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Actually he's completely right. Amnesty is intensively focusing on the Kurds whilst completely ignoring that Hashd al-Shabi literally just killed 100+ Sunni civilians in Muqdadiya, among other totally blatant human rights violations going on through Iraq.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:06
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Actually he's completely right. Amnesty is intensively focusing on the Kurds whilst completely ignoring that Hashd al-Shabi literally just killed 100+ Sunni civilians in Muqdadiya, among other totally blatant human rights violations going on through Iraq. Amnesty International produces reports to please its donors, who have a political agenda to push?! What a surprising development and not what everyone has been saying about them for, oh, the past ~20 years or so.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:08
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Actually he's completely right. Amnesty is intensively focusing on the Kurds whilst completely ignoring that Hashd al-Shabi literally just killed 100+ Sunni civilians in Muqdadiya, among other totally blatant human rights violations going on through Iraq. When did this happen?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:25
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Meanwhile, on the eve of the anniversary of Egypt's 2011 revolution: quote:CAIRO, Egypt — Police in Egypt searched thousands of apartments and asked people about their Facebook accounts, multiple residents in downtown Cairo told BuzzFeed News. The search and interrogation of social media accounts comes just days ahead of Jan. 25, which marks fifth anniversary of the popular uprising in Egypt. For a fun mental exercise, add "Islamist morality" to just before where you see the word "police" and imagine what the outcry would have been!
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Jan 20, 2016 20:30
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suboptimal posted:Meanwhile, on the eve of the anniversary of Egypt's 2011 revolution: So, without al-Sisi's coup, we would be adding 'islamist morality' before the word "police" in that report. I think it's better to not have islamist morality police and another state sponsor of terrorism dependent upon American aid for islamist goverment functionality in the mideast, don't you?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:32
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Torpor posted:Amnesty International's apparent indifference to issues with other Islamic extremist faction crimes while focusing on the Kurds seems kind of strange. Amnesty does seem to focus on the Kurds over other armed groups in Iraq and Syria. They're a front for Erdogan. When Amnesty gave a huge report about Zaniar and Loghman Moradi, two Kurdish activists on death row in Iran that no one else was talking about, I didn't hear any PKK fanboys bitching that they were slacking on their China execution coverage. It's very clear where this narrative is coming from. The bottom line is that before these two (2) reports on Kurdish militias abuses, people outright denied it was happening, and there was nothing definitive to point to and say that was bullshit. Amnesty stepped into the void and brought those abuses others wouldn't have heard about to light. Which is kind of their whole reason for existing. I don't think we need to worry about people forgetting ISIS has sex slaves in the meantime. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 20:36
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It's a bit of an odd thing to hear about Amnesty being biased against Kurds in general the moment accusations of crimes against humanity start being brought up against YPG. I don't recall them doing a whole lot of Kurdbashing before this little fracas in Syria started.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:42
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Volkerball posted:Amnesty does seem to focus on the Kurds over other armed groups in Iraq and Syria. They're a front for Erdogan. Maybe, (maybe), it's the absurd media focus on them (the first was completely alleged and unsubstantiated) from the media, compared to the absolute indiscriminate and comparatively extreme reports that are not a media focus or barely reported on in Syria and Iraq. I think that is the largely stratifying difference, and it's a completely justified criticism. Whilst the media gives no shits that Turkey is ripping apart the Kurdish civilians in Turkey en mass, yet the reports trickle out and maintain a strong sense of cynicism and disregard. Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 21:03
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Maybe, (maybe), it's the absurd media focus on them (the first was completely alleged and unsubstantiated) from the media, compared to the absolute indiscriminate and comparatively extreme reports that are not a media focus or barely reported on in Syria and Iraq. I think that is the largely stratifying difference, and it's a completely justified criticism. Sure, but that's a hell of a shift from your last criticism, which was that Amnesty was reporting on the Kurds disproportionately, which attacks the credibility of the report itself, not the coverage of it. The first had video interviews with people who said on camera "The YPG kicked us out of our homes and burned them down," and "We spoke directly to the YPG. It was the YPG," which countered basically every argument put forward by the opponents of the report. Those were primarily based around the people being mistaken and having actually dealt with ISIS, or that they didn't have access to the alleged victims, or that Amnesty, who have made thousands of these reports, got got by Turkish intelligence or something. It was pretty drat substantiated if you didn't go into it with your mind already made up. I agree media focus is fickle, and they tend to rotate from sexy story to sexy story while maybe the old story is still more important, but I haven't seen that in this instance. This is important. US tax dollars support these groups. People should be well aware of what they are paying for, and under public scrutiny, the US should be bringing these things up rather than sweeping them under the carpet. That was not there before these reports, and it's still mostly not, but Amnesty is at least doing their part. I don't see anything that should be condemned about that. The whole debate has read more to me like damage control than anything. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 21:14
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Squalid posted:Whatever man. At least I can convince myself you're playing a character, if perhaps one that's often cruel. But Liberal_L33t is actually evil, and the mere sight of his avatar turns my stomach. I have the distinct suspicion that the forums are a safe and consequence free (outside of the occasional tenbux) environment for migf to practice his patter and test talking points.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:31
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To me it's about proportionality of shifting the media focus. Go to the front page of Amnesty right now. I live in Iraq. Looking at this I can only laugh. The Kurdish mandate to relocate Arab's from their towns in Northern Iraq is not proportional to the current ongoing crisis in ISIS held towns (by the way, these northern towns were previous ISIS held and the atrocities were massive) and meanwhileon-going (like literally right now) Shia militia (Hashd al-Shab) remove Sunni towns and destroy Sunni mosques and kill Sunni people in Muqdadiya, which is far worse than what the Peshmerga do in norther iraq (whilst they also liberate these towns from ISIS.) There is a blockade on Muqdadiya to Baquba, and Sunni locals are on curfew. There is no monitoring and even the ISF have stepped in to 'try' and calm the situation. I don't see the Amnesty report on this. That's because it's disproportionate reporting based on a political agenda. It invalidates the point.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:32
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MothraAttack posted:Having a complete and utter brainfart and need help ID'ing -- who was the Syrian leader who looked kinda like Alloush but clean shaven? Similar age but kinda goofy grin? Was more important earlier on? Anyone have any idea of who I'm thinking of? Solved my own mystery -- Abdulkadir Saleh of Liwa Tawhid in Aleppo.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:41
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Lascivious Sloth posted:That's because it's disproportionate reporting based on a political agenda. It invalidates the point. From an incident in June quote:Government-backed Shi’a militias and security forces killed at least 56 – possibly more than 70 - Sunni Muslims in Barwana, a village west of Muqdadiya, in Diyala province, in the afternoon of 26 January 2015. Fifty four witnesses – relatives and neighbours of 40 victims – told Amnesty International that members of militias and SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics, an elite force) and other government forces went to Barwana and called on the men to come out of their homes to have their IDs checked. After the ID check, the men were told to go back home and some of the forces left Barwana, but some 15 minutes later militia and forces’ members went house to house, told the men to bring their IDs, and led them away to different locations in the village. Shortly after, the villagers heard gunfire and screaming and after the perpetrators left, they found the bodies of their loved ones – shot dead, most of them handcuffed and some also blindfolded – in yards, fields, and other sites around the village. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde14/1812/2015/en/ The other massacre that was committed in the last couple days in Diyala might also get its own report, but Amnesty reports aren't one of five written by a journalist on a given day, so it might take a little bit. In the meantime, they might just continue to have the audacity to keep their most recent report posted on their home page. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this because I don't see it at all.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:41
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MothraAttack posted:Solved my own mystery -- Abdulkadir Saleh of Liwa Tawhid in Aleppo. He popped into my head when you were first asking, but he had a beard, and I thought surely you'd thought of him. He's on the revolution mural! 
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Jan 20, 2016 21:44
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Volkerball posted:From an incident in June By the way, I watched this video; https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/video-banished-and-dispossessed-in-northern-iraq/ I'll note a few things in this; the terrible camp near the end has nothing to do with Peshmerga forces and is not in the location they say. I've been in this camp, and it IS the worst ever, but it is not what you think, and not where you think. Jalawla also has returnees both Sunni and Shia of Arab background currently and the destruction there WAS caused by a fierce fight by Daesh versus Peshmerga, NOT Peshmerga raising it to the ground for its own interests (in fact it goes against Kurdish interests to destroy this town.) It was a certain tribe that took allegiance to Daesh that cannot return. Looking at the landscape it's obvious she really only visited Diyala and Sulaymaniyah and edited some videos of Sinjar into it. I've been to every sight shown in this video and it's completely biased and actually just really ignorant reporting.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:53
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Volkerball posted:Amnesty does seem to focus on the Kurds over other armed groups in Iraq and Syria. They're a front for Erdogan. Thing is, their reports enhance the ability of ISIL to get away with the crimes they commit by attempting to hinder support of the only group willing to go out and proactively kill ISIL. Amnesty International is indirectly aiding ISIL in their reporting, and should be condemned for it.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Thing is, their reports enhance the ability of ISIL to get away with the crimes they commit by attempting to hinder support of the only group willing to go out and proactively kill ISIL. Amnesty International is indirectly aiding ISIL in their reporting, and should be condemned for it. Well, you're an idiot and thank you for invalidating what I am saying (you are the ISIS to me being Peshmerga in this analogy), so gently caress off. You are the extreme of the other side of idiots that think this. You're like the trump to the rand paul, or some stupid US politics analogy.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:58
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Well, you're an idiot and thank you for invalidating what I am saying (you are the ISIS to me being Peshmerga in this analogy), so gently caress off. You are the extreme of the other side of idiots that think this. You're like the trump to the rand paul, or some stupid US politics analogy. It's the same thing that Russia Today attempts to do in their reporting. "Both sides are equally bad, we can never know the truth, there are just too many narratives out there so don't worry yourself with it."
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Jan 20, 2016 22:00
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My Imaginary GF posted:It's the same thing that Russia Today attempts to do in their reporting. "Both sides are equally bad, we can never know the truth, there are just too many narratives out there so don't worry yourself with it." Actually Russia Today is some stupid biased reporting too. It doesn't make the stupid extreme poo poo you write correct. Truth is Peshmerga and Kurds SHOULD be accountable and they should be held to a higher standard. But the report by amnesty lacks authenticity and validity. I DO believe that the Kurds are kicking out the Arabs as reappraisal for Suddam Arabisation, but it isn't as simple as that, and in proportionality of the other things happening on a political scale by ISF and Hashd al shabi it is NOT unbiased reporting of human rights in the locality and in the country.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:05
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Lascivious Sloth posted:By the way, I watched this video; https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/video-banished-and-dispossessed-in-northern-iraq/ Well if you visited all these places shown in the vid I sure hope you took pics! That would be important if you wanted to prove that there were no attemps to demolish those villages! Post them!
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Jan 20, 2016 22:10
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Actually Russia Today is some stupid biased reporting too. It doesn't make the stupid extreme poo poo you write correct. Truth is Peshmerga and Kurds SHOULD be accountable and they should be held to a higher standard. But the report by amnesty lacks authenticity and validity. I DO believe that the Kurds are kicking out the Arabs as reappraisal for Suddam Arabisation, but it isn't as simple as that, and in proportionality of the other things happening on a political scale by ISF and Hashd al shabi it is NOT unbiased reporting of human rights in the locality and in the country. I, too, believe that's what the Kurds are doing as well. I also believe that mentioning it only strengthens ISIL, therefore we should overlook it for the sake of the greater good. And frankly, I can hardly think of any greater good in this world than ISIL losing its economic base.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:13
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I really still can't tell if you're an ironic poster and I'm feeling like a horrible person now.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:18
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suboptimal posted:How many times do you have to be reminded that Egypt under Sisi has been more authoritarian and used Islam in a far more repressive way than Morsi or the MB could have aspired to? I'm not defending Morsi or Islamists, but poo poo like this is how jihadist groups are able to recruit and flourish. These are all good, interesting posts but they hardly change the fact that it was either this or Morsi turning the country into another Saudi Arabia. The Soviet puppet governments were pretty harsh on the populace of Eastern Europe, does that mean they would have been better off if Hitler had won (yup,  )? Frankly, I fail to see how mosques that refuse to toe the moderate, modern-state-friendly line getting shuttered is anything but a positive change. Napoleon giving the state power over catholic churches and priests was the best thing that ever happened to Europe. As for the other three, it's hardly surprising that Sisi's Egypt is taking legal action against atheists and others who challenge the state's new modernist-pro-government-Islam from the left. I may not be exactly happy to see it, but I am much happier to see a (nominally) secular (nominally) constitutional republic enforce a few preexisting religious speech codes than I would have been to see that constitution shredded and replaced with a theocratic screed that officially and permanently makes Islam the sole source of all legitimacy and all of the state institutions being replaced or made explicitly religious. And in any case, I don't see how you can draw a significant distinction between Islamists and jihadists. Both share a similar goal - democracy and terrorism are just two different tools used in different situations. This isn't a unique feature of Islamism either; the same is true of virtually every ideology. The United States indirectly contributed to Soviet terrorism when we provided them vast military support during the second world war. The leaders of the time accepted this moral compromise as a necessity. Much the same is true of the current era, except now we're indirectly supporting the fascists against an even worse ideology. Since a theocratic government like Morsi's can't rightly be called a republic, we aren't compromising any republican principles by allowing it to fall. Sisi's oligarchic state will hopefully be removed at some point in the future, but a transition into Islamism cannot be allowed, because turning the religious scholars loose on the population will do them far more harm than a corrupt and anti-democratic military/law enforcement apparatus.suboptimal posted:Meanwhile, on the eve of the anniversary of Egypt's 2011 revolution: That actually would make it substantially worse, though, even if the specific facts of the action were more or less the same. Bait and Swatch posted:Nah, evil takes actual action. He's just another poster on an Internet forum who will never have to be the one to take the lives of the millions like he fantasizes about. Don't give him any credit for anything, he's nothing but words on a screen. Who's denying them their humanity? I'm not. They are certainly human beings with motives that are understandable and potentially even sympathetic from their perspective. That doesn't dissuade me from wanting enough of them killed that their ideology is unable to enforce its collective will on anyone. My beliefs here have very little to do with a pursuit of some kind of ideal justice. Everything a person or group does, or doesn't do, is an injustice to somebody somewhere. It is human nature to empathize with persons you spend time with and hear the life story of. Perhaps in a few decades, weapons technology, rehabilitation techniques and psychological warfare will have advanced to the point where it is no longer necessary to kill such people in order to put an end to militantly regressive ideologies. But for now, in the process of conflict between nations and ideologies, "morally" innocent people will be swept up and killed amid the chaos. I don't feel that dwelling upon those realities up until the point that all conflict becomes unacceptable is the best response. (and incidentally, I find all of the posts accusing me of some form of 'cowardice' to be a little hard to take seriously. Am I to take these posters argument to be that I should sell my house and fly to Syria or whatever with a rifle in my hand to back up my beliefs with direct violence? If I were to post plans to do exactly that, I feel the thread's response would be anything but congratulatory)
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Jan 20, 2016 22:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:I, too, believe that's what the Kurds are doing as well. Sweeping it under the rug also only strengthens Daesh, as it gives juicy propaganda fodder.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:56
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Liberal_L33t posted:Perhaps in a few decades, weapons technology, rehabilitation techniques and psychological warfare will have advanced to the point where it is no longer necessary to kill such people in order to put an end to militantly regressive ideologies. But for now, in the process of conflict between nations and ideologies, "morally" innocent people will be swept up and killed amid the chaos. I don't feel that dwelling upon those realities up until the point that all conflict becomes unacceptable is the best response. I for one am glad that we don't have to worry about """"morally" innocent people" being killed if its chaotic and really serves to uh.. Help me out here. Anyway, let's not dwell on it, the most important thing is that the fascists currently in power aren't islamists. That's the most important thing! Nevermind those chimneys!
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Jan 20, 2016 22:57
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Lascivious Sloth posted:I really still can't tell if you're an ironic poster and I'm feeling like a horrible person now. On non-meta-posting, thanks for providing background on some of the stuff mentioned in the amnesty report. I had wondered if amnesty got a few things wrong like they had in the YPG report, looks like might have. Lascivious Sloth posted:By the way, I watched this video; https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/video-banished-and-dispossessed-in-northern-iraq/
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Jan 20, 2016 23:00
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fade5 posted:MIGF is an gimmicky rear end in a top hat of the highest caliber who should have been perma'd months ago, but for some reason he has continued to gimmick-post even though everyone hates his guts and wants him to gently caress off immediately. At a certain point it doesn't matter if he's a gimmick or not, he's still one of the shittiest posters on the forums. The town is still laden with IEDs even after UNAMI went through it (and residents return). The amount of booby traps and IEDs Daesh leave when they are either under siege or retreat is amazing. There is a very good reason that armies decide to just level buildings rather than send in 'teams' that are basically suicide squads. Ramadi is the same right now, and those towns in N Iraq are the same. It's Daesh strategy and it halts access and prevents advances, which works to their advantage. They obviously don't care about the civilian death toll, so why not booby trap the entire town they take and will leave.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:28
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Liberal_L33t posted:Ignorance is bliss "You can't kill your way out of an insurgency" is a common refrain in the intelligence community, think on it and determine if you really think you know better than those who fight these people for a living. In regards to your internet bravado that has led you to unironically claiming that genocide will fix the Middle East, just let it go. Go read the stories from refugees or people who have lived through genocides. Read about the killing fields, or the rape houses; do some research and introspection. Humans don't kill nicely or cleanly, and the deaths of millions is something you shouldn't treat so lightly. Much better men and women than you or I have been broken when facing a fraction of what you want your reality to look like, and I hope you never have to experience it from either side of the fence.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:28
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Bait and Swatch posted:"You can't kill your way out of an insurgency" is a common refrain in the intelligence community, think on it and determine if you really think you know better than those who fight these people for a living. That refrain has an addendum: "...without using WMD's or weaponized starvation tactics." It's the solution that Assad came upon, after all, even if its deployment was a bit uninspired.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:That refrain has an addendum: "...without using WMD's or weaponized starvation tactics." It's the solution that Assad came upon, after all, even if its deployment was a bit uninspired. Hmm, I didn't realize he had won already.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:34
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Bait and Swatch posted:"You can't kill your way out of an insurgency" is a common refrain in the intelligence community, think on it and determine if you really think you know better than those who fight these people for a living. If you're not familiar with liberal leet he doesn't view muslims as people and wants them all exterminated and will most likely die in either a shootout with police or turning a gun on himself after he shoots up a mosque (sikh temple probably). He is a racist, bigoted sociopath who has chased off a number of actual middle easterners from this thread with his repugnant poo poo views. It's really just best to not engage him and report and hope he gets permabanned before something awful makes the news again because of him e: The Guardian is doing a series on Saudi Arabia apparently starting with how things have changed/not under King Salman Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:37
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Bait and Swatch posted:Hmm, I didn't realize he had won already. His father won by using that tactic. Unfortunately for Assad the Junior, he tried to deploy it before he was under the Soviet nuclear umbrella.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:That refrain has an addendum: "...without using WMD's or weaponized starvation tactics." It's the solution that Assad came upon, after all, even if its deployment was a bit uninspired. Assad's force do not only kill "cleanly" with WMDs and starvation, our buddy Caesar has thousands of pieces of evidence of it.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:40
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Nothing better than a clean genocide.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:42
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My Imaginary GF posted:His father won by using that tactic. Unfortunately for Assad the Junior, he tried to deploy it before he was under the Soviet nuclear umbrella. Interesting counter-point. It's certainly a solid exception to the rule, as the 1982 massacre not only collapsed the short-lived uprising, it basically ended the split between the militant and political elements of the MB.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:52
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My Imaginary GF posted:His father won by using that tactic. Unfortunately for Assad the Junior, he tried to deploy it before he was under the Soviet nuclear umbrella. Oh to be young and to brutally crush dissent before the internet existed again. 
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Jan 21, 2016 00:10
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Volkerball posted:Oh to be young and to brutally crush dissent before the internet existed again. You can still crush dissent as much as you like just like old times, you just have to have the backing of Washington and tons of gulf cash. Social Media has proven to be not much use when the ministry of interior knows who's posting what and when there's no such thing as human rights in the law then no amount of tweeting will save you.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:58
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Al-Saqr posted:You can still crush dissent as much as you like just like old times, you just have to have the backing of Washington and tons of gulf cash. Social Media has proven to be not much use when the ministry of interior knows who's posting what and when there's no such thing as law then no amount of tweeting will save you. Mubarak had the backing of Washington and it didn't count for much for him. Sure the military remained untouched, but the fact Mubarak had to make concessions instead of just killing people until they gave up and went home shows what that strategy counts for these day. You can't crush dissent anymore without everyone in the country knowing it. Whether or not people want to be willfully ignorant of it is one thing, but massacring a shitload of your own people is a hell of a lot more risky a proposition than it was 30 years ago. It's playing with fire.
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Jan 21, 2016 01:02
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Al-Saqr posted:You can still crush dissent as much as you like just like old times, you just have to have the backing of Washington and tons of gulf cash. Social Media has proven to be not much use when the ministry of interior knows who's posting what and when there's no such thing as human rights in the law then no amount of tweeting will save you. Quick! Name one nation supported by the United States which used chemical weapons on their own population while we supported them. You can't, because there are none.
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Jan 21, 2016 01:06
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Volkerball posted:Mubarak had the backing of Washington and it didn't count for much for him. Sure the military remained untouched, but the fact Mubarak had to make concessions instead of just killing people until they gave up and went home shows what that strategy counts for these day. You can't crush dissent anymore without everyone in the country knowing it. Whether or not people want to be willfully ignorant of it is one thing, but massacring a shitload of your own people is a hell of a lot more risky a proposition than it was 30 years ago. It's playing with fire. Mubarak fell, but the regime survived in the form of Sisi, who initiated his rule by killing a shitload of people in the streets. My Imaginary GF posted:Quick! Name one nation supported by the United States which used chemical weapons on their own population while we supported them. Iraq, unless you aren't counting Kurds as their own population. The US helpfully blamed the attacks on Iran.
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Jan 21, 2016 01:15
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