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Is it a bad idea to have larger (large or huge) ship alone without smaller ship support, for example a decimator? (Context: This is for a game set on a star wars risk board , so there's no set point limit matches (except there is a 600 point maximum limit), battles are just between the two forces in a single area).
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Jan 16, 2016 08:08
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| # ? May 31, 2024 20:08 |
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Red Hood posted:Thanks for the heads up about this. Almost all of the time I've seen Poe it's been with PtL, and I've never faced Corran I'll have to keep an eye out for that and fly extra casual I guess. When Poe first came out in the TFA starter everyone was initially drawn to equipping him with BB-8 and Push the Limit. Using that combo you can barrel roll after revealing a green maneuver, use that barrel roll action to trigger PtL for a second action and a stress, then your green move kicks in and you clear the stress, and then you get to take a third action. Barrel roll, boost, then focus (or barrel roll, focus, then boost). And that's pretty fun! But it also suffers a bit from being predictable since the T70's pool of green maneuvers is limited and at PS8 even an extremely maneuverable X-Wing has trouble dealing with Soontir Fel and Darth Vader (Vader has recently gotten a shot in the arm courtesy of some TIE Advanced specific upgrades that came out in the Imperial Raider set, so he's very popular at the moment). So a lot of folks have instead shifted to kitting Poe out with Veteran Instincts (putting him at PS10) and R5-P9 which lets you spend an unused focus at the end of combat to regain a shield. And since Poe wants to hang onto a focus for as long as possible I'm sure you can see where this is going. Corran Horn, meanwhile, is a pure motherfucker. There is one Corran Horn build, and it's: -Corran Horn (that motherfucker) -R2-D2 (that other motherfucker) -Engine Upgrade -Fire Control System -Veteran Instincts So you have a PS10 speedy ship with both boost and barrel roll. It regenerates a shield every time it takes a green maneuver. Every time it shoots at a ship it gets to take a free target lock on them immediately afterwards. And whenever it feels like it, it can shoot twice in one fight at the cost of skipping its attack on the next turn. Basically the way you run Corran is you use green maneuvers + boost and/or barrel roll whenever you're hurt to regen shields, while FCS means you trade one turn of sub-optimal shooting for a free target lock that persists as long as you keep shooting at the same ship. You swing Corran in for a flanking shot, use his ability to double-tap someone (and that second shot, remember, gets to benefit from the FCS' target lock and you still reacquire it), then swoop off while you wait out the attack-less turn. Did someone manage to clip you? R2-D2 will have those shields patched up in no time. Corran costs like 40-something points outfitted like this but he is, as I've said, a motherfucker. The list I play against and have the most trouble with is Corran Horn plus Chewbacca in the Falcon (which, amusingly enough, I've only ever managed to beat with thread favorites Wedge and Wes, along with Dutch Vander).
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Jan 16, 2016 08:19
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So what happened to ol' Biggs? Back when I was playing, he was everyone's favorite foux electronic warfare system and an integral part of meta tactics, but I haven't seen a single mention of him since I've started looking at the game again.
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Jan 16, 2016 08:41
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IMO the meta has shifted to the point where there's nothing that's so spectacularly good to warrant spending his cost on a T-65 X-wing just to keep it alive longer. But I'm a scrub so who knows.
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Jan 16, 2016 08:47
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So is wave 8 coming all at once or do they stagger the ship releases?
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Jan 16, 2016 10:54
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Corbeau posted:So what happened to ol' Biggs? Back when I was playing, he was everyone's favorite foux electronic warfare system and an integral part of meta tactics, but I haven't seen a single mention of him since I've started looking at the game again. The quality of attacks drastically improved since Biggs' heyday. There are way more cannons and general 3-dice attacks flying around than there used to be.
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Jan 16, 2016 12:50
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Corbeau posted:So what happened to ol' Biggs? https://youtu.be/2WBG2rJZGW8?t=682
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Jan 16, 2016 13:12
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Devlan Mud posted:I would like Fel's alt-art way better if it didn't have the silly kill-markings on the side. That's my EU hangup. You won't see me complaining about how tractor beams aren't perfectly true to the awful background at least. Lol I like how awful your understanding of my post was. Range 1-3 secondary weapon that can move people and reduce their agility and doesn't fit into the fluff. Autoblaster, meanwhile, is 5 points. Edit: even TLT have a range restriction and they are 6 pts. alg fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 13:14
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The auto blaster cannon was always a mistake in terms of pricing. Auto blaster turret is 2 points and still doesn't see much use (yeah, I know, one less dice).
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Jan 16, 2016 13:27
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Tekopo posted:The auto blaster cannon was always a mistake in terms of pricing. Auto blaster turret is 2 points and still doesn't see much use (yeah, I know, one less dice). Yup. 1 point range 1-3 tractor just makes it an auto include.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:29
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alg posted:Yup. 1 point range 1-3 tractor just makes it an auto include. But it's not, really. Tractor beam on most ships just isn't that amazing. I mean this reads like someone on the FFG complaining that Hera and Chopper are OP as gently caress without actually reading the subset of ships that can actually take them. For example, Hera has an interesting ability for 1 point, but A: You still get the stress for doing a red, and B: Rebel ships with crew slots that actually really get much use out of the reds and don't need actions are non-existent, maybe just Ghost itself. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 13:35
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Panzeh posted:But it's not, really. Tractor beam on most ships just isn't that amazing. Crew slots have a lot of options. Cannon slot doesn't have anything else competitive at 1 point. Bwings almost never fly cannons, for example. I also am not saying its the end of the world or it's OP as gently caress. Its pretty disappointing that it's only 1 point for such a powerful tool. If it were cut to even range 1-2 it would be more interesting. We'll see what happens. The Falcon is already out of the meta thanks to TLT. Ghost doesn't suffer from Tractors at all. Poe will probably become a liability and Soontir and Horn will just become even more popular I suspect.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:44
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I don't think so. The tractor beam isn't very useful in non-T/D lists if you have a low number of ships. It isn't useful in aces lists either. You have to have a follow up or the weapon does nothing, especially if you are facing large ships. You have to tailor your list to make use of it. And I disagree with your statement that the ion effect is weaker than the tractor effect: being able to know what manuever your opponent is going to do next is extremely powerful. But let's get in some maths to check how powerful tractor beams actually are. The list I'm most worried about is 4xtractor Bs. Let's forget about focus/target lock for the time being. Against 2 agility: 4x B-wings just firing their primaries: 1.5 hits - 0.75 evades x 4 = 3 hits Against 1 agility: 3x B-wings just firing their primaries 1.5 hits - 0.375 evades x 3 = 3.375 hits So you are spending 1 point for an extra 0.375 hits, although in that situation you probably want the tractor beam on all the Bs in order to ensure that you aren't relying on just one b-wing with it. The repositioning is also a factor, of course, but it is difficult to quantise how valuable it is in the long term, especially since it doesn't work on large ships. Btw, using the above example, if you say that one b-wing is out of position for both, the average hits for both examples go down to 2.25 and if there is only two ships, just firing primaries is better on two b-wings than firing a tractor beam + primary.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:49
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Another interesting thing. If you assume a 1 agility base, 4 b-wings firing primaries will do 4.5 damage, while 3 b-wings firing at 0 agility will also do 4.5.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:54
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Tekopo posted:I don't think so. The tractor beam isn't very useful in non-T/D lists if you have a low number of ships. It isn't useful in aces lists either. You have to have a follow up or the weapon does nothing, especially if you are facing large ships. You have to tailor your list to make use of it. And I disagree with your statement that the ion effect is weaker than the tractor effect: being able to know what manuever your opponent is going to do next is extremely powerful. If both effects cost 3 points and required 2 shots to affect a large ship, I would agree with you.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:54
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Tekopo posted:I don't think so. The tractor beam isn't very useful in non-T/D lists if you have a low number of ships. It isn't useful in aces lists either. You have to have a follow up or the weapon does nothing, especially if you are facing large ships. You have to tailor your list to make use of it. And I disagree with your statement that the ion effect is weaker than the tractor effect: being able to know what manuever your opponent is going to do next is extremely powerful. The effect is much worse when you start getting into 3 agi ships or modified green dice ships because the tractor itself has to hit for this to work.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:58
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alg posted:If both effects cost 3 points and required 2 shots to affect a large ship, I would agree with you. You are potentially losing damage if you manage to tractor but don't follow it up. Ion does damage and allows you to follow up the shot next turn and especially with a way to give stress, it is still very powerful. Remember that mangler is 1 point over the ion cannon simply due to the possibility of doing more than one damage. I feel that the tractor beam is in line with that.
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Jan 16, 2016 13:59
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alg posted:Yup. 1 point range 1-3 tractor just makes it an auto include. Really? On most lists with cannons I just can't really see firing it over firing a primary. I'd throw it on a YV or a Shuttle if I had a spare point, but B wings have better things to be doing, and unless there are a lot of other shots flying or range is critical to the list, giving up an attack to maybe reduce an agility just isn't that good. In many if not most builds I'd prefer the initiative bid, though. TIE Defenders are another matter, but then, Tractor Beams are a big part of the fix for them - and according to a playtester friend of a friend, /x7 is better anyway.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:00
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Panzeh posted:The effect is much worse when you start getting into 3 agi ships or modified green dice ships because the tractor itself has to hit for this to work.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:00
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thespaceinvader posted:Really? On most lists with cannons I just can't really see firing it over firing a primary. I'd throw it on a YV or a Shuttle if I had a spare point, but B wings have better things to be doing, and unless there are a lot of other shots flying or range is critical to the list, giving up an attack to maybe reduce an agility just isn't that good. In many if not most builds I'd prefer the initiative bid, though. B-Wngs can bring it just for the possible situation they might want it, because it's only 1 point. Poe is a great example of a popular ship that is crippled losing even 1 Agility. Firing a 1 point cannon once in a game (it can fire out to range 3) to wreck something like Poe would totally be worth it.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:04
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thespaceinvader posted:TIE Defenders are another matter, but then, Tractor Beams are a big part of the fix for them - and according to a playtester friend of a friend, /x7 is better anyway. x7 is better, yeah, because it's a lot easier to increase damage than to increase defense. That free evade is massive. alg posted:B-Wngs can bring it just for the possible situation they might want it, because it's only 1 point. Poe is a great example of a popular ship that is crippled losing even 1 Agility. Firing a 1 point cannon once in a game (it can fire out to range 3) to wreck something like Poe would totally be worth it. That 1-point tractor means you're giving up a Z-95 in the list, and if Poe is going to get shot at by several ships he's in for a world of hurt even with 2 agility. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 14:04
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Panzeh is right, although the fact that the repositioning can be used to drag Poe into position has to be taken in account.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:18
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Panzeh posted:x7 is better, yeah, because it's a lot easier to increase damage than to increase defense. That free evade is massive. He could usually tank and regen at range 3. Now he will get pulled into range 2 and lose an agility and just flop.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:24
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alg posted:He could usually tank and regen at range 3. Now he will get pulled into range 2 and lose an agility and just flop. Assuming the tractor beam hits when he has autothrusters active. You could also hit him with a stressbot and gently caress him over completely next turn. And that, by the way, is a 100% shot if he's in the arc.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:28
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alg posted:If both effects cost 3 points and required 2 shots to affect a large ship, I would agree with you.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:39
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Tekopo posted:Thinking about this, if the tractor beam was 3 points and required two beam tokens to remove one agility from big ships, it would be worse than useless and exactly 0 lists would take it apart from gimmicky TIE/D lists. Of course. But if it were 1 pt and range 1 or 1-2 and required some smart maneuvering to use...
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Jan 16, 2016 14:44
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alg posted:Of course. But if it were 1 pt and range 1 or 1-2 and required some smart maneuvering to use... It would never be used because maneuverable ships that can carry a cannon can't afford to give up their shot. I mean, are you going to complain about the stressbot, too?
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Jan 16, 2016 14:55
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Panzeh posted:It would never be used because maneuverable ships that can carry a cannon can't afford to give up their shot. Stressbot is unique, isn't 1 point, and actually has range restrictions.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:56
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alg posted:Of course. But if it were 1 pt and range 1 or 1-2 and required some smart maneuvering to use... *shrug* you still have to get people in arc, and it still costs you a shot and doesn't do any damage by itself. It's good, and it's going to have an impact on the meta much bigger than its goodness would indicate because of the magnitude of the change that forced movement adds to the mechanics... but it's certainly not overpowered any more than any of the other things that have done just that previously were. Except Cloaking, which is why that was errated.
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Jan 16, 2016 14:56
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Tractor beams will see splash play for the movement effect, not for the agility reduction. Dragging a ship like Poe or Red Ace onto a rock to possibly deal damage for two turns, prevent actions next turn, and prevent shooting this turn is powerful. 1 point for all that is pretty great. Sure, highly defensive ships won't get hit, generally, but things like TLT Y-Wings and other low agility ships are really vulnerable to it. It's good, but probably fine since it's not directly dealing damage and those situations aren't super common.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:04
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The bad outcome from this would be that people just start bringing the tiny rocks only (also so they don't hit debris) and this game basically turns into open star field land.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:07
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i have to say however that the rules for tractor beams are pretty badly written ATM: - No clarification if you can beam stuff off the map - It is difficult to say if stuff beamed onto obstacles actually affects them on that turn (beyond preventing them from shooting if they are on rocks). The tractor beam card says that they aren't manuever/actions, and rules for obstacles say that you lose stuff if you manuever onto them. Thank god that the the Dash tractor mindfuck isn't actually possible. Dash crew might see more use in the meta though, but there aren't a whole lot of crewed small rebel fighters.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:15
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The Gate posted:Dragging a ship like Poe or Red Ace onto a rock to possibly deal damage for two turns, prevent actions next turn, and prevent shooting this turn is powerful. The rock is only going to deal potential damage for one turn. Tractor beam movement isn't a maneuver, and the rules for rocks only deal damage while executing maneuvers.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:17
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Tekopo posted:i have to say however that the rules for tractor beams are pretty badly written ATM: Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. It wouldn't have taken much to clarify both these issues. I'm also super disappointed that it's phrased as 'your opponent' who does the forced movement when you take a tractor token, rather than 'the player who gave you the token', because it blocks the opportunity to develop stuff where you take a tractor token as both a good and bad effect - I was thinking about an Illicit that let you take a tractor token when you took a boost or barrel roll action, but it wouldn't work if it was your opponent who made the movement decision.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:28
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Tekopo posted:i have to say however that the rules for tractor beams are pretty badly written ATM: I dunno, it's pretty clear. The movement is a boost or barrel roll, which can't take you off the board. The rules for the beam make a specific exception for obstacles. I guess if rocks only trigger on maneuvers, then they won't deal damage the same turn, I thought it was whenever you touched them. But the movement is explicitly not a maneuver.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:42
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The Gate posted:I dunno, it's pretty clear. The movement is a boost or barrel roll, which can't take you off the board. The rules for the beam make a specific exception for obstacles. I guess if rocks only trigger on maneuvers, then they won't deal damage the same turn, I thought it was whenever you touched them. But the movement is explicitly not a maneuver. You have to set them up so their template has to touch the rock after the move.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:44
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Yes, I realize, but that's pretty easy generally since you can slide them around a good bit on a barrel roll.
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Jan 16, 2016 16:05
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alg posted:Lol I like how awful your understanding of my post was. Range 1-3 secondary weapon that can move people and reduce their agility and doesn't fit into the fluff. I was making a dig at the guys at my store who were complaining that tractor beams shouldn't be able to push ships, and should only be able to pull them at short range, and would rather have some Warhammer-esque three paragraphs of rules to ensure that happens. It had absolutely nothing to do on the actual merits (or not) of tractor beams as written.
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Jan 16, 2016 16:20
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Been thinking about what to buy if I'm getting back in, and I think that picking up a fourth TIE fighter (probably the /fo version) and a Phantom would give me a reasonably balanced imperial list: 100 points: “Whisper” (42) TIE Phantom (32), Gunner (5), Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Cloaking Device (4) “Howlrunner” (22) TIE Fighter (18), Cool Hand (1), Stealth Device (3) Academy Pilot (12) x 3 I'd have to proxy the Gunner and the Stealth Device, but I'm not planning on playing in tournaments any time soon. I'd also be proxying the /fo as Howlrunner, but I'd think people would be happy to have her visually distinct in a swarm. 
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Jan 16, 2016 16:21
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Corbeau posted:Been thinking about what to buy if I'm getting back in, and I think that picking up a fourth TIE fighter (probably the /fo version) and a Phantom would give me a reasonably balanced imperial list: Whisper miniswarm is cool, though I think it you swapped out the gunner for something cheaper you could pick up FCS. Maybe Proxy up Kallus.
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Jan 16, 2016 16:24
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