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Waffles Inc. posted:both the robots and clones are being used as tools; they're both slaves to causes that don't even know the real reasons they're fighting. it's overtly political. Actually they are, in the films, individually irrelevant, disposable things nobody in the audience or the film has any reason to care about whatsoever, essentially mindless aside from an instinct for self-preservation. Yes, they are being used as tools, but so are toasters and vacuum cleaners, and I don't weep when somebody breaks one of those unless it's been previously established that they are adorable characters with thoughts and feelings
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Jan 19, 2016 20:11
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Short shots aren't inherently bad, but I did find myself being annoyed that the good shots in TFA are barely given any time to be taken in before being interrupted by a cut or by unnecessary sweeping camera movements. This is something I often feel watching JJ Abrams movies. It's a movie that looks better in stills than in motion. Yeah; my issue with Force Awakens is not the cinematography, which is consistently aight, but the rapid-fire editing that doesn't suit the material at all (as it did in Star Trek 2009, where the basic thesis was that technology is becoming bewilderingly complex). Let's go into the specifics of what Rey's house represents: The dead ATAT is obviously a callback to Empire Strikes Back and the recurring womb and rebirth imagery in that film. The dead ATAT effectively combines the image of Luke being shoved into the dead tauntaun with the later scene of Luke attaching himself to the mech's belly with an umbilicus-like cable. In other words, Rey is afraid to leave the quiet comfort of this artificial mother. The scene is also a reference to when Jar Jar steps in the poo poo in Phantom Menace. Rey is deliberately placed at the bottom of the creature's foot, meaning that she's treating herself like poo poo. (The image of being stomped on by a giant foot is familiar from plenty of films - especially The Lost World). So the editing should be underlining her passivity. The point of the sequence - as in the entire film - is that she's doing this to herself. Rey isn't forced into poverty; she's slumming. She chooses to live in the fake mother because she thinks she deserves it, not because she has no choice. This doesn't come across because we have little or no time to contemplate what's going on. People, understandably, just conclude that Rey is poor and miss the entire self-punishment thing (and, consequently, the extreme classism that courses through the film).
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Jan 19, 2016 20:13
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But the separatist droids ARE adorable characters with thoughts and feelings. You see them reason about situations and express fear when they are about to be mercilessly slaughtered. I even know some of their names surprisingly: T17-2, D32, and Captain D12-87!
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Jan 19, 2016 20:14
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Yorkshire Tea posted:This is amazing, we've got a new SMG but he agrees with my opinions. No, SMG understands what he is talking about.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:14
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Serf posted:Droids vs. clones is a very interesting idea. Two armies of slaves forced to fight a war they have no stake in? I care a lot about what happens to them. That and droids are basically clones anyway. They're all based off of a master template.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:15
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Tezzor posted:an extremely popular, comprehensive and influential film criticism 
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Jan 19, 2016 20:15
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Serf posted:Droids vs. clones is a very interesting idea. Two armies of slaves forced to fight a war they have no stake in? I care a lot about what happens to them. Yeah who could ever forget Nameless Superbattledroid #48597-X and his zero lines of dialogue. Maybe he was planning to start a fusion restaurant and take care of his dear sick mother after the war before Obi Wan absentmindedly cut through him without a second thought. The Tragedy Of War
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Jan 19, 2016 20:16
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Tezzor posted:Actually they are, in the films, individually irrelevant, disposable things nobody in the audience or the film has any reason to care about whatsoever, essentially mindless aside from an instinct for self-preservation. Yes, they are being used as tools, but so are toasters and vacuum cleaners, and I don't weep when somebody breaks one of those unless it's been previously established that they are adorable characters with thoughts and feelings through all three prequel films, droids of various kinds--including battle droids--display personalities a battle droid sasses qui-gon in the naboo hanger a serving droid calls obi-wan "sweetie" battle droids throw their arms up and scurry around making scared sounds on grievous' ship a battle droid kicks R2 out of frustration droids in star wars clearly have thoughts and feelings
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Jan 19, 2016 20:17
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Waffles Inc. posted:through all three prequel films, droids of various kinds--including battle droids--display personalities Good thing we spend so much time with these intensely memorable characters exploring their thoughts and dreams and personal relationships so that when they die we really feel the horror and futility of war lol
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Jan 19, 2016 20:21
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Tezzor posted:Yeah who could ever forget Nameless Superbattledroid #48597-X and his zero lines of dialogue. Maybe he was planning to start a fusion restaurant and take care of his dear sick mother after the war before Obi Wan absentmindedly cut through him without a second thought. The Tragedy Of War Sorry, but battle droids are cute as heck and have distinctive, silly personalities. They also act in a human-like manner (cowering before Obi-Wan as he murders them).
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Jan 19, 2016 20:21
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Lt. Danger posted:No, SMG understands what he is talking about. ...do you read his posts? According to SMG the humans of Naboo somehow drove the Gungans off the best real estate on the planet, despite the fact the Gungans have a bigger army and are an amphibious species. And don't get me started on the Marx.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:22
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Waffles Inc. posted:droids in star wars clearly have thoughts and feelings Wait, we're still arguing this? I don't understand how you can watch the movies and think any different.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:23
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When did any of the foot soldiers in the originals or TFA demonstrate any personality at all? I mean, the guys coordinating the attacks and the main characters do, and the various pilots do, but I can't think of any ground troops that have much personality. Best I can think of is that Rebel commando in Return of the Jedi who dressed up as a Stormtrooper off-screen when we see he's been captured.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:23
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The Clone Wars series is canon TV show with heavy involvement from Lucas and the droids soldiers in it have tons of personality. But we also see it in Force Awakens itself with the "TRAITOR!" trooper (note how he COULD have just shot Finn instead of getting his attention but he specifically wants to beat him down), but I think in general we'll see more of this since Rogue One is a thing now.Neurolimal posted:You can not have epilepsy and still prefer to not have your TV constantly strobe white flashes of light every .5 seconds. 1/19/2016, Peak goon hyperbole achieved. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 20:25
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Tezzor posted:Good thing we spend so much time with these intensely memorable characters exploring their thoughts and dreams and personal relationships so that when they die we really feel the horror and futility of war lol this but unironically Basebf555 posted:Wait, we're still arguing this? I don't understand how you can watch the movies and think any different. haha i was wondering the same thing, but tezzor is just doing his thing i guess? i don't know his gimmick
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Jan 19, 2016 20:25
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Why does this thread attract so many crazies
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Jan 19, 2016 20:25
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Battle droids are hilarious. And then there's the clone in Revenge of the Sith who says "When have I ever let you down?" They've got personalities in abundance. It's certainly possible to tell dramatic, personal, character-driven stories where a bunch of identical nameless clone soldiers are in focus. The good cartoon Clone Wars did it all the time. However, the Star Wars prequels proper are not telling that story. They're telling a story about the particular bastards who committed the crime of taking millions of slaves and sending them to their ignominious deaths for a questionable at best reason in contradiction of their principles, and the man who hated them. SuperMechagodzilla posted:The dead ATAT is obviously a callback to Empire Strikes Back and the recurring womb and rebirth imagery in that film. The dead ATAT effectively combines the image of Luke being shoved into the dead tauntaun with the later scene of Luke attaching himself to the mech's belly with an umbilicus-like cable. In other words, Rey is afraid to leave the quiet comfort of this artificial mother. Especially The Empire Strikes Back, which has Luke almost getting stomped by an AT-AT.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:27
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Beeez posted:When did any of the foot soldiers in the originals or TFA demonstrate any personality at all? I mean, the guys coordinating the attacks and the main characters do, and the various pilots do, but I can't think of any ground troops that have much personality. Best I can think of is that Rebel commando in Return of the Jedi who dressed up as a Stormtrooper off-screen when we see he's been captured. The two guys who Leia and the Ewok take out in RotJ have personalities I guess. When the first guy goes down the other guy is like "oh poo poo", and he hauls rear end to get on his speeder bike.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:28
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tezzor would you have preferred this but with battle droids? would that have properly shown the futility of war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFa014b6EBk
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Jan 19, 2016 20:28
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Beeez posted:When did any of the foot soldiers in the originals or TFA demonstrate any personality at all? I mean, the guys coordinating the attacks and the main characters do, and the various pilots do, but I can't think of any ground troops that have much personality. Best I can think of is that Rebel commando in Return of the Jedi who dressed up as a Stormtrooper off-screen when we see he's been captured. You're not meant to care about the rebel foot soldiers that die on Hoth, they're left behind the same way they leave the ice planet behind. The rebels on Endor are similarly irrelevant because the Ewoks win the battle and they do show volumes of personality. TFA is harder, but you've got the traitor soldier and phasma.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Let's go into the specifics of what Rey's house represents: Luke escapes the crushing foot of the AT-AT in Empire, where as Rey is being held in place by her fear of abandonment.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:29
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Yorkshire Tea posted:...do you read his posts? According to SMG the humans of Naboo somehow drove the Gungans off the best real estate on the planet, despite the fact the Gungans have a bigger army and are an amphibious species. And yes, the idea that the clones and droids are disposable tools to their masters that nevertheless have feelings is the point. Hell, even in the scene you brought up with Boba Fett and Jango's helmet it comes up: Fett may be an amoral mercenary, but he did everything that he did so that he could raise a son. They genuinely show affection for each other, but both sides treat them as utterly disposable and unworthy of even the faintest notice. I'm sorry that you cannot muster up any emotions for someone unless you're explicitly told that you're supposed to feel them.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:30
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I've never seen someone look at a shot where all the characters are in the center of the frame and say 'this is bad because rule of thirds!' before. Even then, rewatching AOTC, there's shittons of shots and camera moves that create a sense of chaos by snatching away your points of reference. But this always enhances the feel of the scene, for example when Obi-Wan is falling to his doom or Anakin is trying to make him sick by flying super-recklessly as a joke. Consequently this makes it very easy to say 'this shot sucks because I can't see what's going on' - but cinema's ability to defy its own guidelines and make you feel uncomfortable or lost are cool in themselves.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:31
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Neurolimal posted:Let's be fair here, if somebody tells me they didn't at least smile at that line from the video then they are either a liar or inhuman Yeah it actually is hilarious. Tezzor posted:Yeah, what a terrible thing for me to do, to cite a funny line from an extremely popular, comprehensive and influential film criticism that captures and explores the general consensus on the issue. What was I thinking. Surely there's some inane SMG barf I could quote that's more up your alley No I was being serious, every post of yours is just dripping with vitriol (see above) as well a stubborn unwillingness to give credit to any single thing from the prequels. The RLM quote was just like sprinkles and a cherry on top. I am extremely entertained right now, I hope this goes on for awhile.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:32
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Basebf555 posted:The two guys who Leia and the Ewok take out in RotJ have personalities I guess. When the first guy goes down the other guy is like "oh poo poo", and he hauls rear end to get on his speeder bike. I guess that's something. Waffles Inc. posted:tezzor would you have preferred this but with battle droids? would that have properly shown the futility of war Didn't know this Ewok had a name. It is legitimately upsetting. Yorkshire Tea posted:You're not meant to care about the rebel foot soldiers that die on Hoth, they're left behind the same way they leave the ice planet behind. The rebels on Endor are similarly irrelevant because the Ewoks win the battle and they do show volumes of personality. Phasma is a commanding officer, but yeah, I guess the "Traitor!" guy counts.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:34
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Battle droids in Star Wars may have thoughts and feelings but the film never gives me any reason to care about them except as comical, G-rated lightsaber targets working under the orders of the bad guys so why should I give a drat about this fact that is objectively true but never of any relevance in the film? Actual human beings on the other side in war and action films also objectively have thoughts and feelings but the audience isn't made to care about them unless we spend a lot of time with at least one of them and give them an in-depth, at least somewhat sympathetic portrayal. Same with the notion of a Slave Army of Clones. If we spend a lot of time with a clone and his buddies we become sympathetic to the issues raised here. The clone wars cartoon does this on occasion. The films do not. The Deep Philosophical Questions about the moral consequences of a clone army are not to be found anywhere in the film. They're just replaceable and literally indistinguishable cannon fodder who out of nowhere turn evil and kill all the actual heroes we care about, and not because they rebelled, but because a gross warlock was controlling their minds. What an arc
Tezzor fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 20:35
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Tezzor posted:Good thing we spend so much time with these intensely memorable characters exploring their thoughts and dreams and personal relationships so that when they die we really feel the horror and futility of war lol It's a two hour film, get real. Obviously a movie about the droids specifically would focus more on them, but that doesn't mean they automatically are devoid of personality because they don't have top billing or screen time. The droids show tons of personality throughout every Star Wars movie. Like as an example if we look at a canonical Star Wars series explicitly about slavery and people being too dumb to realize the futility of war... 3m39s, though the entire episode is relevant to this discucssion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnnm3BUo3Nk&t=3s "I bet you sold out your brothers for some real shiny coin eh?" "Yes, she offered me money. But she offered me something more important. Something you wouldn't understand. Freedom!" Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 20:39
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Tezzor posted:the film never gives me any reason to care about them How unfortunate for you.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:39
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Tezzor posted:Battle droids in Star Wars may have thoughts and feelings but the film never gives me any reason to care about them except as comical, G-rated lightsaber targets working under the orders of the bad guys so why should I give a drat about this fact that is objectively true but never of any relevance in the film? Actual human beings on the other side in war and action films also objectively have thoughts and feelings but the audience isn't made to care about them unless we spend a lot of time with at least one of them and give them an in-depth, at least somewhat sympathetic portrayal. Same with the notion of a Slave Army of Clones. If we spend a lot of time with a clone and his buddies we become sympathetic to the issues raised here. The clone wars cartoon does this on occasion. The films do not. The Deep Philosophical Questions about the moral consequences of a clone army are not to be found anywhere in the film. They're just replaceable cannon fodder who turn evil and kill all the actual heroes we care about, and not because they rebelled, but because because a gross warlock was controlling their minds. What an arc Is it impossible to feel for people who are forced to fight in a war for someone else? Because that's where it all stems from for me. The droids and the clones weren't given a choice, and it's not like they'll get to retire when the war is over. Their lives suck, and I have sympathy for them. I think we're supposed to feel bad for them once we realize that droids and clones are still people.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:40
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Tezzor posted:Battle droids in Star Wars may have thoughts and feelings but the film never gives me any reason to care about them except as comical, G-rated lightsaber targets working under the orders of the bad guys so why should I give a drat about this fact that is objectively true but never of any relevance in the film? Actual human beings on the other side in war and action films also objectively have thoughts and feelings but the audience isn't made to care about them unless we spend a lot of time with at least one of them and give them an in-depth, at least somewhat sympathetic portrayal. Same with the notion of a Slave Army of Clones. If we spend a lot of time with a clone and his buddies we become sympathetic to the issues raised here. The clone wars cartoon does this on occasion. The films do not. The Deep Philosophical Questions about the moral consequences of a clone army are not to be found anywhere in the film. They're just replaceable and literally indistinguishable cannon fodder who out of nowhere turn evil and kill all the actual heroes we care about, and not because they rebelled, but because a gross warlock was controlling their minds. What an arc A New Hope was made with the intention that the story would be directly from the perspective of the droids. You were expected to take the lessons learned in the OT and carry it over to the prequels. Then when you see them being used as soldiers with no say so about their own lot in life(I feel like somebody used that line but I can't remember who)you should remember that they're basically people and feel bad.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:41
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Serf posted:Is it impossible to feel for people who are forced to fight in a war for someone else? Because that's where it all stems from for me. The droids and the clones weren't given a choice, and it's not like they'll get to retire when the war is over. Their lives suck, and I have sympathy for them. I think we're supposed to feel bad for them once we realize that droids and clones are still people. The robots will probably get to be retired. 
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Jan 19, 2016 20:42
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Remember when SMG used the rule of thirds to dispute Avengers looking like poo poo and everyone slurped on his cock but here OMG THE PREQUELS ARE PRECIOUS BABYS IT DOESNT APPLY.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:43
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Vintersorg posted:Remember when SMG used the rule of thirds to dispute Avengers looking like poo poo and everyone slurped on his cock but here OMG THE PREQUELS ARE PRECIOUS BABYS IT DOESNT APPLY. Honestly no I don't remember that and wouldn't have taken part in it. So there.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:44
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RBA Starblade posted:The robots will probably get to be retired.  Sometimes Star Wars is dark as gently caress.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:45
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Vintersorg posted:Remember when SMG used the rule of thirds to dispute Avengers looking like poo poo and everyone slurped on his cock but here OMG THE PREQUELS ARE PRECIOUS BABYS IT DOESNT APPLY. I certainly don't remember you offering a good defense of Avengers. Care to try?
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Jan 19, 2016 20:45
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If have to ask "well what's in it for me?" when we say Obiwan shouldn't execute unarmed prisoners because he views them as subhuman, in a film where the morality of executing prisoners is a recurring theme, then you have already failed. Obiwan killing the unarmed droids for no reason - which, we should note, is what causes the ship to crash - is similar to when Luke kills the enslaved monster at the start of Return Of The Jedi, and it's treated as a joke. Later, when Luke has grown as a character, he chooses to die rather than kill an enslaved monster. The nuance of the prequels is that, in a film that ends with Darth Vader in his black mask, we start the film with a brave and heroic firefighter who looks like this:  He prevents the ship that Obiwan crashed from exploding.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:46
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Serf posted:Is it impossible to feel for people who are forced to fight in a war for someone else? Because that's where it all stems from for me. The droids and the clones weren't given a choice, and it's not like they'll get to retire when the war is over. Their lives suck, and I have sympathy for them. I think we're supposed to feel bad for them once we realize that droids and clones are still people. I don't think the movie does enough to evoke this feeling among the audience. Their deaths are frequently played for laughs which literally creates the opposite feeling. If you'd wanted to create that kind of sympathy, then non-comedic interactions between droids should probably have been displayed. Similarly among the clones if you're trying to get across that their lives suck then you should actually display that.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:46
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Hbomberguy posted:I certainly don't remember you offering a good defense of Avengers. Care to try? Avengers is poo poo. It was a running theme, "Bad Shot of the Day" in the comic book thread. Comparing Avengers to Man of Steel (and sometimes other things).
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Jan 19, 2016 20:47
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Speaking of, you dudes remember Order 66, right? Wow, what a thing. Lucas had been working on the prequel films for six years by the time he wrote that. He claimed to have the basic idea of the plot of these films all figured out by the late 1980s. But when it's time to kill all the Jedi it's whoops, deus ex machina plot device that has never been established at all. What a waste of a storytelling opportunity out of sheer lazy and incompetent writing. Wouldn't this be cool: Early in episode 2 somebody hears Senator Palpatine talking about Order 66. They ask him what it is and he laughingly brushes them off with some excuse. Or even earlier, at the beginning of in episode 1 the Most Dishonabaru Space Chinamen are asking Sidious about Order 66 and he says the tests have been successful. Or, gently caress, at least some mention within Episode 3. Anyway, Obi-Wan or Padme or whoever investigates over time and slowly discovers the horrible truth just as it's too late. Nope. Just: Hey. Kill all the Jedi because of a thing we haven't seen before. Great stuff
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Jan 19, 2016 20:50
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Everybody slow down and take a look at this: http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2016/01/18/photos-heckler-koch-ar500-builds-mandalorian-ballistic-armor/
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Jan 19, 2016 20:52
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