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Cichlidae posted:With a dedicated pedestrian phase, all the signals turn red at the same time, and then the walk signal lights up. Pedestrians (and bicyclists, in this case) can cross any leg they want without having to worry about anything except inattentive motorists turning right on red. You are literally a terrorist Also, I would not know what you mean by dedicated pedestrian phase, we would call that a pedestrian scramble. But we don't actually do them, we just mention it as a joke in passing when we're talking about some intersection where there already is like 60% of the green time that we would need for the traffic volumes.
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Jan 22, 2016 05:59
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Cichlidae posted:With a dedicated pedestrian phase, all the signals turn red at the same time, and then the walk signal lights up. Pedestrians (and bicyclists, in this case) can cross any leg they want without having to worry about anything except inattentive motorists turning right on red. Why wouldn't you just ban right on red? Right hooks loving suck (still going to physical therapy right now for it). I'd actually worry about the right hook even more with a protected bike lane. This gets so close to solving the biggest reasons bikes get hit, but then misses the one that takes out (maybe?) the most. Also, you're assuming cyclists won't run into each other, which is cute.
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Jan 22, 2016 07:22
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nm posted:Why wouldn't you just ban right on red? Right hooks loving suck (still going to physical therapy right now for it). I'd actually worry about the right hook even more with a protected bike lane. This gets so close to solving the biggest reasons bikes get hit, but then misses the one that takes out (maybe?) the most. Cyclists will run into pedestrians, too. The issue with right turn on red is that ~20% of drivers in Hartford obey NTOR signs. A lot of this has to do with their overuse: they're at most intersections in the city, so people rarely notice them. Lax enforcement is also to blame. The cops don't have a lot of time for traffic enforcement, though, seeing as there are almost constant murders and the city's on the hook for tens of millions for their new stadium.
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Jan 22, 2016 13:21
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Cichlidae posted:Cyclists will run into pedestrians, too. I wonder how well those No Right On Red signs that only light up on yellow/red do for compliance?
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Jan 22, 2016 15:53
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Cichlidae posted:Cyclists will run into pedestrians, too. Sounds like a job for red light cameras (and I hate red light cameras).
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Jan 22, 2016 16:35
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Hah, that's quite different. In the Netherlands, right on red is an insane idea that wouldn't cross anyone's mind, except for cyclists. Usually on larger roads there is a dedicated right turn lane, which gets a red when peds have green. On smaller roads there can be concurrent ped phases where the cars might run into peds, but any decent-sized road has either a right turn lane, or dedicated ped phases/scrambles. In some cities they also have bike scrambles.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:43
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fishmech posted:I wonder how well those No Right On Red signs that only light up on yellow/red do for compliance? This is Hartford. The City would shut them off to save electricity and they'd be dismantled for scrap the next morning. nm posted:Sounds like a job for red light cameras (and I hate red light cameras). Same issue. Hartford isn't going to spend a single cent on infrastructure it doesn't need. Gotta give that money to developers. This is even more of an issue now that GE is leaving - municipalities and the DOT are falling over themselves to offer anything those businesses need! No, it's fine, we don't need that money for schools; Pratt and Whitney wants a new parking lot. Entropist posted:Hah, that's quite different. In the Netherlands, right on red is an insane idea that wouldn't cross anyone's mind, except for cyclists. Usually on larger roads there is a dedicated right turn lane, which gets a red when peds have green. On smaller roads there can be concurrent ped phases where the cars might run into peds, but any decent-sized road has either a right turn lane, or dedicated ped phases/scrambles. In some cities they also have bike scrambles. I wish we had the room for proper intersections. I'm trying to cram a 40,000 ADT road into 4 lanes (including turn lanes!) and it's going to take some serious voodoo to make it work. If we had room for right turn lanes, life would be a lot easier.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:00
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Well, it doesn't nearly always work out here either. https://goo.gl/maps/MgAJyNwYPL82 Google managed to beautifully capture a car cutting across a bike path and crossing with a green light here, on what is probably the biggest road into the center of Amsterdam. This crossing is relatively minor, but there are very few dedicated right turn lanes along this whole street really. I'm not sure why, perhaps because there are relatively few peds, or at least until some years ago. There seems to be enough space.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:11
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Cichlidae posted:With a dedicated pedestrian phase, all the signals turn red at the same time, and then the walk signal lights up. Pedestrians (and bicyclists, in this case) can cross any leg they want without having to worry about anything except inattentive motorists turning right on red. Over here I think we call that a Barnes dance? Most of the CBD intersections are getting that treatment. Then again we're lowering the speed limit to 30km/hr (from 50) too and are really trying to discourage cars in the central city.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:13
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Cichlidae posted:This is Hartford. The City would shut them off to save electricity and they'd be dismantled for scrap the next morning. Sure, but I just mean in general. Do people obey them more or less than stationary signs? Especially since when you have the light up signs, they only activate in certain conditions, since most of the time the right on red is permitted.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:19
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Entropist posted:Well, it doesn't nearly always work out here either. Almost every crossing in Rotterdam is like this. Even with dedicated turn lanes you will have a green at the same time as the crosswalk you have to cross to make your turn. https://goo.gl/maps/YYC9KVYKp1m very busy intersection (not in this picture though) with dedicated turn lane, cars going right pedestrians going ahead and bicyclists ahead all have green at the same time. Better check your dead corner really well and check for cyclists coming from the opposite direction (even though it is a one way cycle track) or you will hit someone.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:46
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fishmech posted:Sure, but I just mean in general. Do people obey them more or less than stationary signs? Especially since when you have the light up signs, they only activate in certain conditions, since most of the time the right on red is permitted. I honestly don't know. Only time I've seen those is at railroad crossings, and though I'd bet they're obeyed more often than standard signs, I'd be afraid of instilling a false sense of security. It's a big game of psychology. Just like that video a few posts ago mentioned, marked pedestrian crossings aren't always safer. There's more to it than just increasing driver compliance.
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Jan 23, 2016 01:36
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Cichlidae posted:Cyclists will run into pedestrians, too. Yeah............ but cyclists running into pedestrians usually involves some abrasions, and contusions, instead of death, dismemberment, and lifetime disability.
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Jan 23, 2016 04:47
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osirisisdead posted:Yeah............ but cyclists running into pedestrians usually involves some abrasions, and contusions, instead of death, dismemberment, and lifetime disability. You know, most people hit by cars also don't end up with death/dismemberment/lifetime disability. Most people hit by cars only get abrasions and contusions, it doesn't make getting whacked by a vehicle any more pleasant.
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Jan 23, 2016 04:50
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Sorry, gently caress off and die, but it's basic loving physics. A 200-300 pound object moving at 10-20 mi/hr versus a 2000-5000 pound object moving at 20-40 mi/hr. It's about the kinetic energy imparted into a collision, not some bullshit that you are spouting because it makes you feel better about driving a car aggressively against cyclists, you murderous piece of poo poo.
Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 04:58
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osirisisdead posted:Sorry, gently caress off and die, but it's basic loving physics. A 200-300 pound object moving at 10-20 mi/hr versus a 2000-5000 pound object moving at 20-40 mi/hr. It's about the kinetic energy imparted into a system, not some bullshit that you are spouting because it makes you feel better about driving a car aggressively against cyclists. I agree, a car is going to cause more damage than a cyclist but in this situation - but if we're talking about a right turning car at a busy intersection I think 40mi/hr is very optimistic. That is pretty much instant death and dismemberment speeds.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:04
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osirisisdead posted:Sorry, gently caress off and die, but it's basic loving physics. A 200-300 pound object moving at 10-20 mi/hr versus a 2000-5000 pound object moving at 20-40 mi/hr. It's about the kinetic energy imparted into a collision, not some bullshit that you are spouting because it makes you feel better about driving a car aggressively against cyclists, you murderous piece of poo poo. It's basic statistics that most car - pedestrian collisions don't result in death, permanent disability, or dismemberment. And that getting hit by some jackass on a bike can easily cause one or more of those. Sorry you want to pretend that it's ok for bicyclists to injure people because they get slightly less hurt on average, I guess? Or you're being really weaselly and pretending bike knocks person into other object, other object causes the bulk of the injury, isn't a bike accident caused injury/death? Very guns don't kill people of you.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:07
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I was talking clear physics equations. If you want to talk statistics, cite your sources, and then we'll talk.
Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 05:08
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As someone who rode a couple thousand miles on a road bike last year I'd guess smacking into a pedestrian at full bore would do some serious damage. Not as much as a car obviously but lots of us commute at 20+mph average. That said it's fishmech thus the reply.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:08
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osirisisdead posted:I was talking clear physics equations. If you want to talk statistics, cite your sources, and then we'll talk. You're talking hosed up physics because you're apparently ignorant enough to think all car pedestrian accidents are at 40 mph. They don't work that way, so stop trying to defend reckless vehicle operators on any form of transport.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:14
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"Cars are only marginally more dangerous than bicycles" seems like a claim worthy of cited data.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:15
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fishmech posted:You're talking hosed up physics because you're apparently ignorant enough to think all car pedestrian accidents are at 40 mph. 15 mpg x 200 lbs = 608.321799 m kg / s 10 mph x 5000 lbs = 10 138.6967 m kg / s k, 
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Jan 23, 2016 05:17
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Chemmy posted:"Cars are only marginally more dangerous than bicycles" seems like a claim worthy of cited data. I never made that claim. But they both can kill if driven carelessly in the real world, so excusing those who operate either because they only hurt someone a little is hosed up. Next time, they could straight up kill, if they continue like that. osirisisdead posted:15 mpg x 200 lbs = 608.321799 m kg / s I'm noticing a severe lack of a point. Both of those can severely injure or kill a person, and both can only cause minor injury.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:17
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Your intentional obtuseness doesn't negate my point.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:25
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osirisisdead posted:Your intentional obtuseness doesn't negate my point. Your point has been bogus from the beginning, it negated itself. Bicycle collisions with pedestrians are actually very dangerous events and should never be treated lightly. But you just want to pretend it's all sunshine and flowers because there's lower chances of outright dying.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:31
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osirisisdead posted:Your intentional obtuseness doesn't negate my point. Your point is that cars can cause serious or fatal injuries? Of course they can. However, in the situation that we're talking about - turning right at an intersection and hitting pedestrians - speeds are generally not high enough to cause instant death. They're not fun at all but a cyclist vs pedestrian crash in the same situation would be just as bad if not worse, because then you've got TWO injured parties. The driver of a car is protected by a car, a cyclist is not. Cars are death traps that kill I don't even know how many pedestrians a year, but in the situation we're talking about, intersection design, inattentive drivers and signals phasing are the reasons accidents will happen - not because a car is larger and heavier than a bicycle.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:33
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STFU guys, we can talk about something else or we can close the thread.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:34
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Orders of magnitude less kinetic energy going into collisions are not "lower chances" or "bogus," but please, keep going on, without citing any studies, and digging yourself deeper into your own bullshit!
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Jan 23, 2016 05:34
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Stop arguing with fishmech, jesus.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:52
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Cichlidae posted:Cyclists will run into pedestrians, too. What do you mean? The city gets way more in fines from traffic enforcement than from a lengthy murder investigation. Capitalism dictates it's best to focus on traffic enforcement.
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Jan 23, 2016 10:48
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Carbon dioxide posted:What do you mean? The city gets way more in fines from traffic enforcement than from a lengthy murder investigation. Capitalism dictates it's best to focus on traffic enforcement. I normally don't advocate more police presence, but traffic control is one place where we could really use 'em. Ticket for people on their phones while driving, ticket for turning from the wrong lane, ticket for traveling in the passing lane, ticket for not using the climbing lane when you're going 10 under the limit, ticket for not using turn signals... I know cops are well equipped for speeding tickets, but we really need the "lesser" traffic laws enforced. ESPECIALLY the cellphone thing. I could pray for better driver's education and more frequent/stringent testing, too. Has about the same chance of happening.
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Jan 23, 2016 16:15
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As someone who smacks into pedestrians several times a week because he commutes by bike through the center of Amsterdam, I can confirm that I have not been dismembered or seriously hurt yet, and neither have the dumb tourists who randomly walked into the street right in front of me. At least in the Netherlands, it's pretty clear that traffic engineers don't mind peds crossing with bikes as much as peds crossing with cars. They've removed most pedestrian crossings of bike paths in Amsterdam (because hardly any cyclist would stop for them), and this seems to work out well enough - cyclists can simply steer around the crossing pedestrians, or stop if it's a whole group. Entropist fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 17:27
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Entropist posted:As someone who smacks into pedestrians several times a week because he commutes by bike through the center of Amsterdam, I can confirm that I have not been dismembered or seriously hurt yet, and neither have the dumb tourists who randomly walked into the street right in front of me. This is because your glorious dutch bicycles struggle to exceed 10mph. (Sorry to further this stupid discussion, but low hanging fruit).
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Jan 24, 2016 01:05
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I never thought I had a violent fight of flight response, never actually hit anyone in my life, but the other day a car cut me off at a crosswalk while it was turning right but looking left. Nearly ran over my foot, so I punched the car in anger as my brain interpreted it as a thing trying to attack me. I managed to make the body panel bend in then out and made a good popping My sound. If I had left a dent would I have been in the wrong or would that be some sort of self-defense sort of case? My friend was in a similar situation, lady looking left while slowly creeping forward into a right turn while he was crossing in front. Curious and defiant he just stood there and let her slowly creepy into him until he was laying on her hood like a scene out of a russian insurance scam video. She flipped out and started honking at him and yelling that he'll scratch the paint. He started yelling back that she hit him. People standing around who watched the scene unfold all yelled at her that they saw her slowly hit the guy. Ended up driving off in a huff. Good to publicly shame this lady, but I'd never let a car hit me to prove a point. A car once didn't instantly stop at an unsignalled crosswalk (you have to stop here) and my friend got so mad he threw his shoe at the car, hitting the back window pretty good as it had stopped to turn a short distance after. He then had to get his shoe back from the middle of the road but the next car (who stopped) held up traffic so he could get his shoe and gave him a thumbs up. Ideally instead of having to resort to "pedestrian rage" I do wish cops would spend more time handing out tickets to dangerous drivers like this, rather than when the police say they're going on a "pedestrian safety campaign" which always translates into handing out tickets to pedestrians rather than drivers. Just like when cops want to "get serious about bike safety" it means handing out tickets to cyclists for minor infractions.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:05
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Baronjutter posted:I never thought I had a violent fight of flight response, never actually hit anyone in my life, but the other day a car cut me off at a crosswalk while it was turning right but looking left. Nearly ran over my foot, so I punched the car in anger as my brain interpreted it as a thing trying to attack me. I managed to make the body panel bend in then out and made a good popping My sound. If I had left a dent would I have been in the wrong or would that be some sort of self-defense sort of case? In all honesty I think that kind of thing would go to small claims court at best.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:08
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Baronjutter posted:I never thought I had a violent fight of flight response, never actually hit anyone in my life, but the other day a car cut me off at a crosswalk while it was turning right but looking left. Nearly ran over my foot, so I punched the car in anger as my brain interpreted it as a thing trying to attack me. I managed to make the body panel bend in then out and made a good popping My sound. If I had left a dent would I have been in the wrong or would that be some sort of self-defense sort of case? The defense is necessity (you had to do it to ensure he would notice you and not hit you). Case was eventually dismissed, but it was harder that you'd like. My recommendation, hell, my legal advice is to not do that.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:12
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Baronjutter posted:I never thought I had a violent fight of flight response, never actually hit anyone in my life, but the other day a car cut me off at a crosswalk while it was turning right but looking left. Nearly ran over my foot, so I punched the car in anger as my brain interpreted it as a thing trying to attack me. I managed to make the body panel bend in then out and made a good popping My sound. If I had left a dent would I have been in the wrong or would that be some sort of self-defense sort of case? I don't get why people think slowly creeping forward in your car is actually doing anything for them. Especially when people stopped at red lights do it ( in anticipation?).
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Jan 24, 2016 06:16
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I get to go back to teaching grad school tomorrow! Showing a new generation of engineers how why Synchro is Satan's own tool and how to insert SketchUp models into Vissim. Someone's gotta do it.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:49
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Cichlidae posted:I normally don't advocate more police presence, but traffic control is one place where we could really use 'em. Ticket for people on their phones while driving, ticket for turning from the wrong lane, ticket for traveling in the passing lane, ticket for not using the climbing lane when you're going 10 under the limit, ticket for not using turn signals... I know cops are well equipped for speeding tickets, but we really need the "lesser" traffic laws enforced. ESPECIALLY the cellphone thing. Lobsterpillar posted:I don't get why people think slowly creeping forward in your car is actually doing anything for them. Especially when people stopped at red lights do it ( in anticipation?).
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Jan 24, 2016 19:54
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Cichlidae posted:Showing a new generation of engineers how why Synchro is Satan's own tool From a usability standpoint or a technical standpoint?
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Jan 24, 2016 20:28
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