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Who counts as white? I think only people who were included in the white category back when it was first created should be considered white: namely English people and maybe Germans and Dutch or whatever. My own ancestors came from the Iberian Peninsula so Imma go ahead and duck out of being white if y'all don't mind.
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Jan 20, 2016 05:43
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mlmp08 posted:Hm, yes, good hot take here. Suburbs are by definition not rural areas though. SO it does not matter in the least if the rural 19% of the country is heavily white as to whether whites are moving back to the cities (which they are)
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Jan 20, 2016 05:46
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blackguy32 posted:But this is the point of the article. Bernie is perfectly willing to call for pie in the sky stuff that has no chance in hell of passing but when it comes to combating white supremacy, all of a sudden he becomes a pragmatist. The argument was made in the Dem thread that his pie in the sky stuff enjoys widespread popular support. It's fair point, I think. (I am for reparations)
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Jan 20, 2016 05:51
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Blue Star posted:Who counts as white? I think only people who were included in the white category back when it was first created should be considered white: namely English people and maybe Germans and Dutch or whatever. My own ancestors came from the Iberian Peninsula so Imma go ahead and duck out of being white if y'all don't mind. smh. This is the result of our drat country not having a white history month. drat kids dont even know who the first white man was: JESUS
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Jan 20, 2016 05:52
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blackguy32 posted:But this is the point of the article. Bernie is perfectly willing to call for pie in the sky stuff that has no chance in hell of passing but when it comes to combating white supremacy, all of a sudden he becomes a pragmatist. But that's horseshit, no one thought health care reform had a chance of passing when Obama ran. A lot of Sanders's planks are popular among the populace, which is why Sanders is calling for massive amounts of people going to the polls (aka the hyperbolic political revolution) and voting in Democrats. Reparations? 6% support among white voters. 15% among Americans overall. I agree it's something that should be discussed, but you're really better off teaching history in schools, instead of letting Texas re-write it with each new textbook edition.
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Jan 20, 2016 05:55
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blue squares posted:The argument was made in the Dem thread that his pie in the sky stuff enjoys widespread popular support. It's fair point, I think. (I am for reparations) Yeah, this is the thing. Bernie Sanders isn't some radical revolutionary, and what makes him interesting is that he's able to push a platform significantly to the left of the Democratic mainstream while actually building something that resembles real support. Supporting every leftist cause ever no matter how unpopular is just going to dump him into the same bucket as every other third party candidate that manages to pull a fraction of a percent of the vote. It's silly to accuse him of suddenly abandoning his ideals and becoming pragmatic when you're really asking why he isn't willing to commit political suicide and lose whatever influence he does have. Keeping in mind that I'm not even a Bernie supporter and I basically agree with what you're saying. I just feel like it's silly to equate single player and reparations because the gulf in popular support between them is absolutely massive.
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Jan 20, 2016 05:57
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Venom Snake posted:Really? Because lately in the D.C. metro area people have been moving closer in as the traffic gets worse. Gentrification is everywere. Some people maybe have been moving there, but very few can afford it. New home construction is loving bonkers in the suburbs all the way out to Winchester and down to Fredericksburg. I work with new home builders and in the last year my business has picked up a ton as their "plans" have become more and more aggressive. Richmond is the same way. I started working with a community in the west end in April when they broke ground, and I ended up buying a home in that community in October (still being built atm) and I got one of the last two lots left. You just don't see that growth in cities. The other thing I've seen is an explosion new apartments being built. It's amazing to watch them pop up year over year on google earth as they update the satellite images. None of those are in metro areas.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:03
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fishmech posted:Suburbs are by definition not rural areas though. SO it does not matter in the least if the rural 19% of the country is heavily white as to whether whites are moving back to the cities (which they are) OK, but white people are still overrepresented in suburbs and underrepresented in cities. http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2011/5/04%20census%20ethnicity%20frey/0504_census_ethnicity_frey.pdf This may change over time, but the idea that whites are fleeing to cities en mass is a bit premature. edit: I lose, failed to look at username before engaging.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:05
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blue squares posted:The argument was made in the Dem thread that his pie in the sky stuff enjoys widespread popular support. It's fair point, I think. (I am for reparations) I love that the phrase "pie in the sky" is being used to describe progressive social programs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qoB1XwtHM
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Jan 20, 2016 06:08
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Blue Star posted:Who counts as white? I think only people who were included in the white category back when it was first created should be considered white: namely English people and maybe Germans and Dutch or whatever. My own ancestors came from the Iberian Peninsula so Imma go ahead and duck out of being white if y'all don't mind. Germans weren't white, they were swarthy. Along with the tawny race, Ben Franklin wanted to keep them out. quote:Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion. quote:"Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation…and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ’tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain…Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it…I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties...In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious."
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Jan 20, 2016 06:08
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mlmp08 posted:OK, but white people are still overrepresented in suburbs and underrepresented in cities. http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2011/5/04%20census%20ethnicity%20frey/0504_census_ethnicity_frey.pdf I wonder if there's data on suburban->exurb white flight. Like a second wave of scared lily-rear end racists moving out into the loving sticks because they saw one too many black children at MacKinzey and Braedyn's school this year and being 30 minutes from groceries is worth the homogeneity.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:11
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Is Brayden popular now? I know only one Brayden kid and he's Pacific Islander.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:16
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mlmp08 posted:Is Brayden popular now? I know only one Brayden kid and he's Pacific Islander. The only ones I've ever been introduced to were maladjusted little shits that looked like a composite sketch drawn off someone who got raped by Justin Bieber after watching a bunch of Joffrey-centric GoT episodes. Their parents were the shittiest stereotypical enabler types, too. I live in the Midwest, though, so regional proclivity might explain part of it.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:21
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FAUXTON posted:I wonder if there's data on suburban->exurb white flight. Like a second wave of scared lily-rear end racists moving out into the loving sticks because they saw one too many black children at MacKinzey and Braedyn's school this year and being 30 minutes from groceries is worth the homogeneity. Couldn't find any data easily, but I think you can put one and one together and draw conclusions that approach two pretty easily. That said, it might take until the next Census to get a good racial breakdown to prove that, so take it with a grain of salt. It's entirely possible both blacks and whites are moving to different exurbs for reasons of their own that produce de facto segregation.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:22
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The most recent data has suburban growth accelerating and urban growth slowing as well, so I wouldn't really be surprised if some of that is white flight. Might also just be normal demographic stuff too.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:27
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"drat, they let you wear a sweatshirt, I had to wear a tie" is great
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Jan 20, 2016 06:30
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FAUXTON posted:The only ones I've ever been introduced to were maladjusted little shits that looked like a composite sketch drawn off someone who got raped by Justin Bieber after watching a bunch of Joffrey-centric GoT episodes. Their parents were the shittiest stereotypical enabler types, too. I live in the Midwest, though, so regional proclivity might explain part of it. 21st century white people names are just another line in the long list of crimes against humanity committed by white people. But but my special little snowflake needs a special unique name. 
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Jan 20, 2016 06:32
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Paradoxish posted:Might also just be normal demographic stuff too. Gentrification waves be pricing most people out of the city. Also, I've hated that subtle racism that makes "African" names a target of ridicule, but poo poo like Braeyn or Qrystle or Apple the loving peak of new age enlightened organic parenting. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 06:34
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Combed Thunderclap posted:That said, it might take until the next Census to get a good racial breakdown to prove that, so take it with a grain of salt. It's entirely possible both blacks and whites are moving to different exurbs for reasons of their own that produce de facto segregation. What will the new census ask? iirc in 2010 they scrapped a lot of the stuff from 2000.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:35
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You can't just start trying to make any sort of settlement in reparation for past wrongs so egregious that they cripple communities to this day. You can target programs to alleviate poverty in black communities, pass laws prohibiting the sort of discrimination in housing, banking and community funding that are actually enforced with an iron fist for a change. And of course total Federal oversight in matters of police violence and discrimination. For starters. I think land/monetary redistribution would be a mistake though. Aside from causing another civil war, (depending on the degree of redistribution) it seems that no matter how much was given, nothing could repay the Native Americans in that very regard. Which would be utterly necessary if true reparations were ever done. Basically, I don't think we could ever balance the ledger. Ever. What we can do, is make drat sure we don't forget or forgive what was done. Genocide and Slavery will always be a stain on our national character, and we should continue to do whatever we can feasibly do to alleviate the effects our fathers and forefathers wrought.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:37
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Aliquid posted:What will the new census ask? iirc in 2010 they scrapped a lot of the stuff from 2000. The next census is going to be menacingly underfunded and will probably suck.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:39
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Paradoxish posted:
And single payer healthcare along with stuff like universal pre-k would do more to help the long term prosperity of black communities than a check for $30,000.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:46
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Rand alPaul posted:But that's horseshit, no one thought health care reform had a chance of passing when Obama ran. A lot of Sanders's planks are popular among the populace, which is why Sanders is calling for massive amounts of people going to the polls (aka the hyperbolic political revolution) and voting in Democrats. Healthcare reform BARELY passed and that is with a super majority in Congress and a much better ran DNC. Also just because poo poo is popular doesn't mean it turns into meaningful votes. I have yet to see anything about Saunders beyond what you are saying, and I am seeing plenty of reasons to not unenthuiastic about him.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:49
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GalacticAcid posted:The next census is going to be menacingly underfunded and will probably suck. Well it came in under budget last time so duh it doesn't need all of that money. Also if it came in on budget or over budget that means there's room to cut costs so it doesn't need all of that money either.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:52
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blackguy32 posted:Healthcare reform BARELY passed and that is with a super majority in Congress and a much better ran DNC. Also just because poo poo is popular doesn't mean it turns into meaningful votes. I have yet to see anything about Saunders beyond what you are saying, and I am seeing plenty of reasons to not unenthuiastic about him. Barely is a very liberal use of the word. And the public option failed because of a few conservative Democrats who got trounced in the two midterms. GalacticAcid posted:The next census is going to be menacingly underfunded and will probably suck. NASA is building new rockets with peanuts for a budget.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:53
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So I've had some time on my hands lately and I've been getting restless. Then this morning someone posted an article about the Oklahoma tax cuts and corresponding cuts to education it had me spinning all day until I got to a point where I sat down to type out a rant of sorts on cost of education and Millennials. Would anyone care to read it if I posted it here?
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Jan 20, 2016 06:53
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Boon posted:So I've had some time on my hands lately and I've been getting restless. Then this morning someone posted an article about the Oklahoma tax cuts and corresponding cuts to education it had me spinning all day until I got to a point where I sat down to type out a rant of sorts on cost of education and Millennials. Would anyone care to read it if I posted it here? Long posts are always welcome dude
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Jan 20, 2016 06:54
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Typical Pubbie posted:And single payer healthcare along with stuff like universal pre-k would do more to help the long term prosperity of black communities than a check for $30,000. That's great but when your schools are literally falling apart due to local negligence because your own state hates you.... Basically the problem is so complex it requires plans that specifically target minority communities because well as much as it sucks to say this more people in America would be fine with socialism as long as they were assured it wasn't going to any non-whites. Voters are also more interested in how you will personally help them which is why the Clintons have historically had a good relationship with the black community.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:54
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Talmonis posted:You can't just start trying to make any sort of settlement in reparation for past wrongs so egregious that they cripple communities to this day. You can target programs to alleviate poverty in black communities, pass laws prohibiting the sort of discrimination in housing, banking and community funding that are actually enforced with an iron fist for a change. And of course total Federal oversight in matters of police violence and discrimination. For starters. I generally agree with this, but I'm pretty white. I don't know what to make of the whole situation, and the thought of it does make me uncomfortable. I mean maybe it's a name thing? Like if you created programs specifically to help out African Americans I'd be all for that, but calling them reparations, it gets complicated. I can certainly understand why African Americans would want the punitive nature of that, I just don't know if there's ever a world where that happens. I don't know enough about my families personal history, but I don't feel right about punishing the child for the sins of the parent. If there are cases where the people involved are still alive, they absolutely should be. But I don't like punishment carried out over generations, no matter who did what. Education and understanding what happened is vital, the fact that we don't teach about the Red Summer for example is heinous. And we should work to make things better today and for the future and that starts with the lovely situation our police are in. I suppose this makes me a lovely moderate who is first against the wall.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:56
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blackguy32 posted:Healthcare reform BARELY passed and that is with a super majority in Congress and a much better ran DNC. Also just because poo poo is popular doesn't mean it turns into meaningful votes. I have yet to see anything about Saunders beyond what you are saying, and I am seeing plenty of reasons to not unenthuiastic about him. Health insurance reform barely passed after it was watered down to the point that many of its backers barely gave a gently caress about it anymore, and it became an almost entirely symbolic victory because of the name it was given. I'm guessing Sanders will do a little bit better this time because he's not taking a million checks from Pharma, nor would he let Max Baucus shout down and arrest people trying to get the Public Option (which I believe was the third compromise of the bill) discussed in a hearing open to the public. Again, Coates's argument fails because Sanders is actually sincere in trying to get this poo poo passed. He's not just running as a gimmick. Rand alPaul fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 06:58
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Rand alPaul posted:Health insurance reform barely passed after it was watered down to the point that many of its backers barely gave a gently caress about it anymore, and it became an almost entirely symbolic victory because of the name it was given. I'm guessing Sanders will do a little bit better this time because he's not taking a million checks from Pharma, nor would he let Max Baucus shout down and arrest people trying to get the Public Option (which I believe was the third compromise of the bill) discussed in a hearing open to the public. I know several people that would be dead if it wasn't for Obamacare. Calling it a symbolic victory is defeatist as gently caress.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:04
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ohgodwhat posted:Well it came in under budget last time so duh it doesn't need all of that money. The Prospect did a good writeup on the situation here.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:06
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I think Coates's argument fails because reparations could only be paid for by taxing working class Americans including non-whites. The argument is always framed as being about white supremacy, as if Asians and Hispanics wouldn't be the least bit resentful. It's a moot point though because you couldn't pass reparations with a hundred Democrats in the Senate which is what Sanders means when he says the chance of passing such a bill is nil.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:11
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Boon posted:until I got to a point where I sat down to type out a rant of sorts on cost of education and Millennials.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:20
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Typical Pubbie posted:I think Coates's argument fails because reparations could only be paid for by taxing working class Americans including non-whites. The argument is always framed as being about white supremacy, as if Asians and Hispanics wouldn't be the least bit resentful. It's a moot point though because you couldn't pass reparations with a hundred Democrats in the Senate which is what Sanders means when he says the chance of passing such a bill is nil. That's because it's being framed as white people giving reparations to black people, when in actuality it is (or should be framed as) America as a country. This country wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't built on the backs of black people. Everybody benefits from that whether they realize it or not. Therefore it coming out of everyone's taxes is justified.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:24
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Rand alPaul posted:Health insurance reform barely passed after it was watered down to the point that many of its backers barely gave a gently caress about it anymore, and it became an almost entirely symbolic victory because of the name it was given. I'm guessing Sanders will do a little bit better this time because he's not taking a million checks from Pharma, nor would he let Max Baucus shout down and arrest people trying to get the Public Option (which I believe was the third compromise of the bill) discussed in a hearing open to the public. This is an example of the strange idea that the President can pass whatever legislation he likes as long as he has sufficient will power to pass it. Like even if it's true that Bernie isn't taking a million checks from Big Pharma, what's stopping people in Congress from receiving those checks instead?
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Jan 20, 2016 07:28
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Rand alPaul posted:Health insurance reform barely passed after it was watered down to the point that many of its backers barely gave a gently caress about it anymore, and it became an almost entirely symbolic victory because of the name it was given. I'm guessing Sanders will do a little bit better this time because he's not taking a million checks from Pharma, nor would he let Max Baucus shout down and arrest people trying to get the Public Option (which I believe was the third compromise of the bill) discussed in a hearing open to the public. It really wasn't just health insurance reform as it affected things done by hospitals as well. Also you are ignoring that it was Max Baucus who was the holdout over the public option, it was Joe Lieberman, and he wasn't going to run for reelection anyways. As for Ta-Nehisi Coates, his argument is spot on. This is why Sanders doesn't get it. quote:And those positions with which she might not agree address black people not so much as a class specifically injured by white supremacy, but rather, as a group which magically suffers from disproportionate poverty. Our problems go so much deeper than simply poverty, he points this out in the next paragraph quote:This is the “class first” approach, originating in the myth that racism and socialism are necessarily incompatible. But raising the minimum wage doesn’t really address the fact that black men without criminal records have about the same shot at low-wage work as white men with them; nor can making college free address the wage gap between black and white graduates. Housing discrimination, historical and present, may well be the fulcrum of white supremacy. Affirmative action is one of the most disputed issues of the day. Neither are addressed in the “racial justice” section of Sanders platform. This is the poo poo he got reamed for at his Seattle rally and the whole reason he adopted the racial justice plank in his party platform. Remember, this is the guy who always brings up the fact that he marched with MLK, yet, his dealings with race, I find lacking overall. I also think people are being a bit narrow minded about the article because despite how focused discrimination was and how it affects minorities, all we are getting is just basic stuff that really doesn't target people affected by such discrimination.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:29
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Koalas March posted:That's because it's being framed as white people giving reparations to black people, when in actuality it is (or should be framed as) America as a country. I agree but if you look at support for reparations you don't get numbers that low without a majority of minority support being against such a program, and yet Coates is portraying it as a battle against white supremacy. For that matter, you can't get numbers that low without a sizable minority of black people being against reparations.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:30
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Whether or not he can get it through congress, there's a decent chance Bernie can get half the country to support his crazy ideas. If he added reparations to the list, there wouldn't even be a chance that he'd make it to the white house. I think the right answer is 'fund a huge government study to fully understand the issue', which is half a commitment that wouldn't turn too many people off and would be in line with TNC's ideas
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Jan 20, 2016 07:39
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Boon posted:So I've had some time on my hands lately and I've been getting restless. Then this morning someone posted an article about the Oklahoma tax cuts and corresponding cuts to education it had me spinning all day until I got to a point where I sat down to type out a rant of sorts on cost of education and Millennials. Would anyone care to read it if I posted it here? I would enjoy that. You should post it. Pretty much any long post not about uber/guns/chicago is awesome. edit: Is there any way Sanders could do what FDR did with his fireside chats if he were elected? Don't news networks have to allow the president time to address the country per year outside of the state of the union?
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Jan 20, 2016 07:42
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