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Ensign Expendable posted:The fun thing about that is that the uniforms and basic weapons were likely in a warehouse in Moscow. Also the fuel. Also good luck. Yeah. What I mean to get across is that mobilisation is a vastly more complex process than 'guy with military training picks up a rifle and is ready to go to war'. We're talking about suddenly moving hundreds of thousands to millions of men from their homes to places which you hope will still be your territory by the time they get there, at some point along the way they need to be met by their hundreds of thousands to millions of rifles, uniforms and other assorted military equipment which is similarly moving from a warehouse somewhere and using the same transport infrastructure. Oh, they'll probably want to eat something during this whole process so you need to make sure there's food getting to them throughout and it would probably help with the actual war-fighting bit if they have a bit of time at the end to train back their skills and get to trust the people you've sent them to fight with. This is nightmarishly complex even when it's 1914 and you've spent years doing nothing but planning your mobilisation schedules down to the minute each train has to leave each station. When it's 1941 and the Eastern Front is falling back a dozen kilometres a day and you don't really have any trains to spare because all the factories and warehouses are being evacuated then you start to get an appreciation for the absolutely superhuman effort STAVKA put in just to stay in the fight.
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Jan 20, 2016 00:44
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Alchenar posted:When it's 1941 and the Eastern Front is falling back a dozen kilometres a day and you don't really have any trains to spare because all the factories and warehouses are being evacuated then you start to get an appreciation for the absolutely superhuman effort STAVKA put in just to stay in the fight. I remember reading one of the "I remember" Russian memoirs, and the guy says that when his area was being overrun, the Soviets rounded up all the men aged 14+ or so (including him) and sent them back east so that they wouldn't "lose" that manpower when they were ready to be conscripted. Does show some forethought to removing valuable manpower resources as well as factories, food, munitions and stuff.
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Jan 20, 2016 03:58
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sullat posted:I remember reading one of the "I remember" Russian memoirs, and the guy says that when his area was being overrun, the Soviets rounded up all the men aged 14+ or so (including him) and sent them back east so that they wouldn't "lose" that manpower when they were ready to be conscripted. Does show some forethought to removing valuable manpower resources as well as factories, food, munitions and stuff. Withdrawing and letting the enemy starve/freeze himself to death in the steppe is something Russia was good at since at least the Napoleonic era 
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Jan 20, 2016 04:11
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Alchenar posted:Yeah. What I mean to get across is that mobilisation is a vastly more complex process than 'guy with military training picks up a rifle and is ready to go to war'. Also apparently the mail was always delivered on time during all of this, according to the memoirs of the Jewish Polish Soviet soldier.
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Jan 20, 2016 04:30
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FAUXTON posted:Withdrawing and letting the enemy starve/freeze himself to death in the steppe is something Russia was good at since at least the Napoleonic era The Russian armies in pursuit of the retreating French in 1812 almost suffered just as much in the record breaking freezing conditions. The only differences being though, they were allowed to live off the land and weren't being pursued by Cossacks.
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Jan 20, 2016 04:40
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SeanBeansShako posted:The Russian armies in pursuit of the retreating French in 1812 almost suffered just as much in the record breaking freezing conditions. The only differences being though, they were allowed to live off the land and weren't being pursued by Cossacks. And Napoleon's army wasn't allowed it why? Raenir Salazar posted:Also apparently the mail was always delivered on time during all of this, according to the memoirs of the Jewish Polish Soviet soldier. War might be war, but I have letters to deliver, comrade
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Jan 20, 2016 07:02
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JcDent posted:And Napoleon's army wasn't allowed it why?
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Jan 20, 2016 07:07
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JcDent posted:And Napoleon's army wasn't allowed it why? Rural Russia has miles and miles of simply barren land that doesn't grow much food, the farms they did encountered chances are the harvest was long gone as it was now winter. Any peasant village they encountered was more or less abandoned, the serfs long fled into the ranks for the partians or militia units. What little food the soldiers could get was too little or just wasted and discarded into the snow. What little they had or stored invading Russia and retreating from Moscow was consumed or wasted as discipline utterly broke down. Napoleons soldiers resorted to eating their own dead at points and the flesh and blood of their slowly dying mounts.
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Jan 20, 2016 07:11
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JcDent posted:And Napoleon's army wasn't allowed it why? The Russians burned everything as they withdrew, and Cossack forces were constantly harassing French foraging parties. Once the withdrawal from Moscow began, Russian action forced them to retreat along the same devastated corridor they had advanced along, meaning there was even less in the way of supply on the return journey.
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Jan 20, 2016 08:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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JcDent posted:And Napoleon's army wasn't allowed it why? Didn't Russian mailmen have Nagant revolvers until 1995 or something? It warms my heart that some nations treasure going postal 
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Jan 20, 2016 09:11
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PittTheElder posted:The Russians burned everything as they withdrew, and Cossack forces were constantly harassing French foraging parties. Once the withdrawal from Moscow began, Russian action forced them to retreat along the same devastated corridor they had advanced along, meaning there was even less in the way of supply on the return journey. Why did Napoleon come back the way he came? Why couldn't he say, March to St Petersburg then down the batlic cost back to Poland?
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Jan 20, 2016 09:12
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Your avenues of maneuver are somewhat limited if one of your directions of march leads you into the sea.
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Jan 20, 2016 11:42
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nothing to seehere posted:Why did Napoleon come back the way he came? Why couldn't he say, March to St Petersburg then down the batlic cost back to Poland? Going north from Moscow during the onset of Russian winter is unlikely to be popular.
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Jan 20, 2016 12:40
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nothing to seehere posted:Why did Napoleon come back the way he came? Why couldn't he say, March to St Petersburg then down the batlic cost back to Poland? Napoleon chose to move back to his supply base at Smolensk and over-winter there, instead of staying in the burnt our wreck of Moscow. He didn't want to go back down the same road, his plan was go South-west, past most of the wrecked area and then turn back north to Smolensk. Unfortunately for him the Russians tried to block this route off at the cross roads at Maloyaroslavets and after a pretty indecisive battle the Russians withdrew from the village but still held the ridge guarding the south road. Napoleon gave up on his original idea and decided not to push the Russians off the ridges (or try a risky river crossing) and so went back the way he had come and retraced his steps back past Borodino. In hindsight Napoleon should have persisted and thrown the Russians back off the ridge and carried on down the south road. Edit: I think Napoleon didn't want to go towards St Petersburg because I am not sure he was confident of taking the city which would probably have required Naval support.If he did take the city he would also have opened himself up to the British and Russian Navy blockading him from the sea and the Russian army from the land. PlantHead fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 12:42
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FAUXTON posted:Withdrawing and letting the enemy starve/freeze himself to death in the steppe is something Russia was good at since at least the Napoleonic era I know, but generally you leave your own peasants behind to starve and burden the enemy armies, too. Having the foresight to pull out future conscripts shows a level of dedication to continuing the war above and beyond merely scorching the earth.
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Jan 20, 2016 15:09
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FAUXTON posted:Withdrawing and letting the enemy starve/freeze himself to death in the steppe is something Russia was good at since at least the Napoleonic era I just wanted to chime in, it happened to Sweden around 100 years before Napoleon. I may make an effort post about it if I find the time.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:06
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Tias posted:Didn't Russian mailmen have Nagant revolvers until 1995 or something? It warms my heart that some nations treasure going postal The mail service eliminated their Nagant revolvers in 2003 and the bailiff security service removed them in 2009. The Ukrainian police and security services retired them in 2008.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:08
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Some pictures from long ago, in a part of the world that my Dad loving hated. He hated the climate, the sand, the people, everything about it except he said he wouldn't have missed it for anything. A photo-journal of a British Royal Engineer, 8th Army. 1938 to 1943 or so.  There's the bastard, bottom right.  Not sure which one he is here. I have a tonne of pictures that I've dug out. Training in England at Bishops Stortford in 1938 and Essendon 1940 Architecture in Haifa, Benghazi His mates Trucks, and where they went - lot's Cemeteries - lot's Bashed up Nazi stuff. I also found this, it's kinda chewed up. It's been burned, and it's all stained with black - blood????   Edit to fix pictures Nucken Futz fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 20:24
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gently caress Yeah! A tourist in Egypt.  Edit .... sorting out this timg thang. Nucken Futz fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 20:26
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Blood fades. You can barely see it anymore after a few years. Must be ink or oil or something else.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:30
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JaucheCharly posted:Blood fades. You can barely see it anymore after a few years. Must be ink or oil or something else. Yeah, probably. I looked at the back page and its covered. Some church thing somewhere.   
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Jan 20, 2016 20:38
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This is taking waaaaaay longer than I anticipated to scan and crop and upload. Last one for now, I'll work on the rest ASAP.  The note on the back says we're looking at Benghazi
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Jan 20, 2016 20:55
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Nucken Futz posted:Yeah, probably. I looked at the back page and its covered. That is apparently the Benghazi Cathedral, which was just finished in 1939 and was disused and abandoned in 1977. It is currently being renovated, at least.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:08
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Nucken Futz posted:This is taking waaaaaay longer than I anticipated to scan and crop and upload. Not much has changed there, huh?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:05
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JaucheCharly posted:Blood fades. You can barely see it anymore after a few years. Must be ink or oil or something else.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:07
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bewbies posted:Pretty much; they were basically the first DPICM rounds. A squadron of IL-2s was delivering a payload roughly equal to that of a modern HIMARS battery, with very similar submunitions. Can I get a translation from Acronyms please?
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Jan 20, 2016 23:12
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JaucheCharly posted:Blood fades. You can barely see it anymore after a few years. Must be ink or oil or something else.  
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Jan 20, 2016 23:43
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that was exactly the piece of paper i was thinking about. i wonder if we could, theoretically, clone pappenheim
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Jan 20, 2016 23:44
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Clone all your guys and put them on an island.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:45
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Ensign Expendable posted:Clone all your guys and put them on an island.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:48
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100 Years Ago Did you know that the first-ever shell fired by the prototype for the world's first-ever tank was fired by accident? Allegedly there was a brief moment of panic when someone suggested that they might have shot the top off Lincoln Cathedral (which is indeed just within the Hotchkiss 6-pounder's range from the testing ground). Comedy mishaps aside, it's another good day and one of the designers has just become considerably richer into the bargain. Meanwhile, General Joffre makes some suggestions to perfidious Albion about the summer offensive; and, having been in general reserve twice in a row, it's going to be Robert Palmer's turn to go into battle tomorrow at the Hanna chokepoint - he's now the closet thing to "fresh troops" in the relief force.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:09
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HEY GAL posted:that was exactly the piece of paper i was thinking about. theoretically, sure
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Jan 21, 2016 00:10
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Pellisworth posted:theoretically, sure explain a technical to him and how a machine gun works, tell him that "you can totally ramp that bitch, probably," point him toward syria
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Jan 21, 2016 00:24
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I'm imagining a glorious charge of blinged out EXTREMELY CATHOLIC technicals In all seriousness you probably could clone him off that blood, or from his bones. But I think nurture is rather more important than nature in shaping your doods, so you might be disappointed in how your Pappenheim or Wallenstein 2.0 turned out 
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Jan 21, 2016 00:30
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Patrick Spens posted:Can I get a translation from Acronyms please? DPICM = Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition, basically a cluster bomb. HIMARS = High Mobility Artillery Rocket System. A modern descendent of the katyusha; a stack of rockets on a truck. It can be a pain in the rear end if you're phoneposting or something, but just googling the acronyms works pretty well most of the time. Both of those terms have Wikipedia entries.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:31
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Pellisworth posted:Wallenstein 2.0
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Jan 21, 2016 00:35
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Pellisworth posted:I'm imagining a glorious charge of blinged out EXTREMELY CATHOLIC technicals Now I'm imagining dudes who are really loving into model wargames, and will cut you/each other over the best army/manufacturer/game system. While wearing awesome hats.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:42
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Get a load of the rack on that church
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Jan 21, 2016 00:45
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hogmartin posted:DPICM = Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition, basically a cluster bomb. Thank you.
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Jan 21, 2016 01:00
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wdarkk posted:Now I'm imagining dudes who are really loving into model wargames, and will cut you/each other over the best army/manufacturer/game system. While wearing awesome hats.
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