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Neo Rasa posted:
When did I use any hyperbole? I was presenting alternate examples following this silly logic of "people who don't like busy scenes are physically sick" Did you think I was talking about the PT from the first one? Not sure how you would make that mistake genuinely.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:52
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Serf posted:Is it impossible to feel for people who are forced to fight in a war for someone else? Because that's where it all stems from for me. The droids and the clones weren't given a choice, and it's not like they'll get to retire when the war is over. Their lives suck, and I have sympathy for them. I think we're supposed to feel bad for them once we realize that droids and clones are still people. We have no reason to feel sympathy for them. We don't have any individual member of them to connect with. We don't see their pain or their dreams or any struggle against their programming. Literally not a single one of them matters at all at any point.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:53
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Yorkshire Tea posted:I don't think the movie does enough to evoke this feeling among the audience. Their deaths are frequently played for laughs which literally creates the opposite feeling. You start seeing how the lives of the clones suck as soon as they're introduced on Kamino. Tubes of fetuses, rows of little Jangos at desks, wires all stuck in their heads. You realize that's it. That's their entire lives. They live in a place where they all see the same face, they get trained to kill, then they go out into the world to die. This is mirrored on Geonosis where we follow the process of constructing battle droids. It's nothing but fire and whirling pieces of metal. C-3P0 ends the sequence getting his head stuck onto a battle droid's body. They're just suddenly alive, and all they're made to do is kill, just like the clones. It's equally horrific. Neither side in the war will use volunteers and there's no droid in Star Wars that isn't sapient. So they grow/build living, thinking troops and make them fight their battles rather than do it themselves. I think the sadness and awfulness of it is evident every time we see the war.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:53
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Tezzor posted:We have no reason to feel sympathy for them. We don't have any individual member of them to connect with. We don't see their pain or their dreams or any struggle against their programming. Literally not a single one of them matters at all at any point. Why are you treating the prequels as if their completely isolated from the OT? None of the feelings you had for Threepio or R2 apply to the battle droids? The OT established everything we need to know about the sentience of droids in Star Wars.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:56
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Vintersorg posted:Remember when SMG used the rule of thirds to dispute Avengers looking like poo poo The difference is that I used the terms correctly. Also, as it happens, that's not what "dispute" means. Yorkshire Tea posted:I don't think the movie does enough to evoke this feeling among the audience. Their deaths are frequently played for laughs which literally creates the opposite feeling. Comedy is the obverse of horror. That's the whole point: the droids get comically awful treatment. People keep talking about 'empathy' because they haven't graduated to 'love'. We love the battle droids, in all their frailty.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:56
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Tezzor posted:Speaking of, you dudes remember Order 66, right? Wow, what a thing. Lucas had been working on the prequel films for six years by the time he wrote that. He claimed to have the basic idea of the plot of these films all figured out by the late 1980s. But when it's time to kill all the Jedi it's whoops, deus ex machina plot device that has never been established at all. What a waste of a storytelling opportunity out of sheer lazy and incompetent writing. Wouldn't this be cool: Early in episode 2 somebody hears Senator Palpatine talking about Order 66. They ask him what it is and he laughingly brushes them off with some excuse. Or even earlier, at the beginning of in episode 1 the Most Dishonabaru Space Chinamen are asking Sidious about Order 66 and he says the tests have been successful. Or, gently caress, at least some mention within Episode 3. Anyway, Obi-Wan or Padme or whoever investigates over time and slowly discovers the horrible truth just as it's too late. Nope. Just: Hey. Kill all the Jedi because of a thing we haven't seen before. Great stuff inorite? Picture this: when Vader lands in Cloud City, Boba Fett says that he saw his son leaving Mos Eisley. Or early in A New Hope, we have Grand Moff Tarkin asking Vader how his kids are, and Vader brushes him off. "Your interest in my children is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." Nope, total surprise when Vader springs it on Luke. Great stuff
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Jan 19, 2016 20:56
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Tezzor posted:We have no reason to feel sympathy for them. We don't have any individual member of them to connect with. We don't see their pain or their dreams or any struggle against their programming. Literally not a single one of them matters at all at any point. That's a pretty callous way to look at it.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:57
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Serf posted:You start seeing how the lives of the clones suck as soon as they're introduced on Kamino. Tubes of fetuses, rows of little Jangos at desks, wires all stuck in their heads. You realize that's it. That's their entire lives. They live in a place where they all see the same face, they get trained to kill, then they go out into the world to die. There's a lot of racism towards Clone and Droid culture and reproduction in here. Geez.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:57
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Serf posted:You start seeing how the lives of the clones suck as soon as they're introduced on Kamino. Tubes of fetuses, rows of little Jangos at desks, wires all stuck in their heads. You realize that's it. That's their entire lives. They live in a place where they all see the same face, they get trained to kill, then they go out into the world to die. Like I really don't get that from it. The cloning facilities are at worst comparable to a decently supplied modern military base which is by no means a terrible place to live relative to the really dogshit places on earth. I hope you can understand what I mean. I understand conceptually what is being done is wrong, but there is very little that is emotive about the shots that makes me feel that it is. Just one interaction with a Clone feeling fear before being press ganged into fighting would have done a lot to convey the message.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:57
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The ordinary battle droids pretty consistently try to get people to surrender by default, rather than opening fire. If anything, they are more "civilized" than the clones.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:00
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Like I really don't get that from it. The cloning facilities are at worst comparable to a decently supplied modern military base which is by no means a terrible place to live relative to the really dogshit places on earth. I hope you can understand what I mean. I understand conceptually what is being done is wrong, but there is very little that is emotive about the shots that makes me feel that it is. I just can't get past the fact that they're manufacturing slaves to fight in a war that has no good ending for them.The jarring part, to me, is that the movies depict this like it's totally okay. No one comments on the horror of the situation, everyone just accepts it. I dunno whether Lucas intended it to be that way or not but it totally works for me. Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I really like the Clone Wars show for showing battle droids and clones just going about their business and developing the overall character of both sides. It enhances my appreciation of the films. E: homullus posted:The ordinary battle droids pretty consistently try to get people to surrender by default, rather than opening fire. If anything, they are more "civilized" than the clones. Yeah, as mentioned, those surrendering battle droids in ROTS are huge. Clones are never shown to surrender or have doubts, which the droids seem to have constantly.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:03
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Dispute means to argue or are you going to tell me something else SMG. How far does your contrarian rabbit hole go!
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Jan 19, 2016 21:06
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"Comedy does not rely on the undermining of our dignity with reminders of the ridiculous contingencies of our terrestrial existence; comedy is, on the contrary, the full assertion of universality, the immediate coincidence of universality with the character’s/actor’s singularity. That is to say, what effectively happens when, in a comedy, all universal features of dignity are mocked and subverted? The negative force that undermines them is that of the individual, of the hero with his attitude of disrespect towards all elevated universal values, and this negativity itself is the only true remaining universal force. And does the same not hold for Christ? All stable-substantial universal features are undermined, relativized, by his scandalous acts, so that the only remaining universality is the one embodied in Him, in his very singularity. The universals undermined by Christ are 'abstract' substantial universals, while the 'concrete' universality is the very negativity of undermining abstract universals." -Zizek This is the role of the droids and, later, Vader. The comedy of the droids is the comedy of incarnation: God Himself is a droid, with no dignity whatsoever: a piece of poo poo on Jar Jar's foot. The same logic is at work with the 'prawns' in District 9. Vintersorg posted:Dispute means to argue or are you going to tell me something else SMG. It means to argue against something. I was not arguing against Avengers being bad; I was showing that it was bad.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:07
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Neurolimal posted:There's a lot of racism towards Clone and Droid culture and reproduction in here. Geez. Some people just can't appreciate the beauty of a good singularity engine.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:09
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Neurolimal posted:Let's be fair here, if somebody tells me they didn't at least smile at that line from the video then they are either a liar or inhuman I don't watch the RLM trash at all so I though Tezzor made this up himself. Color me disappointed.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:14
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as someone who dislikes the prequels order 66 just happening is something i like and think was a good thing
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Jan 19, 2016 21:17
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What's the deal with that droid control ship in TPM, anyway? The battledroids, like basically every other droid in Star Wars, have personalities, act independently, etc. There's even droid officers who give orders to other droids and confer with one another! So what, exactly, is the droid control ship controlling that just makes all the droids turn off when it blows up?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:18
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Empress Theonora posted:What's the deal with that droid control ship in TPM, anyway? The battledroids, like basically every other droid in Star Wars, have personalities, act independently, etc. There's even droid officers who give orders to other droids and confer with one another! So what, exactly, is the droid control ship controlling that just makes all the droids turn off when it blows up? That one was unique. To save on costs they gave the droids a hivemind. After Anakin blew it up they realized that was a lovely idea.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:19
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Ok. Hahaha.  Not gonna argue about a goddamn dictionary definition. Again, we all loved the Avengers getting (rightfully so) torn down but not here because the prequels are the greatest cinematic accomplishment that runs so deep not even Lucas knew the genius he was putting on screen.  (( im the jedi with my light saber directly over my head and open to any shot coming for me ))
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Jan 19, 2016 21:19
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Basebf555 posted:Why are you treating the prequels as if their completely isolated from the OT? None of the feelings you had for Threepio or R2 apply to the battle droids? The OT established everything we need to know about the sentience of droids in Star Wars. No? I'm not disputing that battle droids are sentient, I'm saying that it doesn't matter if they are or not because we're given no reason to care about them whatsoever, and in fact their deaths and mangling are comic relief more than anything else. I have feelings for the droids for the OT because they are distinct characters who matter and who the movie spends a lot of time with. Battle Droid # 45,191 is not. Human beings are indisputably sentient. Do you care as much about Rebel Pilot Whose A-Wing Gets Shot and He Goes Aaauuugh and Blows Up as you do about Luke Skywalker? Why or why not?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:20
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I cri everytiem
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Jan 19, 2016 21:21
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When I realized Porkins would never eat another piece of fried space chicken that was when I truly understood what war is.quote:I cri everytiem What is that?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:22
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homullus posted:inorite?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:23
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so how long did this thread actually discuss the new movie? 3 weeks?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:24
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why do so many of you spergs have to be explicitly told how to feel about two armies being forced to fight one another like some perverse galactic loving rock 'em sock 'em robots? for god's sake you see thinking and feeling beings being made explicitly to fight in a futile war why does the movie have to spell out for you why that's bad and you should pity them?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:25
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Empress Theonora posted:What's the deal with that droid control ship in TPM, anyway? The battledroids, like basically every other droid in Star Wars, have personalities, act independently, etc. There's even droid officers who give orders to other droids and confer with one another! So what, exactly, is the droid control ship controlling that just makes all the droids turn off when it blows up? Like Anakin, the droids are designed with dead-man's killswitches if they ever escape. Think of when evil Cypher unplugs people's brains in the Matrix.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:25
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I just realized the much funnier joke I should have made was that Droid B2-124523 was only two weeks from retirement.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:26
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Tezzor posted:No? I'm not disputing that droids are sentient, I'm saying that it doesn't matter if they are or not because we're given no reason to care about them whatsoever, and in fact their deaths and mangling are comic relief more than anything else. I have feelings for the droids for the OT because they are distinct characters who matter and who the movie spends a lot of time with. Battle Droid # 45,191 is not. Human beings are indisputably sentient. Do you care as much about Rebel Pilot Whose A-Wing Gets Shot and He Goes Aaauuugh and Blows Up as you do about Luke Skywalker? Why or why not? I have to admit I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. But to answer your question, yes I cared about Porkins and all the rest who get shot down and those scenes were borderline disturbing to me as a little kid. Those guys were dying fiery deaths and its scary. Did I care about them as much as Luke? Who knows but I don't really see how that's relevant. Anyway, if it registered to you that they're sentient, that should be enough for you to feel sympathy for them. I'm not sure why you'd need anything else.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:26
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Go Tezzor, CineD's new forums superstar!
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Jan 19, 2016 21:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Like Anakin, the droids are designed with dead-man's killswitches if they ever escape. Maybe it's the galaxy's biggest restraining bolt.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:27
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PBS Newshour posted:so how long did this thread actually discuss the new movie? 3 weeks? "this new film is basically just a reshoot of ANH"-- 2 weeks "Kylo Ren: intimidating or not?" -- 3 weeks
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Jan 19, 2016 21:28
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Waffles Inc. posted:why does the movie have to spell out for you why that's bad and you should pity them? A lack of basic empathy. It's more understandable with droids because we're used to seeing robots as non-living fodder. But Star Wars droids are shown over and over again to be people.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:28
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homullus posted:inorite? But Vader being Luke's father is a surprise to the audience. It's not a surprise that Palpatine is evil or that he somehow kills all the Jedi. Even if you go in with no pre-existing knowledge of Star Wars the fact that they're portrayed by the same guy and everything Sidious does keeps getting Palpatine more power are huge tipoffs. I've literally heard more stories of people being surprised by the ending of Titanic than by Palpatine being evil. If they mention Order 66 we can infer that it's some evil plan that Sidious has, probably to kill all the Jedi, but how does it work? What is it, exactly? That creates an interesting mystery plot that ties the movie or movies together and gives a character besides Anakin something to do. Also, as a smaller point, your counterexample presupposes that George Lucas had the slightest idea that Vader was Luke's father during the writing of A New Hope, which is pretty funny.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:29
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If droids are people, then one of my favorite movies has a slave auction, and that's Not Okay.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:30
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computer parts posted:If droids are people, then one of my favorite movies has a slave auction, and that's Not Okay. droids are people and yeah its a slave auction
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Jan 19, 2016 21:30
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Vintersorg posted:I cri everytiem That trashcan thing sounds like there's a jawa or ewok stuck inside it.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:31
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computer parts posted:If droids are people, then one of my favorite movies has a slave auction, and that's Not Okay. Seriously, go back and watch that scene and tell me its not a slave auction. Well, maybe not technically an auction since Owen has no bidding competition.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:31
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computer parts posted:If droids are people, then one of my favorite movies has a slave auction hosed up but true
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Jan 19, 2016 21:32
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Serf posted:A lack of basic empathy. So we're supposed to care about the thousands of battle droids in the Clone Wars cartoon that get horribly killed each episode?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:32
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PBS Newshour posted:so how long did this thread actually discuss the new movie? 3 weeks? Much less than that. When you eliminate all the sequel speculation and "I'm sure they'll explain it in the next film", discussion of Force Awakens probably totals ten pages.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:32
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