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No emptyquotes here!
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Jan 15, 2016 23:07
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Jan 15, 2016 23:13
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I know that this has become a pretty common way of framing the depravity of American foreign policy, but it's massively unfair to the actual drone pilots. Those guys aren't evil; they are fully aware of the moral implications of what they do. They know that they are killing people and that many of them don't deserve it. Then they have to go home and have dinner with their families like it was a normal day in the office. It fucks them up, and while it's obviously preferable to getting blown up by a drone, and probably preferable to a standard deployment, they didn't write the god drat policy. They are just some stiffs who joined the military out of high school and ended up with this job because some test showed they had a proficiency for it. http://www.salon.com/2015/03/06/a_chilling_new_post_traumatic_stress_disorder_why_drone_pilots_are_quitting_in_record_numbers_partner/ Even if you want to say "just following orders" isn't a good moral defense, which is a very fair argument, it's disingenuous to act like these guys are treating it like it's some fun video game. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 23:13
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Mellow Seas posted:I know that this has become a pretty common way of framing the depravity of American foreign policy, but it's massively unfair to the actual drone pilots. Those guys aren't evil; they are fully aware of the moral implications of what they do. They know that they are killing people and that many of them don't deserve it. Then they have to go home and have dinner with their families like it was a normal day in the office. It fucks them up, and while it's obviously preferable to getting blown up by a drone, and probably preferable to a standard deployment, they didn't write the god drat policy. They are just some stiffs who joined the military out of high school and ended up with this job because some test showed they had a proficiency for it. I'm so mad at the unfair way murderers are portrayed.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:44
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Bass Bottles posted:Also, missed opportunity not making Rubio one of the ears. I actually think it's a nice touch that he ordered the GOP candidates from most centrist to most conservative, with Kasich on the elephant's left side and Trump on its far right side (same with the donkey -- note that Bernie is on its left and Hillary is on its right)
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Jan 15, 2016 23:50
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Shugojin posted:Ugh 
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Jan 15, 2016 23:51
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Starshark posted:I'm so mad at the unfair way murderers are portrayed. Sure, just ignore every nuance and caveat I put in my post about this complicated issue and make a pithy response to show you're a true hero champion of Team Left. Do you think all troops are murderers? Even the ones that don't kill people simply haven't because nobody asked them to. If they were asked, they would be required to, and they would. e: the whole post vvvv that was the original post, which I stand by but thought it could be more eloquent Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 23:52
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Mellow Seas posted:Oh, go gently caress yourself. Do you think all of TEH TROOPS are murderers or just the ones you can make Doritos jokes about? I know, right? Sure they kill people for no reason but they're not loving cavalier about it.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:58
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Starshark posted:I know, right? Sure they kill people for no reason but they're not loving cavalier about it. Yeah gently caress soldiers following orders. They're killers and not just cogs in a machine they have no control over.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:59
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I have naught but the deepest sympathy for the unfortunate draftees who must man the drone stations under pain of death. Surely nobody would volunteer for such butchery.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:07
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LF is back! 
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Jan 16, 2016 00:09
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ThePeavstenator posted:Yeah gently caress soldiers following orders. They're killers and not just cogs in a machine they have no control over. Support are troops, right?
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Jan 16, 2016 00:10
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I'm not the one trying to make a subject that has been viewed as morally complex throughout all of human history into a binary where I'm basically best buddies with Hitler, now. I didn't say I love drone pilots, and I didn't say that they're heroes, or even that they're necessarily blameless. If you read my actual post, in either iteration. I'm just, you know, not being a leftist reactionary shithead acting like other suffering human beings are having the time of their lives because of a political disagreement. You should probably get a smugger avatar because I think somehow Turnbull isn't quite enough. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 00:11
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I'm not a zealous supporter of troops but I'm going to blame people in power before I blame the guy at the bottom of the totem pole. You gonna bitch out a Wal-Mart cashier for not being cherry enough and making Wal-Mart suck or are you going to place the blame on corporate for creating a lovely work environment with low pay?
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Jan 16, 2016 00:13
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ThePeavstenator posted:I'm not a zealous supporter of troops but I'm going to blame people in power before I blame the guy at the bottom of the totem pole. You gonna bitch out a Wal-Mart cashier for not being cherry enough and making Wal-Mart suck or are you going to place the blame on corporate for creating a lovely work environment with low pay? I don't know - is the cashier killing anyone? Mellow Seas posted:I'm not the one trying to make a subject that has been viewed as morally complex throughout all of human history into a binary where I'm basically best buddies with Hitler, now. I didn't say I love drone pilots, and I didn't say that they're heroes, or even that they're necessarily blameless. If you read my actual post, in either iteration. I'm just, you know, not being a leftist reactionary shithead acting like other suffering human beings are having the time of their lives because of a political disagreement. God help us if we act like leftist reactionary shitheads, that's just the worst. I'm trying to be nuanced here. You know where you can usually find the truth, right?
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Jan 16, 2016 00:15
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I suppose that depends on how far along the Walmart cashier is on their monthly "Weddings Blown Up" quota. An interesting moral dilemma, thank you forums poster ThePeavstenator.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:16
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Starshark posted:I don't know - is the cashier killing anyone? By this logic any soldier that ever participated in combat is a murderer
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Jan 16, 2016 00:16
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Like maybe the issue at hand here isn't that drone pilots exist it's that we have a bad policy on remote, imprecise drone strikes based on iffy intel.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:17
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ThePeavstenator posted:By this logic any soldier that ever participated in combat is a murderer Don't play this game please.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:18
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Starshark posted:I don't know - is the cashier killing anyone? Sure, by participating in the Wal-Mart system they're allowing Wal-Mart to continue functioning as an entity and muscle other businesses out of the area and treat their employees like slaves. I'm sure this at the very least has some negative health effects on those people. If every cashier just didn't do their job Wal-Mart wouldn't be able to expand so rapidly at the very least. I mean this is retarded logic that focuses on hating the most visible face of the problem rather than the people actually making choices that have power in the system, but it's pretty well the same as yours here. Like, you're doing the equivalent of shouting "gently caress YOU" at a telemarketer
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Jan 16, 2016 00:18
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Dazzling Addar posted:I have naught but the deepest sympathy for the unfortunate draftees who must man the drone stations under pain of death. Surely nobody would volunteer for such butchery. Right, they're not required to be there, which is why a whole lot of them quit with PTSD-like symptoms after the horror of what they're doing gets to them. dijon du jour fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 00:22
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Sure, by participating in the Wal-Mart system they're allowing Wal-Mart to continue functioning as an entity and muscle other businesses out of the area and treat their employees like slaves. I'm sure this at the very least has some negative health effects on those people. If every cashier just didn't do their job Wal-Mart wouldn't be able to expand so rapidly at the very least. I think the game changes when death is involved. When it comes to deciding whether or not to kill someone, especially if that killing serves no other purpose other than the projection of US power, you have a choice a bit different to the one that faces someone deciding whether to be a telemarketer or not.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:23
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This is why LF was closed
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Jan 16, 2016 00:25
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Tater Love 
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Mellow Seas posted:I'm not the one trying to make a subject that has been viewed as morally complex throughout all of human history into a binary where I'm basically best buddies with Hitler, now. I didn't say I love drone pilots, and I didn't say that they're heroes, or even that they're necessarily blameless. If you read my actual post, in either iteration. I'm just, you know, not being a leftist reactionary shithead acting like other suffering human beings are having the time of their lives because of a political disagreement. Well poo poo, if I can't view people in simplistic, ego-massaging us v. Them moral binaries, how am I supposed to feel self-righteously superior that I never made the choices that I never had to make in my life situation?
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Jan 16, 2016 00:25
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dijon du jour posted:Right, they're not required to be there, which is why a whole lot of them quit with PTSD-like symptoms after the horror of what they're doing gets to them. How awful! Whoever impressed them into such ghastly service should be held to account for their actions.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:25
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Starshark posted:I think the game changes when death is involved. When it comes to deciding whether or not to kill someone, especially if that killing serves no other purpose other than the projection of US power, you have a choice a bit different to the one that faces someone deciding whether to be a telemarketer or not. I would again argue that groups like walmart represent a real and harmful damage to a community that has at the very least really hosed up a lot of perfectly innocent people, so yea again if literally every soldier is a gleeful murderer then every cashier is chuckling to themselves about the local farmer's market shutting down or whatever. If you want to take the literal easiest, least effort required, form of anger possible rock on, but I guess have fun yelling at a dude who, going by some of the latest studies, probably agrees he should kill himself because of the US' violent imperialism.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:38
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Dazzling Addar posted:How awful! Whoever impressed them into such ghastly service should be held to account for their actions. Doubtless most of them are there voluntarily, but unethical recruiting practices have been a repeated problem for the military.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:54
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Dazzling Addar posted:How awful! Whoever impressed them into such ghastly service should be held to account for their actions. lol if you don't think a huge number of soldiers are manipulated into joining. That's just precious. 
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Jan 16, 2016 01:01
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Who What Now posted:lol if you don't think a huge number of soldiers are manipulated into joining. That's just precious. Uh did the guy who went to your high school and mainly talked to the kids on free lunch programs and poo poo about the military NOT say 'look yea you could well be killing people, you could be killing people miles away that you never even see but only later hear are completely innocent civilians, if you have a problem with that when it comes maybe you can see a shrink that'll tell you to buck up until you get home and, hey maybe then you can get some actual help, or kill yourself, either way really you're not our issue'?
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Jan 16, 2016 01:07
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I love that political cartoons portray abortionists as roving gangs of baby killers. They are really going out there and hunting fetuses down.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:11
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Dazzling Addar posted:How awful! Whoever impressed them into such ghastly service should be held to account for their actions. The military recruits tons of people by manipulating them with propaganda when they are young adults. Those people aren't faultless but pretending everyone that joins the military wants to just mindlessly kill people for the sake of it doesn't help. You should draw more issue with the policies that put these kind of programs in place and the people that are intentionally trying to get high school students to jump into the military by misleading them.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:19
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Dazzling Addar posted:I suppose that depends on how far along the Walmart cashier is on their monthly "Weddings Blown Up" quota. An interesting moral dilemma, thank you forums poster ThePeavstenator.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:34
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Yeah, military recruiting is quite misleading. They always talk about camaraderie and bettering yourself and how it's very unlikely you'll ever actually be deployed... yeah right.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:47
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Keiya posted:Yeah, military recruiting is quite misleading. They always talk about camaraderie and bettering yourself and how it's very unlikely you'll ever actually be deployed... yeah right. I knew alot of people who joined after 9/11 to fight the terrorists, but we were all on a submarine fighting the cold war still, so in this case the terrorist won.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:54
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"Perhaps we should look at this situation with nuance, it is very complex after all." "Shut up loving fascist pig!" Exactly the high level of discourse I expect around here, keep up the good work! 
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Jan 16, 2016 01:56
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Drones are a thing where the theory and the reality don't line up. In theory, you should be able to blow up the bad guys from a distance, no boots on the ground, and civillans are spared. In pratice, that doesn't happen, and a lot of innocent people get killed.Drone policy needs to be re-thought to be more ethical and save lives, but thiking that drone pilots run to their desks every morning going "wooo! yeah! Time to kill me some a-rabs, boys!" is silly. America has gotten too dependant on drones, they need to make sure surgical strikes are, well, surgical, not "hm, the terrorist is here, I'm sure we can miss the wedding party if we're careful" strikes.
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Jan 16, 2016 02:00
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Starshark posted:I know, right? Sure they kill people for no reason but they're not loving cavalier about it. Get off your high horse Todd Roll.
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Jan 16, 2016 02:00
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OldMemes posted:America has gotten too dependant on drones, they need to make sure surgical strikes are, well, surgical, not "hm, the terrorist is here, I'm sure we can miss the wedding party if we're careful" strikes. So we should spend a poo poo-load of money to improve our modern weaponry in order to make drone strikes really precise? I like the sound of this.
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Jan 16, 2016 02:07
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Jan 16, 2016 02:15
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A real leader would have made those sailor fight to the death for no reason! 
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Jan 16, 2016 02:18
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