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marshalljim posted:This is so clueless it's painful to read. I normally don't care about hyperbole, but this struck me because you're wrong. Its not your fault that you're wrong because the nitty-gritty of charging is generally a mystery to everyone but law enforcement and career criminals. So congratulations on your life choices, but maybe chill out a bit. annnd  marshalljim posted:"Reasonable doubt" is a standard that applies at (criminal) trial. If the existence of any kind of "reasonable doubt" meant that law enforcement officers had to give up on trying to figure out what happened in a particular case, almost no one would ever be convicted of anything. The point of investigating is to reveal more information. Information which might clarify things... Or, uh, do away with doubts. There are probably many jurisdictions where it would be standard practice to arrest on the facts you provided. Consider though, that this isn't a standard situation and also that would be a bad practice. First of all, you're looking at the wrong standard. Reasonable doubt ultimately matters, sure, but at the moment it's all about "probable cause." Police can arrest people when they think they have probable cause that 1. a crime has been committed and 2. the person they've arrested has committed that crime. They're allowed to base that on all the information they have available to them, but they have to source that information. More importantly, the judge of whether or not they actually have probable cause is a judge. If you PC arrest someone, they're hauled before a judge within 24 hours who looks at sworn affidavits and says "yes, you have it" or "no you don't." If you don't, then they're released, full stop. So while yes, you can eventually bolster a weak case for trial by getting security camera footage, finding witnesses, analyzing physical evidence, etc, when you arrest someone you're starting a countdown to put up or shut up. Consider the varying PC between Militant #1 (who was arrested) and Militant #2. With Militant #1 the Statie can testify
That's all you need. PC is a pretty low standard. Even so, with Militant #2,
The Statie doesn't have probable cause, the judge laughs at him, and he's named in an unlawful detainer lawsuit three months down the line. You can bolster the case with security camera footage, witness statements, fingerprints off the truck, and whatnot, but all that takes time and as I mentioned above, an arrest kicks off a very short timer. The alternate, and much better, approach in non-emergency situations is to reverse the process and get an arrest warrant. The standards are the same, but instead of hooking the dude and hoping you're right, you take what you've got to a judge, get his or her blessing (and a bail that matters) in advance (or get a grand jury indictment, but that's a whole other post). So tow the truck, pull the cameras, and canvass the neighborhood, and have paper waiting on him the next time he comes to town. Moreover, your bail argument is based on what you can prove to the judge at the time. This matters when your ultimate goal is to take pieces off the board. Consider that Oregon does a 10% bail bond thing which means that you have to put up 10% up to be released, so when I run numbers here, keep in mind that we're actually talking about ten cents on the dollar for release. So let's say you get PC on Militant #2 for theft of a government vehicle. Bail is going to be driven by several factors (which I will spitball and may or may not be the going rate in Wasteland, Oregon):
Even with a somewhat spotty criminal history, I'd guess that he'd bee looking at a bail of no more than $30,000, which, again, he'd only need to put up 10%. So even if you had PC, that guy's a title loan away from standing in front of the cameras recounting how the Government rousted him for getting groceries (because they are oppressive and evil) but couldn't stop him from fulfilling his patriotic duty (because they are weak and ineffectual). It matters less if Militant #1 has a federal PV warrant hanging over his head, because he's off the board for a good long while (he'll be arraigned locally, extradited to whatever jurisdiction his original conviction is in, and I'm betting his federal parole officer will have his rearrested if he comes back within 500 miles of Oregon) That's why PC arresting militant #2 would be a bad practice generally and a horrible one specific to this situation. Chef Boyardeez Nuts fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 18:25
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duck monster posted:If it is indeed cameras used in research I'd have no qualms about participating in a kickstarter to get them replaced. Because loving nutball libertarians need to stop wrecking science. Or the government could just fine these assholes and pay for the replacements that way. Intel&Sebastian posted:I'm asking how someone who called Malheur and other hypothetical armed situations "peaceful protests" threads that needle. With a thread of racism.
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Jan 16, 2016 18:25
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Evil Fluffy posted:Or the government could just fine these assholes and pay for the replacements that way. Attempting to get these fines paid might cause another Waco though, so we wouldn't see that money for years. 
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Jan 16, 2016 18:47
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ToastyPotato posted:Attempting to get these fines paid might cause another Waco though, so we wouldn't see that money for years. If it results in these fuckholes dying in fire? So worth it imo.
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Jan 16, 2016 18:49
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ToastyPotato posted:Attempting to get these fines paid might cause another Waco though, so we wouldn't see that money for years. Longevity really is the Fed's superpower though. "Feel free to freeze your asses off patrolling Bundyland. We'll think kindly of you when we auction off the assets we seize from your estate.  "
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Jan 16, 2016 18:57
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It'll be pretty ironic when the Feds seize their property to pay off the fines they incurred protesting the Feds seizing not their property.
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Jan 16, 2016 18:59
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ToastyPotato posted:Attempting to get these fines paid might cause another Waco though, so we wouldn't see that money for years. The government can garnish your wages (or just seize assets) and there's gently caress all you can do about it.
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Jan 16, 2016 19:11
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Seat Safety Switch posted:It'll be pretty ironic when the Feds seize their property to pay off the fines they incurred protesting the Feds seizing not their property. I'm sure they'll be slotted in just behind the debts of Cliven Bundy.
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Jan 16, 2016 19:13
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https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/688418355238293504 Her past thread of tweets is really worth reading, but the long and the short of it is that she's saying 'yeah, these guys believe insane, ridiculous things and it's easy to make fun of them, but it's important to remember they're dangerous and their nonsense turns violent, because it's easy to let how clownish they are prevent you (or the people you're reporting this to) from taking them seriously'. And she mentions calling a certain police chief in 2010 to talk to him about the sixteen year old dude who shot his son dead, and that she'd been following the Kanes in the news before that and hadn't really taken their violent rhetoric seriously herself.
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Jan 16, 2016 19:35
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Watch Pete freak out and shout at people with his bullhorn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovLZ4WqfpXE Guess the peaceful protesters don't like people peacefully protesting them.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:31
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Currently on today's livestream: A group of counter protestors have shown up and taken over the microphone, while waving signs saying "Stop Bundy Land Grab". They've been surrounded by incredibly angry militia who are screaming at them. Meanwhile Pete Santilli has gotten a megaphone from somewhere, and is walking around the counter-protestors screaming incoherently and occasionally setting off the air-raid siren on it. It is pretty much the funniest thing I've seen all week.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:32
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Archibald Tuttle posted:Watch Pete freak out and shout at people with his bullhorn. Omg. He's is so mad at these guys. And he lost his windcover for the mic...
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Jan 16, 2016 20:34
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Scrolled back a bit to see what I missed: Pete: I BET YOU THINK THE POST OFFICE IS RUNNING EFFICIENTLY TOO!!!!!! 
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Jan 16, 2016 20:36
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i feel like i am missing a great opportunity to provoke these guys in person
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Jan 16, 2016 20:39
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"These patriots brought these mics here! You're trying to ride on their coattails like a parasite with an EBT card."
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Jan 16, 2016 20:39
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Seize all the land except for their houses, then let yoked open-carrying Pakistani ranchers graze cattle on it
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Jan 16, 2016 20:41
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Archibald Tuttle posted:"These patriots brought these mics here! You're trying to ride on their coattails like a parasite with an EBT card." I said it before, and I'm saying it again: Pete is the fanboy who's going to actually start something. The way he's acting right now can only be called frothing rage. He is so angry at these guys for just standing there with signs.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:42
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This is legitimately hard to watch. I had to turn it off... Pete's also decided to trade in his leather jacket, scarf combo for something more...militant (he's also calling himself "militant press" in today's stream.) https://twitter.com/conradjwilson/status/688444238531407872 Crain fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jan 16, 2016 |
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Jan 16, 2016 20:44
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I'm still not understanding this recent arrest situation. These assholes have been driving all over the town without a care in the world for the past 2 weeks right? So why did the feds/cops/whoever suddenly get the brilliant idea to make an arrest at the grocery store? Something had to have changed, right?
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Jan 16, 2016 20:47
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He was screaming into the protester's ear with his bullhorn, gently caress that dude with a rusty knife.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:49
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Mr Interweb posted:I'm still not understanding this recent arrest situation. These assholes have been driving all over the town without a care in the world for the past 2 weeks right? So why did the feds/cops/whoever suddenly get the brilliant idea to make an arrest at the grocery store? Something had to have changed, right? Like someone else said. He made himself such low hanging fruit he was making a crater. Doing something that blatantly, to me, seems to demand a response.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:49
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The will of these people not from Burns really want the FBI to leave Burns, huh, weird.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:49
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Mr Interweb posted:I'm still not understanding this recent arrest situation. These assholes have been driving all over the town without a care in the world for the past 2 weeks right? So why did the feds/cops/whoever suddenly get the brilliant idea to make an arrest at the grocery store? Something had to have changed, right? He was violating the terms of his probation.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:51
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Crain posted:This is legitimately hard to watch. I had to turn it off... According to his bio he's a former Marine. Don't know why he'd opt to wear an Army uniform now.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:53
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I'm enjoying this guys take on Pete's horrible Journalistic practices. https://twitter.com/JohnLGC/status/688448740894445568
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Jan 16, 2016 20:57
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The Larch posted:He was violating the terms of his probation. The terms of his probation being (I am not making GBS threads you) "Don't squat on federal land."
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Jan 16, 2016 20:58
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The Larch posted:He was violating the terms of his probation. Yeah, I know I read that. But the other guy he was with (as well as the other douches in the militia) was also breaking the law. They could theoretically have arrested these guys at any time. And even if they got this one dude on a charge that's not directly related to the occupation, wouldn't the militia guys still see that as an act of aggression?
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Jan 16, 2016 20:58
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Crain posted:I said it before, and I'm saying it again: Pete is the fanboy who's going to actually start something. And he's still headed to the FBI "compound" at the airport later today, 2pm local he was saying. That should be fun. It's still confusing that they keep saying "the will of the people" and yet the majority of that will seems to want them to get the hell out. "We care about biodiversity!" *has a sticker calling the refuge a resource center with a cow and a tree on it* 
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Jan 16, 2016 21:00
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Mr Interweb posted:Yeah, I know I read that. But the other guy he was with (as well as the other douches in the militia) was also breaking the law. They could theoretically have arrested these guys at any time. And even if they got this one dude on a charge that's not directly related to the occupation, wouldn't the militia guys still see that as an act of aggression? I think they were just being uber cautious. He had gone inside a populated area, these guys are known to open/concealed carry (an it can be assumed they have a "back up gun" somewhere hidden even if concealed carry isn't allowed), and following him could have started a pursuit situation and then potentially a hostage situation. I agree with just not going after him.
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Jan 16, 2016 21:02
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Mr Interweb posted:Yeah, I know I read that. But the other guy he was with (as well as the other douches in the militia) was also breaking the law. They could theoretically have arrested these guys at any time. And even if they got this one dude on a charge that's not directly related to the occupation, wouldn't the militia guys still see that as an act of aggression? As far as law enforcement is concerned, violating probation is pretty much the worst crime ever.
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Jan 16, 2016 21:04
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Lotka Volterra posted:He was screaming into the protester's ear with his bullhorn, gently caress that dude with a rusty knife.
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Jan 16, 2016 21:29
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That article now has "UPDATE: Protester ordered not to occupy federal property as condition of his release from federal charges now pending in Medford."
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Jan 16, 2016 21:37
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Jippa posted:What sort of name is cliven? Do his friends call him clive? "Ammond" I don't get it either.
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Jan 16, 2016 21:41
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:The Lapine is a takeoff of The Onion made by and for Canadians. Ah nuts. Though I mean, if people who wanted to use the public land like that and came across from of the Militia guys, they would be in a similar situation. They don't want to open the land up to everyone, because it already is, they want to open the land up to exploitation by people they like. Armyman25 posted:According to his bio he's a former Marine. Don't know why he'd opt to wear an Army uniform now. I'd think stolen valor is the case here.
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Jan 16, 2016 21:47
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I feel like they are going to pop a counter protester and thats whats gonna light things off, I think this is the first time I have really seen anyone go off on a counter protester before.
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Jan 16, 2016 21:54
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Telsa Cola posted:I feel like they are going to pop a counter protester and thats whats gonna light things off, I think this is the first time I have really seen anyone go off on a counter protester before. Or a clueless hunter or birdwatcher or something strays too close and the militia take a shot at him.
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Jan 16, 2016 22:00
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Telsa Cola posted:I feel like they are going to pop a counter protester and thats whats gonna light things off, I think this is the first time I have really seen anyone go off on a counter protester before. And whoever shoots the counter protester will be instantly labeled as an FBI/BLM plant. It's best if they're allowed to just mow down counter protesters at will really.
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Jan 16, 2016 22:01
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Intel&Sebastian posted:A 55 gallon drum of it is pretty funny imo, but I wouldn't expect them to repeat the dildo vid ever again. Cards against humanity isnt funny or cool. Its an automated and contagious form of edgy teenager. drat, you're a buzzkill. What do you do for fun at parties?
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Jan 16, 2016 22:05
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I really hope Pete get's taken in with these guys and we get to watch from his own stream as he loses his poo poo and screams about how "HE'S PRESS" and "DIDN'T DO ANYTHING".
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Jan 16, 2016 22:05
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Duke Igthorn posted:"Ammond" Mormons. See also Millard Romney and his brood.
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Jan 16, 2016 22:21
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