|
Prophecy120 posted:I've noticed very little Ello Asty love in XXY or XXX builds. White Talon Rolls sound amazing combined with other T-70s, looping all over the goddamn board staying out of firing arcs. Are the other X-wing aces just that much better that no one uses Ello? I think it's because Red Ace's limited invulnerability build is a lot easier and more concrete a benefit to get your head around than "be Goddamn Anywhere On the Board." Not necessarily stronger, but just easier to look at a netlist and say "oh, this does X, and X is obviously a good thing."
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 05:08 |
|
|
Y-Wing: · "Dutch" Vander (23) Twin Laser Turret (6) Targeting Astromech (2) T-70 X-Wing: · Poe Dameron (31) Veteran Instincts (1) · R2-D2 (4) Autothrusters (2) X-Wing: · Wedge Antilles (29) Veteran Instincts (1) R2 Astromech (1) Integrated Astromech (0) Would this work as well? I don't like having to borrow ships every week (I don't have a Rebel Transport yet) so even though I love Wes, I wonder how well this would do. Maybe switch the TLT for Engine Upgrade and Autoblaster?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:20
|
|
|
Prophecy120 posted:I've noticed very little Ello Asty love in XXY or XXX builds. White Talon Rolls sound amazing combined with other T-70s, looping all over the goddamn board staying out of firing arcs. Are the other X-wing aces just that much better that no one uses Ello? I played against Ello, Poe, and Jake last night with Boba Fett and 4x Obsidian squadron pilots. Poe went down early, then Ello proceeded to murder Boba and 3 Obsidian squadron pilots on his own before the final TIE fighter finally limped into range 1 and finished him off. Ello with his white T-rolls, VI, and a decent astromech is terrifying to face.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
Icon Of Sin posted:Ello with his white T-rolls, VI, and a decent astromech is terrifying to face. What magic trash can was your foe running?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:35
|
|
|
Prophecy120 posted:I've noticed very little Ello Asty love in XXY or XXX builds. White Talon Rolls sound amazing combined with other T-70s, looping all over the goddamn board staying out of firing arcs. Are the other X-wing aces just that much better that no one uses Ello? Are you talking in general or just this thread? I mean, Strobe has basically refined T-65 X-wing lists down to their pure essence. Wes is really good, though, and so is Wedge. I'd have a hard time taking Ello over either of them for a tournament list. For casual lists (which I play 90% of the time) Ello Asty is pretty cool, I think.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:54
|
|
|
Ello is perfectly acceptable, but he has all of the weaknesses of a distraction/arc-dodge ace while sitting at a natural PS7 who has little use for utility EPTs like PTL. If you can keep T-Rolling he feels like a murdermachine that you can't shoot back at. The moment he gets stressed it's trouble, in my experience, and at 30 points naked he's expensive. Again, I think he's good, but his strengths also don't translate well across all tables, because some people will just crash his T-Roll into a debris cloud and welp Also, Brunas linked me to some forum poo poo where in a Rules question, the answer came down that Autothrusters works based on base-to-base distance, not the range of the attack, meaning that the Inquisitor (whose whole schtick was, I had presumed, that he killed Autothruster aces) just took a major hit in my eyes, and I was already on the fence about the TAP. I think the more I look at Wave 8, the more I think that very little will be instantly meta playable. Rebels get a super Y-Wing with no green dice, S&V get an expensive ship in a faction filled with overcosted ships, Empire gets an A-Wing and TIE/Ds get double shots, which could be Tractor Beams or Ion Cannons, who knows. I don't think anything is horrible, but I don't think it's going to be as amazing as is predicted. Guidance Chips will make ordnance a more palatable choice, not auto-include; Tractor Beam and the title makes the TIE/D pickable instead of garbage, but it still doesn't solve the weakness at four ships that Empire has (since Vessery is still the best TIE/D and with upgrades he's 40 points); and if the Autothrusters thing is correct, Inquisitor (the only good TAP pilot, imo) is going to struggle, too. ALSO gently caress YES I REMEMBER NOW there was also a thing that said 3PO beats Juke, which I always thought would happen because of the wording of the card ("before modifying dice") but again I think he linked me off of FFG's forums and now I can't find it. Maybe it's fake errata/FAQ stuff because it seems pretty pro-Rebels.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:07
|
|
|
I saw that autothrusters thing, too, and it's the dumbest sort of rules lawyering. I'd be absolutely shocked if it turns out being anything other than the range of the attack. Wave 8 doesn't look to have anything totally meta defining, but I think it will really diversify the lists further. Which is only a good thing. Nobody in their right minds WANTS there to be one true meta build.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:14
|
|
|
After the last year+ of constant meta shakeups I'll take a few ships that aren't instantly game breaking. The last thing we need is another Phantom. Edit: the Autothrusters thing is dumb and the devs need to quit answering emails about rules questions.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
Otisburg posted:What magic trash can was your foe running? I think it was R7-T1, but he wants to put something else on it for next time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
Otisburg posted:What magic trash can was your foe running? I sort of like running Ello with BB8 and VI because people tend to have no goddamn idea where he is going to end up. It can sometimes turn more into a mind game, which can be almost more rewarding. Played this a couple time with some fun and somewhat effective results (I only have one Integrated Astromech, before anyone asks) Ello Asty (30) Veteran Instincts (1) BB-8 (2) Integrated Astromech (0) "Red Ace" (29) R2-D2 (4) Jake Farrell (24) Push the Limit (3) Proton Rockets (3) Veteran Instincts (1) Autothrusters (2) A-Wing Test Pilot (0) Total: 99 ConfusedUs posted:Wave 8 doesn't look to have anything totally meta defining, but I think it will really diversify the lists further. Which is only a good thing. Nobody in their right minds WANTS there to be one true meta build. This is my thinking. Not every wave has to 'define the meta' or whatever. I can already think of a dozen ways where wave 8 will increase diversity in lists, which makes everything more fun and balanced overall. The second someone starts to argue around 'the meta', i tune out. From my experience, people who only build or buy around the meta tend to be min-maxers who are kind of obnoxious anyway. Also, the more I type 'meta' the weirder it looks. meta. enigmahfc fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
everyone posted:words drat, I missed ideology chat. I suppose I could go back to the movie thread, but it gives me hives.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:45
|
|
|
I still think the inquisitor will be worth it. He's a relatively cheap arc dodger that still chucks 3 dice at any range. TAP is also a better ship than the FO and might see some use in certain builds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
Madurai posted:drat, I missed ideology chat. I suppose I could go back to the movie thread, but it gives me hives. Your lucky. That talk was such a Mary Sue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:50
|
|
|
The Inquisitor is also dirt cheap
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:52
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:I saw that autothrusters thing, too, and it's the dumbest sort of rules lawyering. I'd be absolutely shocked if it turns out being anything other than the range of the attack. I think FFG decided they made autothrusters too good and are trying to nerf it by just saying we were all playing it wrong the whole time. No FFG, the worlds top table had autothrusters on both sides, if it was played wrong there you should have corrected it. Also it means we get to measure every shot twice now, which is annoying and stupid. Brunas fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:52
|
|
|
Also the scum do need a b-wing equivalent and a turret ship, so even if wave 8 doesn't shake out the meta it should fill in options for scum. They just need an arc dodger now (the starvipers should have been one but alas)
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:00
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:I still think the inquisitor will be worth it. He's a relatively cheap arc dodger that still chucks 3 dice at any range. TAP is also a better ship than the FO and might see some use in certain builds. Seriously, TAPs are going to be really good. They're only two points more than F/Os with a built in double action from the title. Comparing them to A-Wings is just embarrassing to the poor a-wings now though. I'm just hoping the PS4 is a generic with an elite slot for 18, so you can do Vessery/TIED/Crack Shot/Tractor Beam and 3 Generic Elite TAPs with Juke and the title...
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:09
|
|
|
Brunas posted:I think FFG decided they made autothrusters too good and are trying to nerf it by just saying we were all playing it wrong the whole time. No FFG, the worlds top table had autothrusters on both sides, if it was played wrong there you should have corrected it. I agree that the ruling is dumb and wrong, but why would Base-to-Base distance be different from attack range for any pilot other than the Inquisitor?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:13
|
|
|
A-wings are still sort of neat thanks to the double EPT and Jake still sees competitive use, as well as green squadrons/15 point generics. Poopy Palpy posted:I agree that the ruling is dumb and wrong, but why would Base-to-Base distance be different from attack range for any pilot other than the Inquisitor?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:16
|
|
|
Poopy Palpy posted:I agree that the ruling is dumb and wrong, but why would Base-to-Base distance be different from attack range for any pilot other than the Inquisitor? Often the closest to closest measurement isn't in arc. This example is wrong now, but the ship placement diagrams shows the case that was changed. 
Brunas fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:This really needs a diagram but if a ship is heading in a diagonal trajectory compared to another, a part might be out of arc but technically closer. Yep. This comes up often when I'm trying to one-shot Soontir with Han. The length along his art is range 2-3, but the closest point is only range 1-2. I've had too many people trying to tell me autothrusters kicks in at that point.  Tekopo posted:Also the scum do need a b-wing equivalent and a turret ship, so even if wave 8 doesn't shake out the meta it should fill in options for scum. They just need an arc dodger now (the starvipers should have been one but alas) I don't care if it's turret or not, but the scum need a horizontally-flat ship that I can paint things on. It's really dumb that the faction people will most likely attribute street art to don't have a ship that players can easily see emblazoned with cool murals. Like, I'm actually sad that when I finish the space garbage truck, you'll only ever be able to see one side of it at a time and only if it happens to be turning. There's more surface area on the other large ships and you get to see it all at once.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
So, we're basically looking at an edge case where a bit of base is in-arc but at range 3, and the closer part of the base (which is out of arc) is Range 2. I don't care how you measure it because Autothrusters apply in either case. If it's the case that the base-to-base range is in-arc then it's a moot point anyway because base-to-base is same as attack range. No question there. So, I must be missing something because I don't see anything about this "ruling" that makes me change the way I handle Autothrusters. e:^^^It shouldn't matter because Autothrusters is beyond Range 2 OR out-of-arc Finster Dexter fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:So, we're basically looking at an edge case where a bit of base is in-arc but at range 3, and the closer part of the base (which is out of arc) is Range 2. I don't care how you measure it because Autothrusters apply in either case. No. Autothrusters specifically do not apply in this case. Han doesn't trigger autothrusters even though the arc range is in 3. The game logic is weird, I know.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:32
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:So, we're basically looking at an edge case where a bit of base is in-arc but at range 3, and the closer part of the base (which is out of arc) is Range 2. I don't care how you measure it because Autothrusters apply in either case. No, that's not correct. Look at the diagram above. The ruling changes the effect to match the one on the right even for ships that do not have a 360 turret. In essence the change would make the HLC in the diagram above also ignore autos.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:33
|
|
|
I can't look at the diagram above because my work proxy blocks imgur.  But I'm proceeding from the knowledge that firing arc doesn't change just because your primary attack or secondary attack let's you fire outside of that arc. e: wait, are you guys saying that autothrusters don't kick in when getting shot by a turret?? I don't get how that is possible based on how Autothrusters is worded (procs off the ship's firing arc) Finster Dexter fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
Whats this Autothrusters Ruling now? E: nm Tequila Ranger fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
That's not what is being argued here. The argument isn't wether something is in arc or not, but at what distance it is considered for the purposes of autothrusters. Previously you just measured to the bit of the enemy that was in arc. Now you measure closest to closest, even if the closest point is outside the arc. When you are dealing with 360, this happened anyway, and now it will happen even for non 360 ships. It will make sense when you see the diagram
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:I can't look at the diagram above because my work proxy blocks imgur. Han is in firing arc. That firing arc is at range 3, but the turret is at range 2, out of firing arc. There is no reason whatsoever that autothrusters kicks in. Han is both in range 2 AND in firing arc. Tekopo posted:That's not what is being argued here. The argument isn't wether something is in arc or not, but at what distance it is considered for the purposes of autothrusters. Previously you just measured to the bit of the enemy that was in arc. Now you measure closest to closest, even if the closest point is outside the arc. When you are dealing with 360, this happened anyway, and now it will happen even for non 360 ships.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
Consider an angled ship. Within arc is at range 3. Outside of arc the closest point is at range 2. A turreted ship fires. They are able to fire at range 2, and autothrusters does not trigger because base to base distance is 2, and some portion of the ship is in firing arc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
Pulled up the diagram on my phone. That's exactly what I was picturing. I'm just saying why I disagree with the ruling. ofc I will be bringing this up when I run my Dash+Corran list at Store Championship in March. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
Autos still work for turrets. If any part of the model is in arc of a turret ship (the front arc that is), autos don't work unless the ship is at range 3. If closest to closest is outside arc and at range 2, then autos don't work (but if NO part of the enemy ship was in arc and the range was range 2 or 3, three autos would work).
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
So you've just got to be all the way out of arc to use the autothrusters at range 2? That doesn't seem so controversial to me.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:48
|
|
|
Chill la Chill posted:Han is in firing arc. That firing arc is at range 3, but the turret is at range 2, out of firing arc. There is no reason whatsoever that autothrusters kicks in. Han is both in range 2 AND in firing arc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
Icon Of Sin posted:So you've just got to be all the way out of arc to use the autothrusters at range 2? That doesn't seem so controversial to me. It's not. It's always been that way and I know cuz I've had to defend against its usage multiple times. Tekopo posted:So you are saying that if you have a ship without a 360 turret in arc, you first of all measure if you are in arc and even though the range is 3, autos still don't work because closest to closest is range 2? Cause that's the change they want to do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
So I really like the new take on super dash that Kanan crew brings. Also, I definitely want to make more use and justify my preordering the VCX for more than just a crew card, so I'm dreaming up this list below. The general idea is that dash gets much more erratic now that his white maneuvers can basically be green, and hera flys in ways that cover dash's donut in case he gets focused. Likewise, if hera gets focused, or if she outlives dash, then she just emphasizes her ability plus navigator to ram ships and throw 5 attack dice at them thanks to zeb's ability. I've got 2 points left over, and originally I was using those on autoblaster turret, but after reading zeb's card which only triggers on opponents inside my arcs, I decided it'd be such a rare case that I'd ever shoot the autoblaster. So what do you guys think of this list? And is there anything productive that I'm missing for the last 2 points? YT-2400 Dash Rendar (36) Push the Limit (3) Heavy Laser Canon (7) Outrider (5) Kanan Jarrus (3) VCX-100 Hera Syndulla (40) "Zeb" Orrelios (1) Navigator (3) Total: 98
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
Chill la Chill posted:It's not. It's always been that way and I know cuz I've had to defend against its usage multiple times. Some forum that was mentioned a few posts back regarding autothrusters rulings, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place. You might have been talking about turret ships, but I was talking specifically about non-turret ships (which I did state in my post). It's why I was.confused when you said that you had always been doing it already.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:Some forum that was mentioned a few posts back regarding autothrusters rulings, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place. You might have been talking about turret ships, but I was talking specifically about non-turret ships (which I did state in my post). It's why I was.confused when you said that you had always been doing it already. Oh, nevermind then. I really only pay attention to stuff on facebook and usually only post here about painting things. (Sorry but as part of the Paul Heaver secret cabal nova-locals-only club....  )
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
I think people have gotten a little bit confused. When it was brought up, some people thought that the fact this worked for 360 ships was what was being ruled. This, as mentioned, always worked like this for those ships, so it's not a point of contention. What is a point of contention is for non-360 ships, which are getting so weird ruling where you technically can be firing something at range 3 but not have autothrusters kick off, which is a hosed up ruling imo
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
Here is the forum post in question.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 19:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 05:08 |
|
|
Though I never expected the inquisitor to cancel Autothrusters at range 3, Frank's ruling is pretty dumb, despite being an uncommon edge case.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 20:06
|
|