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Nope, you're absolutely wrong about that. The security services very much want peace and de-escalation, and have been engaged in constant backchannel talks with Hamas.
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Jan 17, 2016 20:35
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Kim Jong Il posted:Nope, you're absolutely wrong about that. The security services very much want peace and de-escalation, and have been engaged in constant backchannel talks with Hamas. I 100% agree with this. However they also don't want to free the Palestinians, stop taking their land or stop oppressing them. The Israeli government and military's ideal is the current status quo of Palestinians being oppressed and occupied forever but where the Palestinians don't get angry about it and are just chill about the whole situation.
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Jan 17, 2016 20:56
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Nope
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Jan 17, 2016 21:06
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Yup. Seriously though, not just doing lovely one word links with no explanation, do you actually believe that Israel wants peace on the basis of a two-state solution with a sovereign Palestine based on 1967 borders? Netanyahu was elected on the basis of no two-state solution and has bragged in the past about ruining the peace process. I mean it seems pretty cut and dry.
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Jan 17, 2016 21:34
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quote:Moreh told The Economist that after interviewing the Shin Bet heads, he decided that Netanyahu “poses a great threat to the existence of the state of Israel.” He said that he seeks “to change the point of view of young Israelis. To tell them a story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has not been told before.”
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Jan 17, 2016 21:40
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You both missed "security services" in his post
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Jan 17, 2016 21:55
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team overhead smash posted:
If you actually read it, it's a documentary about how all the living heads of Shin Bet want peace and radically disagree with current policy, which is also verified by hundreds of thousands of links if you do a basic Google search. Otherwise, you'll get radically different results depending on who exactly you're referring to, just as if you would if were to ask the question whether or not Palestine wants peace. If you're going to talk about the current government, Netanyahu wouldn't be in office if the Joint List could have held their nose and coalitioned with Zionist parties. I'd argue that whatever metric you choose, Zionists are more likely to agree with a two state solution, where supposedly peace-oriented anti-Zionists like Barghouti and Abunimah are strongly opposed to a two state solution, and many of those who do agree with a two state solution in theory would not stop with going back to 1967, and want to re-litigate 1948.
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Jan 18, 2016 01:38
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How viable is a Bosnia style solution where there is a confederation of two almost independent enitities.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:If you actually read it, it's a documentary about how all the living heads of Shin Bet want peace and radically disagree with current policy, which is also verified by hundreds of thousands of links if you do a basic Google search. Ben-Gurion had basically the same revelation when his own political career was over and he no longer had any pull in the israeli government. The important distinction to be made here is how relevant are these men in the world of the israeli security services, who actually heeds their advice or listens to their input? Also, concerning two-state vs. one-state I think the important question to ask yourself what is more important? Civil rights for minorities in Israel or the existence of a defanged, economically impotent Palestinian state existing side by side with The Jewish State©?
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Jan 18, 2016 04:10
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Ben Gurion's revelation was simply that Israel will not be able to ethnically cleanse the territories it occupied in 1967 in the same manner it did those it occupied in 1948, his criticism against the settlement enterprise and the perma-occupation was utilitarian and nothing else. He realized that the 'window of opportunity' as far as committing large scale crimes against humanity and getting a pass for it due to the holocaust and the post-WW2 international turmoil has long since shut and that controlling a territory populated with the people he worked so hard to ethnically cleanse in the first place was detrimental to his vision of the zionist enterprise. And hey, he was right. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jan 18, 2016 |
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Jan 18, 2016 12:00
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lol, shameless https://twitter.com/idfspokesperson/status/689076979354742784
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Jan 18, 2016 20:33
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He supported Zionism just like Gandhi opposed it. You can argue all you want about the facts on the ground changing, but then that'd apply to Gandhi as well. His quote was after the Six Day War but before settlements started in earnest. I feel like he'd probably be a J Streeter, but Gandhi would also be probably shamed into giving up his voluntary self-genocide is great theory too.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:39
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Yes Ghandi, famously vulnerable to being socially shamed into renouncing pacifism. I'm sure if enough people made pointed comments about anti-semitism he would have said Israel should continue the shellings until Palestinian morale improves. In case anyone feels I'm being antisemitic in highlighting Ghandi's hypothetical disapproval of Israel's aggressive military policy and deliberately punishing (if selective) embargo of Palestine, I am sure he would also condemn Palestinian violence aimed at Israelis.
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Jan 19, 2016 00:22
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https://twitter.com/davidsheen/status/689514067854266369 https://twitter.com/davidsheen/status/689515761648439297 
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Jan 19, 2016 19:35
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MrNemo posted:Yes Ghandi, famously vulnerable to being socially shamed into renouncing pacifism. I'm sure if enough people made pointed comments about anti-semitism he would have said Israel should continue the shellings until Palestinian morale improves. All of that predate Gandhi, who thought Jews should have willingly walked into the gas chambers.
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Jan 20, 2016 03:03
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Pretty hosed up that gets glossed over in the official narrative when martin luther loving king junior advocated for israel. At the same rally I remember seeing footage of an old israeli guy with I think a tan hat(I posted his pic in the last i/p thread that's why)was screaming at a lady for the disgusting crime of having married a black man. Used really ungenerous words. I thought tel aviv was supposed to be this huge bastion of startup culture/liberalism not some barely contained cesspool like every major american city is but then again I've never left the contiguous united states and I've never heard of street/sidewalk making GBS threads being tolerated anywhere in israel proper so maybe it's not so bad?
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Jan 20, 2016 03:06
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Kim Jong Il posted:All of that predate Gandhi, who thought Jews should have willingly walked into the gas chambers. You're dumb.
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Jan 20, 2016 03:07
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Gandhi totally advocated a willingness to die in the name of nonviolent resistance but seriously you are a stupid loving person if you think he would have applied the same measures as say british colonial interests to that of jews resisting the nazis/mechanisms of the nazi holocaust.
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Jan 20, 2016 03:10
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Kim Jong Il posted:If you're going to talk about the current government, Netanyahu wouldn't be in office if the Joint List could have held their nose and coalitioned with Zionist parties. Do you have any evidence that Labour or other Zionist parties had any interest in allying with a party of demographic threats? And even if they did, given Labour's continued support for settlements, apartheid and massacring Palestinian civilians, how would they be any closer to peace with a jingoistic Labour PM instead of Netanyahu(who at least has the virtue of being transparent)? Historically, the difference between Likud and Labour administrations is that Likud is open about their intentions and their contempt for international law and human rights whereas Labour pays lip service to such values while simultaneously bulldozing Palestinian houses and further entrenching a system of racial segregation and domination. Do you have any reason to believe that the ZU or other Zionist coalition partners would agree to bare minimum measures like a freeze on settlement construction or the construction of new Arab villages? Would they agree to stop slaughtering Gazan civilians whenever the fancy strikes? quote:I'd argue that whatever metric you choose, Zionists are more likely to agree with a two state solution, where supposedly peace-oriented anti-Zionists like Barghouti and Abunimah are strongly opposed to a two state solution, You could not possibly be further from the truth. quote:and many of those who do agree with a two state solution in theory would not stop with going back to 1967, and want to re-litigate 1948. There's no need to "re-litigate" anything. Victims of ethnic cleansing have a fundamental, inviolable right to return to their homeland. As long as Israel refuses to recognize the rights of the Palestinians it ethnically cleansed in 48, it will continue to be an apartheid state. FreshlyShaven fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 14:10
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In which a former Netanyahu advisor calls US ambassador to Israel, Daniel Shapiro, a "little Jew boy" on national TV:JPost posted:US criticism of Israeli actions in the West Bank have drawn a furious response from Israel this week, including a former official dismissing the US ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro as a "little Jew boy." Not hard to imagine that similar anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism is at the heart of the Israeli right-wing.
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Jan 20, 2016 16:28
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Kim Jong Il posted:All of that predate Gandhi, who thought Jews should have willingly walked into the gas chambers. Are you saying that people should instead resist violent oppression? Seems like you're a terrorist-loving Palestinian supporter, you antisemite!
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Jan 20, 2016 17:17
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Awesome, let's quote the Likud institute for Likud studies when there are millions of polls that disagree with it. Not that the rest of your post is any less horrific.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:54
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Kim Jong Il posted:Awesome, let's quote the Likud institute for Likud studies when there are millions of polls that disagree with it. From the article: quote:Leftwing commentators suggested the polling was likely to be an accurate reflection of Israeli public opinion. The study is accurate. The fact that it comes from a right-wing polling company is not a legitimate criticism of its validity. Moreover, a Haaretz poll found the same results. I'm quoting from 972 b/c I don't read Hebrew: quote:However, when simple details are given about the two-state agreement, support crumbles. The basic outline in the subsequent question mirrors the Camp David talks from 14 years ago, and many doubt whether this formula is even applicable anymore. Similar results. And keep in mind the Haaretz poll includes all Israeli citizens, including Palestinians, not just Israeli Jews. A slight majority of Jewish Israelis claim that they support a 2 state solution, but when you actually give the details of what such a deal would entail(evacuating illegal settlements, handing over control of East Jerusalem and the West Bank's natural resources, etc.), support drops precipitously. In other words, Israelis are for a 2 state solution as long as it doesn't actually create a Palestinian state(or even anything remotely resembling an independent country.) quote:Not that the rest of your post is any less horrific. I'm sorry if insisting upon the rights of ethnic cleansing victims or questioning whether a centrist Zionist coalition would have anything to do with a party of anti-Zionist "demographic threats"(aka, visiting reality) horrifies you. Could you explain which one of my points in particular you find so "horrific": is it my belief that victims of ethnic cleansing deserve human rights and equality or is it the simple fact that the Zionist Union had no interest in partnering with anti-Zionists and that such a coalition, if it through the intercession of some miracle it did occur, would almost immediately fall apart over irreconcilable differences? FreshlyShaven fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 14:32
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So the arrests of the three activists arrested the past week over the "extradition" of Palestinians who sold lands and real estate to Jewish Israeli settlers to the PA's preventive security force (shin bet equivalent) has reached a new level of apartheid farce today. Two of the activists are Israeli jews themselves, these are Guy Botvia and Ezra Nawi of Taayush, the latter of which was recorded on hidden camera boasting of having provided intel that according to his own claims led to the murder and torture of the land sellers, the third one is a Palestinian B'tselem employee by the name of Nasser Nawaja, now Nawi and Botvia were both held for a couple of days under police custody with their right to confer with their lawyer suspended, the police tried all the tricks in the book to keep them under custody while the courts very reluctantly stated that despite the litany of felonies the police accused Nawi and Botvia it is actually quite legal to report crimes to the PA in places where the PA has legal jurisdiction, so, both were eventually released today after one final last ditch effort by the police to appeal the court's decision. As for Nawaja things were a bit different as the courts claimed that neither the court nor the Israeli police have any authority to arrest or try Nawaja in the first place and that as a palestinian citizen there's nothing felonious about his conduct as he's expected to report felonies to the PA and he cannot be held personally responsible for alleged misconduct by PA law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Now that all sounds well and good, but guess what happened next? Instead of releasing Nawaja immediately they transported him to the west bank where he's been rearrested by the IDF and has been put into administrative arrest. Taayush and other activist groups have filed a complaint against the police for contempt of court though personally I doubt it'll lead to the release of Nawaja.
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Jan 21, 2016 21:29
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https://electronicintifada.net/content/fraud-fit-king-israel-zionism-and-misuse-mlk/4373
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Jan 21, 2016 21:33
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FreshlyShaven posted:From the article: Here are literally the first two sentences of the article. You realize that it's possible for us to actually click on and read the links that you post? Or are we supposed to be surprised that support drops when wording about major concessions are included? Want to take a guess how Palestinian polled support for a two-state solution would change if you prefaced it with a clause stating it meant abandoning the return of Palestinian refugees? And please don't move the goalposts, since you were the one insisting that the idea that anti-Zionists aren't more opposed to a two state solution than Zionists is "completely wrong". quote:A poll has found that 75% of Israeli Jews oppose the creation of a Palestinian state within the pre-1967 borders if it means withdrawing Israeli troops from the Jordan Valley. Ultramega posted:Gandhi totally advocated a willingness to die in the name of nonviolent resistance but seriously you are a stupid loving person if you think he would have applied the same measures as say british colonial interests to that of jews resisting the nazis/mechanisms of the nazi holocaust. Yeah, about that hypothetical "stupid loving person" being ignorant of Gandhi's stance on nonviolence and the Holocaust... Gandhi posted:Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions
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Jan 21, 2016 22:16
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The Insect Court posted:Or are we supposed to be surprised that support drops when wording about major concessions are included? I wouldn't be surprised at anything you do, Insect Court, except respecting the rights of Palestinians and so far, I've yet to be surprised. It's easy to be in favor of "peace" in theory; who isn't? But it's the actual details that matter. If the vast majority of Israelis are opposed to any actual peace plan(even a plan that maintains Israeli apartheid and even allows Israel to keep some of its most important illegal settlements), it means they, as a whole, don't support peace. quote:Want to take a guess how Palestinian polled support for a two-state solution would change if you prefaced it with a clause stating it meant abandoning the return of Palestinian refugees? You're assuming an equivalency that simply doesn't exist; by robbing the victims of the Nakba of their right to return, you are denying millions of Palestinians their fundamental human rights. By handing over East Jerusalem in accordance with the internationally-recognized borders, you are violating nobody's rights and simply returning land to its rightful owner, the Palestinian nation. Most Palestinians support a 2 state solution and many of those who don't support an egalitarian single state solution even if there is an embittered fringe that Palestinians will need to either repress or win over (or both) in order to ensure a peaceful transition. Palestinians have become increasingly skeptical of the 2 state solution largely because the whole Oslo process has led to nothing but further entrenchment of apartheid and because Israel has continued to build illegal colonies at a frenzied pace, rendering a Palestinian state increasingly unfeasible. quote:And please don't move the goalposts, since you were the one insisting that the idea that anti-Zionists aren't more opposed to a two state solution than Zionists is "completely wrong". Roughly 2/3 of Palestinians support the Arab Peace Initiative, the only serious peace plan presented in recent memory(one that is purposefully vague on the question of the Right of Return, allowing plenty of room for negotiation.) Jewish Israelis, by a large margin, oppose any 2 state solution that involves creating a viable Palestinian state(even though it wouldn't be a state according to the Montevideo definition). Palestinians consistently report that peace with Israel is their number one political priority. On the other hand, Israel reacted to the prospect of peace with Palestine by assassinating its (pro-apartheid) PM and voting in the hardline Likud party, later dismissing the Arab Peace plan out of hand. Personally, I think at this point, the only feasible and just solution is a one state solution that ends apartheid once and for all, granting equal rights for all citizens, be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Druze or other and welcoming both diaspora communities of the Levant, Jews and Palestinians. After decades of occupation and apartheid, it seems less and less likely that an independent Palestinian state is possible, given the growth of illegal colonies(many of whose residents are willing to kill in order to prevent the evacuation of said colonies), the theft of the West Bank's natural resources and the economic warfare that has made the Palestinian economy hopelessly dependent on Israel. That said, any attempt to blame Israel's failure to end apartheid and/or the occupation on Palestinian intransigence is just bullshit. Israel has failed to make peace because it has chosen not to or because its political culture is incapable of doing so, given the entrenched interests in favor of occupation and the widespread, institutionalized racism that wracks Israeli society. That's why BDS is so important; Israel will make peace when and only when it is forced to by external pressure. quote:Yeah, about that hypothetical "stupid loving person" being ignorant of Gandhi's stance on nonviolence and the Holocaust... That sounds a lot like how you think Palestinians should react to apartheid and the gradual ethnic cleansing of their remaining lands.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:19
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FreshlyShaven posted:That sounds a lot like how you think Palestinians should react to apartheid and the gradual ethnic cleansing of their remaining lands. He's a regular Gandhi.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:23
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Watching The Gatekeepers because it was mentioned in this thread. I think the worst thing that ever happened to Israel is that they won.
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Jan 23, 2016 03:47
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In my opinion Gandhi is right. I think the mass suicide of millions of Jews would have been the greatest artistic gesture of the twentieth century. Perhaps the thing that would have finally tipped off the population, "Genocide is bad." Meanwhile it's seventy years on and nobody seems to know that anyway, least of all us. Imagine the impact of a million half-rotted Jews washing up on the shores of Brighton, UK's tourism industry would have been shattered, and if Einstein had self-immolated we wouldn't have to be delivered to the chronic universal self-immolation that is nuclear weapons. No I'm joking the end result was not the same because the Holocaust finally and irrevocably drove the creation of Israel, our most precious asset and the source of our civilisation... but what is Israel except another object? Every grain of sand in the Negev desert is just an object. If you take it away it's just sand. Israel the land is just sand, it's just a billion molecules of mineral packed into stone and built on. Ariel told me that the sacred Israel is in inside the Jews; Israel is Us, the land is just an empty eggshell and wherever we spread we are sacred. In time we'll have to go to Mars and where will Israel be then? There can't be a New Israel if you argue that only Israel is Israel. We die with the planet, and the planet isn't long for this world.
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Jan 23, 2016 06:07
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Mark Knopfler and EmmyLou Harris's collab album is really beautiful and I'd recommend it to anyone who likes slightly melancholic western folk although a few tracks are inevitably a bit cheesy (even cheesy can be good in certain contexts though).
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Jan 23, 2016 06:09
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gently caress wrong thread Gut Shabbos
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Jan 23, 2016 06:10
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Avshalom posted:gently caress wrong thread You have the one true av back. All is right with the world
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Jan 23, 2016 09:46
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Ultramega posted:You haven't really contributed anything to this discussion other than reminding people, far more succinctly but less ably than some other posters, that yes in fact not everything the palestinians do w/r/t confronting israeli oppression is blameless. Hey, at least I'm contributing.
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Jan 23, 2016 10:58
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Baloogan posted:Hey, at least I'm contributing. True, it is a tiny step up from whining about D&D moderator bias 24/7.
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Jan 23, 2016 12:57
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The moderators are biased against, not Zionists, but people who have enlightened views about Zion (the true Zion, not the physical bricks and mortar, it's an allegory as are so many other Torah stories)
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Jan 23, 2016 13:43
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pharaoh pharaoh let my people go without probations
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Jan 23, 2016 14:16
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When Avshalom was in D&D's land: Let my people go.
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Jan 23, 2016 16:45
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Avshalom posted:The moderators are biased against, not Zionists, but people who have enlightened views about Zion (the true Zion, not the physical bricks and mortar, it's an allegory as are so many other Torah stories) Zion is a trick we are all still in the Matrix. Oh Pharaoh let that trilogy end better.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:05
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13 year old refugee girl shot dead trying to stab an Israeli security guardquote:An Israeli security guard shot dead a knife-wielding 13-year-old Palestinian girl on Saturday outside the West Bank settlement of Anatot, also known as Almon, police said. Even stories devoid of specifics like this get to me quite a bit. I can imagine this girl being brought up her entire life in a tent refugee camp, under foreign occupation, and after an argument with the family snapping and going off to do something about it only to get gunned down accomplishing nothing and it's loving heartbreaking.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:08
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