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piratepilates posted:Well I mean you can post in a star wars thread about the four star wars movies people generally accept as good and enjoyable surely. Esb, aotc, anh and rots? That's two prequels right there.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:03
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Lt. Danger posted:You've mentioned it before, but why? The alien in particular is just big, brown and bald, like a ton of other new aliens in the film. The First Order spy plays heavy homage to the dominatrix villainess archetype that was quite common in vintage science fiction (of which Star Wars drew influence from and contributed to. The vintage part not the dominatrix), alongside Disney's own Maleficent. In spite of the influence, her outfit and posture explicitly downplays the hypersexuality that ye olde villainesses were ultimately foiled with. On top of this, the pattern on the white piece is quite familiar as the eye-blurring pattern you often see on prototypes in testing environments (to make taking a clear picture of its dimensions and design more difficult), which contributes both to her faux-dominatrix style and to her role as an embedded agent. Alone this would just be a very nice design, but the interesting part (to me) is the fact that she is not treated as a villain in spite of her appearance by the film; it is to be believed as a shock that she's a spy for the First Order. I feel like this provides nice commentary on what the designers homage in context of our modern sensibilities, that what was once an obscene, villified, and repressed sexual quirk is now acceptable, comfortable, even PG-13. Older or conservative-minded viewers may be fooled even further, as they might expect the person with resemblence to the submissive role in the 'traditional' relationship instead acts as an extreme catalyst towards the protagonists' capture. Her partner is not a separate design, but instead serves as backdrop to expand on her design. In the original material he would play the role of a subservient brute, to be pitied or even serve as a secondary protagonist, who goes through their own arc that sees them as dominant of the dominatrix. Instead he plays an equal role in the shot; he takes up as much space as her, neither are the center of the shot, his arm is around her, her arm is above his. He does not do her dirty work, does not go through a personal arc to dominate her, and he is neither seen as lowly nor pitiable for his non-dominant association with her. It is now normal to show interest in the dominatrixes of vintage fantasies. Plus they're just really commendable effects work and tailoring. I'm sure you could find critique of that reading or even come up with your own, but the overall reason I love them and the other cantina designs is just how much raw story all of them bring; the lead effects artist claims that they came up with an entire backstory or statement for every patron before they started drawing up art concepts, and it's hard ro not believe them when you have shots like this. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 20:07
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piratepilates posted:Well I mean you can post in a star wars thread about the four star wars movies people generally accept as good and enjoyable surely. I don't think it's a requirement to have to constantly watch and enjoy the three lovely ones to post in this thread that was created because a good new one came out. This discussion has come up and mysteriously there is little to talk about for those other movies. Indeed, there's more discussion about the PT discussion itself.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:07
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Hat Thoughts posted:You are person who complained about Suicide Squad being "Hot Topic" or no? I don't remember all of my posts, but I recall posting in the Suicide Squad thread in GBS (the one with Hot Topic in the title). In my defense, that was a really bad promo picture. E: haha see what I mean? It feels like every time I make a long TFA post someone suggests that nothing in it is worth talking about immediately before or after it! Best curse ever.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:12
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computer parts posted:This discussion has come up and mysteriously there is little to talk about for those other movies. Indeed, there's more discussion about the PT discussion itself. I'm still pretty sure that if you removed straight-up arguing over whether the prequels are good or bad all seven movies would be pretty equally represented.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:19
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If you remove the discussion, things are discussed equally!
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Jan 22, 2016 20:21
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Phylodox posted:I'm still pretty sure that if you removed straight-up arguing over whether the prequels are good or bad all seven movies would be pretty equally represented. How would you mention the prequels without mentioning their merits or flaws? Alternatively: this is true, because then no discussion would occur.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:21
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Neurolimal posted:Alone this would just be a very nice design, but the interesting part (to me) is the fact that she is not treated as a villain in spite of her appearance by the film; it is to be believed as a shock that she's a spy for the First Order. I don't see where you're getting this from at all. The dominatrix who's lounging against the slovenly, fat alien reveals herself to be a villain ten seconds after she appears. It's the least subversive thing I can imagine doing with her character.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:34
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Didn't say "discussing", said "arguing". Just...trying to objectively prove the inherently subjective, you know?
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Jan 22, 2016 20:34
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Zoran posted:I don't see where you're getting this from at all. The dominatrix who's lounging against the slovenly, fat alien reveals herself to be a villain ten seconds after she appears. It's the least subversive thing I can imagine doing with her character. Many other characters are also introduced in the cantina. Armed ones. With creepy faces and spikes. A fan of Star Wars will see the scene and expect the danger to come in the form of a grizzled bounty hunter who gets killed by Han or Chewbacca, not a lithe lady a few changes away from a typical dancer from previous Cantina scenes. Star Wars is serial, TFA exists with expectations that you are aware of previous films. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 20:35
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It's kinda rad to have a remotely villainous female character in a star wars film, I guess. Phasma too.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:40
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Hbomberguy posted:It's kinda rad to have a remotely villainous female character in a star wars film, I guess. Phasma too. And a female stormtrooper. Other than Phasma.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:43
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Zoran posted:I don't see where you're getting this from at all. The dominatrix who's lounging against the slovenly, fat alien reveals herself to be a villain ten seconds after she appears. It's the least subversive thing I can imagine doing with her character. Yeah, I was about to say this. First paragraph is reasonable but the second confuses me. Similarly with the alien partner - he's just not around long enough to support ideas about subversive submission and whatnot. He's basically an extension of the chair. Also, no way they are equal in that shot.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:49
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euphronius posted:Uh I meant more like did he call up quigon pretty soon after he cut off his "good friend's" limbs, left him to burn alive on a lava planet, and saw his wife orphan two kids in childbirth.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:51
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Neurolimal posted:Many other characters are also introduced in the cantina. Armed ones. With creepy faces and spikes. A fan of Star Wars will see the scene and expect the danger to come in the form of a grizzled bounty hunter who gets killed by Han or Chewbacca, not a lithe lady a few changes away from a typical dancer from previous Cantina scenes. Star Wars is serial, TFA exists with expectations that you are aware of previous films. I obviously don't have the Blu-Ray and can't just go look at the scene to remind myself how it's set up, but I don't specifically remember the camera lingering on any of the patrons except for those two. So it's like they narrowed down the threat to just those two characters already, and from there it's no shock that the dominatrix-looking one is a bad person. A New Hope had a bar that was dangerous because of its violent male thugs, true, but Attack of the Clones presented something entirely different—not a grizzled warrior but a lithe assassin who was skulking about. In light of that, I don't think making the threat in TFA something other than a gruff dude with a scary face was shocking.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:01
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A shape shifting assassin that's shape shifting was completely underwhelming and, honestly, out of everything she could have shapeshifted into, dumb.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:10
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Zoran posted:I obviously don't have the Blu-Ray and can't just go look at the scene to remind myself how it's set up, but I don't specifically remember the camera lingering on any of the patrons except for those two. So it's like they narrowed down the threat to just those two characters already, and from there it's no shock that the dominatrix-looking one is a bad person. AOTC established that there was even a threat to begin with, nothing in previous films suggest that the first thing to happen after a cantina is a wave of nonviolent aliens to disarm the viewer, and then someone away from the protagonists fingering them. For all the audience knows the fat alien could flip the table and demand Han pays him back, or the armed red alien is going to try to intimidate him, or the pale skull-faced man is going to sneer at them and praise the Empire, or the toothy dog alien is going to spook Finn and make him bumble over someones drink, and so on and so forth. She's cleanest, smallest, least imposing figure in the cantina. Lt. Danger posted:Yeah, I was about to say this. First paragraph is reasonable but the second confuses me. Similarly with the alien partner - he's just not around long enough to support ideas about subversive submission and whatnot. He's basically an extension of the chair. Also, no way they are equal in that shot. He takes up the most space, she has the distinguishable colors and is on top of him, neither own the center of the frame. They even draw attention to this around their waists; they practically take out a black sharpie and cut the image in half. One frame is enough to read, let alone the thousands in a scene. If one shot is not enough to read two paragraphs then the entirety of human art is worthless.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:19
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euphronius posted:Uh Wasn't it established last night that killing sith lords is not the correct way to bring balance to the force? The prophecy was true and fulfilled by Luke; Vader was just the emotionally vulnerable vessel Luke acted through.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:26
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Neurolimal posted:Wasn't it established last night that killing sith lords is not the correct way to bring balance to the force? Murdering defeated adversaries out of ideological hatred and political expediency is not the correct way to bring balance to the Force. There is a huge and obvious difference between what Mace tried to do in Episode III and what Vader did in Episode VI. quote:The prophecy was true and fulfilled by Luke; Vader was just the emotionally vulnerable vessel Luke acted through. This would imply that Vader/Anakin has no agency of his own. That doesn't make any sense, though. Luke didn't fulfill the prophecy. He inspired his father to fulfill the prophecy. The prophecy, as the Jedi interpreted it, was about a Chosen One who would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. There's no way to interpret the prophecy as giving Luke claim to being the Chosen One without also giving Anakin/Vader an even greater claim to the title.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:40
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Cnut the Great posted:Murdering defeated adversaries out of ideological hatred and political expediency is not the correct way to bring balance to the Force. There is a huge and obvious difference between what Mace tried to do in Episode III and what Vader did in Episode VI. They both murdered or tried to murder in defense of what they held dear (for Samuel Jackson the safety and freedom of the galaxy, for Vader his son). Vader used his compassionate emotions. He let the love flow through him. "Upper body strength not make one great!"
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Jan 22, 2016 21:46
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Vader/Anakin didn't have any agency of their own. As SMG asserts, the force made them do everything.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:47
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So in Episode I why does the fake queen send Natalie Portman to clean R2D2? Is that like the only way they have left to amuse themselves because they're so debauched and isolated? Like the fake queen sends the real one on pretend errands for sick thrills like Marie Antoinette?
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Jan 22, 2016 21:51
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Jack Gladney posted:So in Episode I why does the fake queen send Natalie Portman to clean R2D2? Is that like the only way they have left to amuse themselves because they're so debauched and isolated? Like the fake queen sends the real one on pretend errands for sick thrills like Marie Antoinette? That scene is so weird to me, since, like, most of the rest of the time who's the fake queen and who's the real queen makes sense after you know what's going on and the fake queen gets cues whenever she needs to actually make a decision ("We are brave, Your Highness").
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Jan 22, 2016 21:53
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Jack Gladney posted:So in Episode I why does the fake queen send Natalie Portman to clean R2D2? Is that like the only way they have left to amuse themselves because they're so debauched and isolated? Like the fake queen sends the real one on pretend errands for sick thrills like Marie Antoinette? She has a fetish for mechanical engineering. That's why she doesn't tell anyone about the sandpeople genocide after Anakin gets a robot hand. Truly sick in the head. Empress Theonora posted:That scene is so weird to me, since, like, most of the rest of the time who's the fake queen and who's the real queen makes sense after you know what's going on and the fake queen gets cues whenever she needs to actually make a decision ("We are brave, Your Highness"). The interaction between them was one of the incredibly few things I liked about Padme in episode one. The pause after padme tells the fake that R2-D2 deserves recognition tells so much, it's like you can almost hear her think "loving really. A trash can. Ffffffffffokay". Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 21:54
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Don't bother asking it will be hand waved away.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:57
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Where did the "prophecy" come from? It reminds me a little of the prophecy in the Matrix about "the One". The way it sits out by itself as something, and that important people like Morpheus or various Jedi seem to believe in it. The way the PT treats the whole idea of the prophecy of a chosen one is really interesting. When I first saw APM as a child I felt like it sounded dumb as heck, like "dude I KNOW Star Wars and this is bogus." It's got sort of a false reverence given to it. But the way it gets talked about makes it sound like a joke. The way obi wan shouts at anakin when he's on fire in the lava about "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE AUUUGH" as if anakin betrayed the prophecy instead of yaknow his friend. Maybe one could see it as obi wan using the prophecy as a "punching bag" I stea of directing his feelings straight at anakin which is what he really feels, but the light side Jedi order training forbids that kind of thing as leading to dark side. But what is this stupid prophecy??? The prophecy is dumb and doesn't exist, or at least "prophecies" are stupid because they're dumb superstitious things. Someone made it up, no one cares about it, but it's symbolic of the way the Jedi hold up facades to hide their irrational feelings (love, hate).
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Jan 22, 2016 21:58
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rear end Catchcum posted:Vader/Anakin didn't have any agency of their own. As SMG asserts, the force made them do everything. SMG asserts that Vader is the force
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Jan 22, 2016 22:01
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Neurolimal posted:They both murdered or tried to murder in defense of what they held dear (for Samuel Jackson the safety and freedom of the galaxy, for Vader his son). Vader used his compassionate emotions. He let the love flow through him. Do or do not, but do not skip leg day quote:The interaction between them was one of the incredibly few things I liked about Padme in episode one. The pause after padme tells the fake that R2-D2 deserves recognition tells so much, it's like you can almost hear her think "loving really. A trash can. Ffffffffffokay". "thank you magic trash can"
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Jan 22, 2016 22:02
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RBA Starblade posted:Do or do not, but do not skip leg day Finally, something this thread can agree on.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:03
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Neurolimal posted:She has a fetish for mechanical engineering. That's why she doesn't tell anyone about the sandpeople genocide after Anakin gets a robot hand. Truly sick in the head. I wonder if they have a deal where they switch off if one brings somebody back from the bar or space tinder.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:11
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Obviously Neuroliminal is more than allowed to have his own opinions but I'm as baffled by his opinion of those two TFA aliens standing out as I'm sure he is by my love of Nute Gunray and the prequel robots I did love the Resistance old-timey-microphone looking robot at Maz's though
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Jan 22, 2016 22:11
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Waffles Inc. posted:
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Jan 22, 2016 22:13
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Waffles Inc. posted:I did love the Resistance old-timey-microphone looking robot at Maz's though Looked kind of like a refurbished one of these guys.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:17
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Phylodox posted:Looked kind of like a refurbished one of these guys. oh good point both the medical droid and resistance droid are fly as hell
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Jan 22, 2016 22:20
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Phylodox posted:Looked kind of like a refurbished one of these guys. I got the impression that it was really tiny though?
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Jan 22, 2016 22:21
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Beeez posted:Okay, you put scare quotes around vaporous, are you arguing that it actually all makes perfect sense and any and all schools of philosophy and critical theory are valid and exactly as intellectually honest as they claim to be? i am making a joke uber nerd
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Jan 22, 2016 22:24
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Neurolimal posted:He takes up the most space, she has the distinguishable colors and is on top of him, neither own the center of the frame. They even draw attention to this around their waists; they practically take out a black sharpie and cut the image in half. Okay, fair enough, but at the same time the guy is so big he a) cannot be contained within the frame and b) encapsulates his girlfriend in the crook of his arm. She is active, getting up and walking away to secretly call the villains, with camera following. He is furniture. This is not a partnership of equals. I don't think you can argue that the film is subversive because it presents a consensual BDSM relationship as totally cool and normal, and also subversive in a different way because that same relationship is actually a danger and a threat, summoning the bad guys to kill everyone, all on the basis of yet another subversion of a broken BDSM relationship that isn't actually suggested in the film but is "usually" what would happen if these characters had more than ten seconds of screentime, which they don't. Well, you can, but I can't.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:25
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The Prequels had some downright wretched alien design:  That second thing in particular. It's a head with arms and legs coming out of it. Like a 5 year olds drawing 
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Jan 22, 2016 22:43
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Detective No. 27 posted:SMG asserts that Vader is the force The movies assert this as well.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:45
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Anyway, I don't know much about Lacanian psychology but here's a good article on StarWars.com about the influence of Jungian psychology on the Star Wars series: STAR WARS IN MYTHOLOGY: THE SHADOW quote:Carl Jung is essentially the great-grandfather of Star Wars, as Joseph Campbell included much of Jung’s psychological research in his work. (Note that this is a slightly different conception of the Force than one based on Freudian conceptions of id, ego, and superego.) Say whatever you will about the ideas of thinkers like Jung and Freud, but what you can't deny is that George Lucas made extensive use of them in his work. For that reason alone, it makes sense to analyze the films through those lenses. In contrast, I've never personally seen any evidence that Lucas was ever in any way directly influenced by Lacan. But I know that might not matter to some people. I'm really just not that interested in post-structuralism. A lot of it reads like gibberish to me. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand it.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:48
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