 2016 20:33
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Hitler: History's rudest jerk?
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Jan 14, 2016 20:35
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Wiggles Von Huggins posted:I'm starting to NOT LIKE these Nazi guys everyone is posting about! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRPmjlqBFXQ
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Jan 14, 2016 20:38
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Vulpes posted:TBF American doctors have done some pretty despicable poo poo in the name of science as well. But yeah, the Nazis weren't great role models. Yeah, but we at least pretend to disapprove that sort of behavior.
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Jan 14, 2016 20:45
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Geniasis posted:It really weirds me out that there was this dude who was loving sewing people together, and still there are people who are like "yknow the nazis had some good ideas" I'm told there was a lot of data taken out of the concentration camp laboratories that was invaluable to medical science, but nobody could get it any other way because it required being a monster.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:47
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Jedit posted:I'm told there was a lot of data taken out of the concentration camp laboratories that was invaluable to medical science, but nobody could get it any other way because it required being a monster. I think that might actually be the Japanese murder camps. Could be both of them though.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:50
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Jedit posted:I'm told there was a lot of data taken out of the concentration camp laboratories that was invaluable to medical science, but nobody could get it any other way because it required being a monster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip "Hey, uh, if you wanna give us some of that research we'll overlook the whole death camp thing."
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Jan 14, 2016 21:52
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Jedit posted:I'm told there was a lot of data taken out of the concentration camp laboratories that was invaluable to medical science, but nobody could get it any other way because it required being a monster. I think the only research that's ever been useful was some on hypothermia, the rest of it was either shittily run and didn't prove anything, or established such revolutionary facts as surgery without anaesthetic is agonising.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:59
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Jedit posted:I'm told there was a lot of data taken out of the concentration camp laboratories that was invaluable to medical science, but nobody could get it any other way because it required being a monster. That issue has always been interesting to me, because while I can see the argument that using the data in some way legitimizes what was done, on the other hand none of what happened can be undone and if any of that information can be used to save lives, isn't it worth it to try and turn what was wickedly done to some good end? Anyway, don't trust Big Pharma is what I'm trying to say.
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Jan 14, 2016 22:07
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Actually, most of those "medical" tests were just stupid and bizarre stuff like trying to sew twins together. They didn't produce much useful data in the end.
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Jan 14, 2016 22:22
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The scary and unnerving part to me is Mengele went on to live with almost no consequences for his actions until he stroked out swimming off the coast of a resort in Argentina, in loving 1978. "Rolf, who had not seen his father since the ski holiday in 1956, visited him there in 1977 and found an unrepentant Nazi who claimed he had never personally harmed anyone and had only done his duty."
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Jan 14, 2016 22:37
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ro5s posted:I think the only research that's ever been useful was some on hypothermia, the rest of it was either shittily run and didn't prove anything, or established such revolutionary facts as surgery without anaesthetic is agonising. IIRC there is some data on the elasticity of human skin that was pretty useful too. Geniasis posted:That issue has always been interesting to me, because while I can see the argument that using the data in some way legitimizes what was done, on the other hand none of what happened can be undone and if any of that information can be used to save lives, isn't it worth it to try and turn what was wickedly done to some good end? Yeah this is an interesting argument that came up in my ethics class. The consensus is basically condemn the people who did it and punish them to the fullest extent of the law, but if some poor sap needs medical help and the data will save them use it, because using the data now saves a life/prevents suffering and doesn't cause anyone any more undue suffering. Don't think of it as legitimizing it, think of it as trying to make something good happen from the sacrifices of the people who were murdered, but really if you withhold medical treatment that is not somehow causing someone else harm for ethical reasons, you're a bad lovely doctor. See also, doctors who won't provide care for religious reasons.
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Jan 14, 2016 22:46
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I don't really see it as different from using information gathered from treating survivors of torture or trauma, or from using neurological data gathered from people who've suffered brain injuries. Something terrible happened to people, or was done to them, and as a side effect, valuable medical information is now available. Of course we should use that information.
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Jan 14, 2016 23:25
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We had a discussion about it in a school debate class about whether information gathered from the experiments should be used. It was quite a lively debate. AnonSpore posted:So The Human Centipede was a documentary huh If there was anyone who would do something like that in real life it would be Joseph loving Mengele. Rochallor posted:Man, the more I hear about these guys the less I like them. Maybe we are the villains of this story.
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Jan 14, 2016 23:44
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From what I've read, we might have looked at the data gathered in concentration camp experiments, but it was all pretty much useless scientifically, due to the Nazis not really having any control groups or system of documenting/comparing results to speak of, a hugely obvious level of researcher bias, and the fact that their test subjects were all starving and probably had existing illnesses from, you know, being in a concentration camp. Which actually made me feel better. I like knowing that Nazis were, are, and will always be loving useless bastards.
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Jan 14, 2016 23:55
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shinymodem posted:The scary and unnerving part to me is Mengele went on to live with almost no consequences for his actions until he stroked out swimming off the coast of a resort in Argentina, in loving 1978. Mengele is the main example I've given in the past to the (few) non-religious people I know who actually believe in some sort of karma system
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Jan 14, 2016 23:58
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Here's something else creepy. It's a book excerpt in which a set of twins who survived Mengele talk about him, and one of the things they bring up is how handsome he was.quote:I ask Pearl to describe Mengele, and her eyes light up. “He was the most handsomest—” http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/10/28/dr-mengeles-twins.html
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Jan 15, 2016 01:05
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Aesop Poprock posted:Mengele is the main example I've given in the past to the (few) non-religious people I know who actually believe in some sort of karma system Maybe I'm misinterpreting the classical definition of Karma but I feel like Mengele never receiving any kind of comeuppance really doesn't disprove it? Like, he can still be reincarnated as a dung beetle or something and have a succession of lovely, terrible lives after that.
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Jan 15, 2016 01:12
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Travis343 posted:Maybe I'm misinterpreting the classical definition of Karma but I feel like Mengele never receiving any kind of comeuppance really doesn't disprove it? Like, he can still be reincarnated as a dung beetle or something and have a succession of lovely, terrible lives after that. The word he is looking for is kismet.
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Jan 15, 2016 01:23
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ro5s posted:I think the only research that's ever been useful was some on hypothermia, the rest of it was either shittily run and didn't prove anything, or established such revolutionary facts as surgery without anaesthetic is agonising. Yeah I remember reading about this and being struck by how similar it was to like... kids torturing their Barbie dolls or something, putting them in the microwave, except with actual people as the victims. Like the perpetrators were somehow bored with them, like they couldn't think of anything to do except challenge themselves to degrade and dehumanize them EVEN FURTHER. There's a deep-seated cruelty that seems always to come out whenever one person has absolute power over the lives of others.
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Jan 15, 2016 02:40
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Degenerate Star posted:“He should have been an actor or something and not killed Jews." The art of understatement.
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Jan 15, 2016 04:54
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Travis343 posted:Maybe I'm misinterpreting the classical definition of Karma but I feel like Mengele never receiving any kind of comeuppance really doesn't disprove it? Like, he can still be reincarnated as a dung beetle or something and have a succession of lovely, terrible lives after that. That's why I specified non-religious, karma when used in the "what goes around comes around" kind of way most people use it as
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Jan 15, 2016 07:55
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Travis343 posted:Maybe I'm misinterpreting the classical definition of Karma but I feel like Mengele never receiving any kind of comeuppance really doesn't disprove it? Like, he can still be reincarnated as a dung beetle or something and have a succession of lovely, terrible lives after that. I think it's more that the average American using the word karma has no real comprehension of what it is.
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Jan 15, 2016 14:32
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Can anyone provides some good episodes of True Murder? I'm kind of picking them at random and the content varies wildly. The best was Dan talking about his own book.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:06
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Aesop Poprock posted:Mengele is the main example I've given in the past to the (few) non-religious people I know who actually believe in some sort of karma system Pol Pot, leader of the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, died peacefully in his sleep in 1998, right before he was going to go to trial by an international tribunal. An article about Security Prison 21 (or S-21), now known as the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum. Out of at least 17,000 prisoners only 12 survived in a span of only four years (1975 to 1979).
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Jan 15, 2016 22:19
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bean_shadow posted:Pol Pot, leader of the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, died peacefully in his sleep in 1998, right before he was going to go to trial by an international tribunal. An article about Security Prison 21 (or S-21), now known as the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum. Out of at least 17,000 prisoners only 12 survived in a span of only four years (1975 to 1979). I remember reading an article a few years ago about Pot's final days. The article went into a bit of detail about how, even though most of the country knew what he did and what an evil bastard he was, there were still those that thought he was a good leader and looked after him and treated him well. You see the same stuff going on in the Balkans where there are people that should probably be arrested but are living in towns and cities like some every day nobody, or worse, as some kind of war hero.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:40
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Hell, a giant gold(painted) statue of Chairman Mao was just erected in one of the areas most affected by famine. It came down after a wave of attention and ridicule, but that it happened at all is pretty weird.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:48
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Doctor_Acula posted:Can anyone provides some good episodes of True Murder? I'm kind of picking them at random and the content varies wildly. The best was Dan talking about his own book.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:10
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Doctor_Acula posted:Can anyone provides some good episodes of True Murder? I'm kind of picking them at random and the content varies wildly. The best was Dan talking about his own book. I liked the one where Steve Jackson was talking about No Stone Unturned. The audio quality of the interviews can ruin otherwise good eps IMO.
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Jan 16, 2016 04:28
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Madkal posted:I remember reading an article a few years ago about Pot's final days. The article went into a bit of detail about how, even though most of the country knew what he did and what an evil bastard he was, there were still those that thought he was a good leader and looked after him and treated him well. There are a large percentage of people in Russia who think that Joseph Stalin wasn't that bad. Stalin ended up having a stroke but wasn't found for quite a few hours later because he had given people instructions to not disturb him in the morning. Finally in the evening, after waiting all day, someone went in to check on him and he was on the ground besides his bed covered in stale urine, unable to talk. He died a few hours later. It is thought that he had been planning a new purge. What with World War I (1.7 million), Stalin's rule (half a million to a million from purges and around 5-10 million from the famine caused by his policies) and World War II (roughly 20-26 million both military and civilian) it's amazing there were any Russians left.
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Jan 16, 2016 16:04
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Countries love their old dead dictators because said dictator killed everyone who didn't like him.
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Jan 17, 2016 11:42
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BattleMaster posted:Countries love their old dead dictators because said dictator killed everyone who didn't like him. Also some of those people are just blindly nationalistic and refuse to admit it even if deep down they know their leaders were evil trash
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Jan 17, 2016 11:50
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BattleMaster posted:Countries love their old dead dictators because said dictator killed everyone who didn't like him. They make the trains run on time. People justify past cooperation with regimes by only remembering how well things worked, not how many people disappeared. What chills me the most were the killing of defectives by the Nazis. Anyone could be called genetically defective.
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Jan 17, 2016 14:26
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Aesop Poprock posted:Also some of those people are just blindly nationalistic and refuse to admit it even if deep down they know their leaders were evil trash America still loves Andrew Jackson.
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Jan 17, 2016 17:27
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Terrible Opinions posted:America still loves Andrew Jackson. I was glad to hear there was a movement to put a woman on currency, but then found out they were kicking off Hamilton and not Jackson and was pissed. Yeah, keep the garbage human being president, who also destroyed the BUS, on currency but not the first Treasurer and all around badass. Okay.
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Jan 17, 2016 19:39
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Via the crazy political email thread: Christian Army veteran 'killed his formerly Muslim wife and five-year-old daughter execution style before writing in Arabic on the walls with their blood and committing suicide' 
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Jan 17, 2016 19:42
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Terrible Opinions posted:America still loves Andrew Jackson.
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Jan 17, 2016 20:42
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:My presidential history is rusty; what's so bad about Andrew Jackson? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act
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Jan 17, 2016 20:51
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