A.o.D. posted:

Summary: quirks should be location specific, and more strongly emphasize a mech's role.

In MWO, what decides how good a mech can be is a factor of speed, mech geometry, weapon location, weapon slot availability, and hitboxes. On top of that, you have a quirk layer that improves or hampers a mech. With that said, the first factors I mentioned are the most important. At this time, it looks as though the Marauder is a good robot, and it is not particularly strongly quirked. The Stormcrow has no positive quirks of note, and yet it's widely accepted as the best medium mech. The awesome is a strongly quirked mech, and yet it doesn't see meaningful play at almost any level of the game.

Furthermore, quirks as they stand now tend to not take into account the mounting location of the weapon systems they benefit, nor do they properly reward role specialization. Let's look at a few examples:

The Jaegermech JM6-S is the inner sphere's best heavy dakka boat. It is strongly quirked and has outstanding high gunmounts that can clear almost any terrain the pilot can see over. You can fit 2x AC/20s, 2x gauss rifles, 4x UAC/5s, or almost any other ballistic configuration you can conceive of. A similar mech is the Cataphract CTF-4x. It also has 2 ballistic mounts in its arms. However, it doesn't have enough room to mount an AC/20, and those arm mounts are much closer to the ground than the Jaegermech's. It has to completely expose itself if it wants to shoot at range. Furthermore, compared to the Jaegermech, the Cataphract 4x's quirks are essentially non-existent. Basically, the CTF-4x has absolutely no reason to exist. There is nothing it does better or differently than the similar Jaeger, and in fact comes with max engine penalties. It has a nearly useless head missile slot, and 2 fewer energy mounts, and those that it does have are critically space limited.

Basically, the Cataphract needs a really hard looking at. It's in a bad place. In order to be effective in the same game as the Jaeger, it needs stronger quirks, possibly on the order of 50 to 100% stronger.

Furthermore, with the numbers of mechs ever increasing, PGI needs to look at the roles mechs should fulfill. With the release of the Warhammer tomorrow, now's a good time to compare the Warhammer and the Marauder. Both mechs are very energy weapon focused, with a few small differences: Several marauders can fit jumpjets, but can't make full use of their torsos. The Marauder has a massive side profile, but can make excellent use of one side to shield the other. The Warhammer doesn't shield as well, but presents a much narrower profile in an engagement, and has enough torso slots to operate with a dead side. Ultimately, both mechs operate in the same tactical space, which are as heavy energy boats that allow for tanky play style. Currently the real difference is if you want a high autocannon/laser mount, or if you want a high missile mount with lots of torso utilization. I think that a better differentiation would be to give the mechs more clearly defined roles through quirks. Both mechs are heavy support platforms, but Warhammers have always been more brawly and better defended. I'd remove the WHM's mobility quirks and instead give it moderate general purpose energy quirks and strong structure boosts. The Marauder, since it's more of a stand off mech, and has jump jets and less protection, would receive better mobility quirks, and weapon quirks that were more focused on PPCs and Large Lasers (depending on the specific mech) at the cost of removing or reducing general energy bonuses.

In short, decide what a mech's role is, and focus quirks on that role.

Finally, I think that quirks should be locked to a specific location on a mech. A warhammer has large, vulnerable, and low slung PPC arms. It also has a gob of torso energy hardpoints that are tighter to the center axis and mounted higher up on the mech. If I were building a WHM, I'd absolutely put my main guns on the torso, and either ignore or place secondary weapons in the arms.

Under the current system, why even bother to model the arms on the mech in the first place? If you pilot a WHM the way it was designed, you have to stand out in the open on a hill to use your main guns. There's very little reason to take on that risk when you could place your guns in a much more advantageous location. Make it so that when you have weapons in vulnerable locations, they really do extra work. Give MASSIVE velocity, rate of fire, and heat bonuses to PPCs mounted in those arms, but weapons mounted elsewhere don't get those benefits. Make it worth it to stand your mech out in the open so that you can use your best weapon systems. Mechs that can fire all their guns while only exposing a sliver of themselves should enjoy nowhere near the benefit that a mech that has to stand and deliver.

tl;dr: there is no tl;dr

A.o.D. posted:

A.o.D. posted:

Summary: quirks should be location specific, and more strongly emphasize a mech's role.

In MWO, what decides how good a mech can be is a factor of speed, mech geometry, weapon location, weapon slot availability, and hitboxes. On top of that, you have a quirk layer that improves or hampers a mech. With that said, the first factors I mentioned are the most important. At this time, it looks as though the Marauder is a good robot, and it is not particularly strongly quirked. The Stormcrow has no positive quirks of note, and yet it's widely accepted as the best medium mech. The awesome is a strongly quirked mech, and yet it doesn't see meaningful play at almost any level of the game.

Furthermore, quirks as they stand now tend to not take into account the mounting location of the weapon systems they benefit, nor do they properly reward role specialization. Let's look at a few examples:

The Jaegermech JM6-S is the inner sphere's best heavy dakka boat. It is strongly quirked and has outstanding high gunmounts that can clear almost any terrain the pilot can see over. You can fit 2x AC/20s, 2x gauss rifles, 4x UAC/5s, or almost any other ballistic configuration you can conceive of. A similar mech is the Cataphract CTF-4x. It also has 2 ballistic mounts in its arms. However, it doesn't have enough room to mount an AC/20, and those arm mounts are much closer to the ground than the Jaegermech's. It has to completely expose itself if it wants to shoot at range. Furthermore, compared to the Jaegermech, the Cataphract 4x's quirks are essentially non-existent. Basically, the CTF-4x has absolutely no reason to exist. There is nothing it does better or differently than the similar Jaeger, and in fact comes with max engine penalties. It has a nearly useless head missile slot, and 2 fewer energy mounts, and those that it does have are critically space limited.

Basically, the Cataphract needs a really hard looking at. It's in a bad place. In order to be effective in the same game as the Jaeger, it needs stronger quirks, possibly on the order of 50 to 100% stronger.

Furthermore, with the numbers of mechs ever increasing, PGI needs to look at the roles mechs should fulfill. With the release of the Warhammer tomorrow, now's a good time to compare the Warhammer and the Marauder. Both mechs are very energy weapon focused, with a few small differences: Several marauders can fit jumpjets, but can't make full use of their torsos. The Marauder has a massive side profile, but can make excellent use of one side to shield the other. The Warhammer doesn't shield as well, but presents a much narrower profile in an engagement, and has enough torso slots to operate with a dead side. Ultimately, both mechs operate in the same tactical space, which are as heavy energy boats that allow for tanky play style. Currently the real difference is if you want a high autocannon/laser mount, or if you want a high missile mount with lots of torso utilization. I think that a better differentiation would be to give the mechs more clearly defined roles through quirks. Both mechs are heavy support platforms, but Warhammers have always been more brawly and better defended. I'd remove the WHM's mobility quirks and instead give it moderate general purpose energy quirks and strong structure boosts. The Marauder, since it's more of a stand off mech, and has jump jets and less protection, would receive better mobility quirks, and weapon quirks that were more focused on PPCs and Large Lasers (depending on the specific mech) at the cost of removing or reducing general energy bonuses.

In short, decide what a mech's role is, and focus quirks on that role.

Finally, I think that quirks should be locked to a specific location on a mech. A warhammer has large, vulnerable, and low slung PPC arms. It also has a gob of torso energy hardpoints that are tighter to the center axis and mounted higher up on the mech. If I were building a WHM, I'd absolutely put my main guns on the torso, and either ignore or place secondary weapons in the arms.

Under the current system, why even bother to model the arms on the mech in the first place? If you pilot a WHM the way it was designed, you have to stand out in the open on a hill to use your main guns. There's very little reason to take on that risk when you could place your guns in a much more advantageous location. Make it so that when you have weapons in vulnerable locations, they really do extra work. Give MASSIVE velocity, rate of fire, and heat bonuses to PPCs mounted in those arms, but weapons mounted elsewhere don't get those benefits. Make it worth it to stand your mech out in the open so that you can use your best weapon systems. Mechs that can fire all their guns while only exposing a sliver of themselves should enjoy nowhere near the benefit that a mech that has to stand and deliver.

tl;dr: there is no tl;dr

Number19 posted:

Localized quirks are something I've asked about a lot and they're unfortunately not possible with the current weapons system. As far as my understanding goes, weapons stats are a per mech thing, not a per weapon thing. It would take some significant rewrites to make that change and it might not even be possible without tearing down the weapons code and rebuilding it from the ground up.

This same root issue is why ammo switching for LB-X autocannons isn't possible. A weapon has one ammo type and one fire mode. Again, perhaps it can be extended some day but it will require some pretty serious work and might require a ground up rework of the system to implement.

TeeMerk posted:

well, get to it! Workday isn't even over for you yet!

Number19 posted:

Localized quirks are something I've asked about a lot and they're unfortunately not possible with the current weapons system. As far as my understanding goes, weapons stats are a per mech thing, not a per weapon thing. It would take some significant rewrites to make that change and it might not even be possible without tearing down the weapons code and rebuilding it from the ground up.

This same root issue is why ammo switching for LB-X autocannons isn't possible. A weapon has one ammo type and one fire mode. Again, perhaps it can be extended some day but it will require some pretty serious work and might require a ground up rework of the system to implement.

Internet Explorer posted:

Number 19, now that you've fixed brawling I have another impossible task for you. Can you please make it so that modules, etc. are selected when you drop? That way we don't have to constantly go into the mech lab or buy multiple very expensive modules for each mech we pilot. Thanks Number 19!

A.o.D. posted:

Seriously, as soon as the Warhammer drops, I'm going to turn one of them into a 2x AC/20 warham. I mean, yeah, that'll be fun, but it's not a warhammer.

Number19 posted:

The Boomhammer is slow and not a very good robot IMO

Endbuster posted:

The Arctic Cheetah is such overpowered bullshit. I just carry the poo poo out of games in it. Had yet another 3v1 game against a blackjack, cheetah, and jagermech. Wrecked em all. What a stupid mech. On mining collective you are unkillable.

ZenVulgarity posted:

what's your name in game

Endbuster posted:

The Arctic Cheetah is such overpowered bullshit. I just carry the poo poo out of games in it. Had yet another 3v1 game against a blackjack, cheetah, and jagermech. Wrecked em all. What a stupid mech. On mining collective you are unkillable.

teepo posted:

agreed. my kdr is like a loving 8 on that thing. it's beyond stupid and needs to be nerfed to hell

Endbuster posted:

I have like 150 games on it, and am at 6 KDR. Its just a stupid powerhouse with its mobility. I actually facechecked a BJ-1X (I had no leg and an open torso) and just torso ROLLED twisted his alpha for crazy damage spread then shot his cockpit. Its a loving dumb mech.

teepo posted:

the funny thing is that before i -- and assumingly you -- came back, it had some structure and laser heat quirk buffs. take a second and imagine how much of a powerhouse it was then

i can understand the kdr monkeys who want to use it for stat padding not complaining, but i can't understand how nobody else really says poo poo about it. people are too accepting of how amazing of a mech it is even though it's one of the most broken mechs in the game

teepo posted:

well, i think they removed the quirk buffs the second it became available for c-bills. go figure

Endbuster posted:

The Arctic Cheetah is such overpowered bullshit. I just carry the poo poo out of games in it. Had yet another 3v1 game against a blackjack, cheetah, and jagermech. Wrecked em all. What a stupid mech. On mining collective you are unkillable.

ZenVulgarity posted:

Does PGI do refunds if you really hate a hero mech

Anita Dickinme posted:

As far as I know, yes. Say what you will about PGI, their customer support is actually really good.

Reztes posted:

Is the solo kill award exactly what it says, or is there just some threshold above like 75% of damage dealt or something? I've gotten it in a few fights where there is just no loving way I could have been the only guy to hit somebody but I still got the solo kill bonus when they died.

TheParadigm posted:

I'm gonna do this - there's a few that i'm really not liking. Which customer support email gets success with this?

Sard posted:

I think I was in that match, I was rolling around with a group from my friend's ArmA clan messing about with my Panther. I alt-tabbed after dying and seeing it was one guy versus a handful of them, and came back to see [11|11] and the last guy on our team was a Jagermech hiding in a corner. This was his first time playing in years and he had arm lock on, so he couldn't elevate the LB10-X to shoot you.

Endbuster posted:

Nah I wasn't around then. I can't imagine it was better than it is now. Def could use a lil nerf.

Starkk posted:

So I reinstalled, haven't played since ghost heat was announced. I have like 17.5 mill cb, what is the meta like these days? What should my first clan mech be? I like assaults and have master Atlii so I'm thinking Dire Wolf? Maybe Timber Wolf?

Endbuster posted:

Wait until poo poo is on cbill sale if you're gonna go hoss on them 'spensive clan mechs. Right now (ending tomorrow at like, 10am) there is a sale, and there are some hot rides. Blackjacks, Firestarters, Quickdraws, etc etc.

The meta is wonky, cause SRMs were buffed and poo poo is tanky for IS mechs, so you can feasibly build a team of dick punchers and run hot spearheads if your team is with you. Also, lasers... crazy laser boats are everywhere. They are considered "meta." The most crazy laser boats would be Timberwolves, Quickdraws, Blackjacks, Artic Cheetahs, Battlemasters, Thunderbolts, Hellbringers, and stuff like that.

Starkk posted:

So I reinstalled, haven't played since ghost heat was announced. I have like 17.5 mill cb, what is the meta like these days? What should my first clan mech be? I like assaults and have master Atlii so I'm thinking Dire Wolf? Maybe Timber Wolf?

Starkk posted:

How often are they running cbill sales?

Bait and Swatch posted:

Going to jump in and recommend the 5 aSRM6 stalker if you want a solid assault for brawling that's not a ghost dad atlas.

Endbuster posted:

Dunno. Just got back in myself, but been tearing it up... There have been two cbill sales over the holidays. The current one is the 2nd one. The timberwolves were on sale like, 18 days ago. Dunno when they are gonna go on sale again