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Grand Theft Autobot posted:"I 
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Jan 22, 2016 20:35
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taxation; I 
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property rites,
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Jan 22, 2016 20:41
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Captain_Maclaine posted:And, as I've posted direct evidence of before, slave owners at that very time were complaining that the free states were preventing their equal access to the territories, where they could put their "property" to use in new, profitable ways. The idea that slavery was already dying in the US during the late ante-bellum period is a hot sack of ahistorical garbage. Well a lot of people buy it because it was important to both right and left wing people both then and now to think that free labour was more effective or part of an outmoded form of production.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:01
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You know I've seen Jrod talk a lot about health care and chattel slavery and such, but what are his thoughts about how the U.S. is behind at least a dozen countries (most of which, just like when it comes to UHC, are far more socialist/un-free than the U.S.) when it comes to our internet speeds? I just ask that cause I was reading this article about Republicans wanting to classify lower speeds as broadband, which would presumably make people on said slower speeds feel much better. Mr Interweb fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 21:39
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Just going to go ahead and guess, "Something something crony capitalism <snip 10000 more words about how great the tech sector is, no mention of intellectual property>"
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Jan 22, 2016 21:41
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Mr Interweb posted:You know I've seen Jrod talk a lot about health care and chattel slavery and such, but what are his thoughts about how the U.S. is behind at least a dozen countries when it comes to our internet speeds? Not free market enough.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:41
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Jizz Festival posted:You're not a leftist, jrod. Your ideology does not come from the left. Yeah, the folks at mises found some of the more kooky abolitionists and anarchists to claim as intellectual forebears, but the lack of interest (or knowledge) in the world as it actually exists brings the true origins to light. Like this poster says, you are not a leftist Jrod. Don't be roping leftist anarchists into this poo poo, the tradition, though vague and evolving as a definition, very clearly delineates its worldview from libertarianism. Though the goals of reducing hierarchy, identity politics, and focusing on local material conditions are primary points of concern, their/our view is still a communal world view: People care and look out for each other and work to improve their community for the sake of each and the sake of all. The anarchist left also does not instantly do away with anything federal. If a federal policy enabled local doctors to more ably attend to their patients by removing the cost barrier and give patients many options in local and surrounding communities giving equal access to health services, well I'd think anarchists would be down right pleased with such an arrangement. The thing about anarchism is that there might be general ideological beliefs about how society should interact or what the end goal looks like, but theory itself evolves is its practice. Whether its Bookchin, Kropotkin or Chomsky theory and practice are one thing in this tradition and near all of it comes out of, spiritually (if you will), anarcho-communism though splits from it. There is nothing like your scarcity and property rights dogmatism here. The end point optics might look like your Libertopia, but its not. Anarchists, at least good ones, realize their ideal of municipalism may never fully come to fruition and that's OK, working towards it is enough. Go away. BaurusJA fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 23:39
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Can I please be involved in the next "Goons Talk About Libertarianism?" I'll try to keep up with the thread, but PM me about it if you don't see me postin'. I've always wanted to talk with SedanChair and Caros.
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Jan 23, 2016 02:35
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Can I please be involved in the next "Goons Talk About Libertarianism?" I'll try to keep up with the thread, but PM me about it if you don't see me postin'. I'll keep you mind if I ever do another one!
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Jan 23, 2016 02:44
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Can I please be involved in the next "Goons Talk About Libertarianism?" I'll try to keep up with the thread, but PM me about it if you don't see me postin'. You could always just ask to talk to them.
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Jan 23, 2016 02:45
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paragon1 posted:I'll keep you mind if I ever do another one! Which reminds me, we really should do another "Goon Talk" at some point. I finally got to listen to the first one that we did a few months back and you really knocked it out of the park in terms of being a moderator and keeping things relatively on track.
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Jan 23, 2016 03:05
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Caros posted:Which reminds me, we really should do another "Goon Talk" at some point. I finally got to listen to the first one that we did a few months back and you really knocked it out of the park in terms of being a moderator and keeping things relatively on track. well we did the bitcoin one, and then if i ever get paragon the audio, me him and rzapublican did one on comics! and that was fun. i like comics.
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Jan 23, 2016 03:07
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Literally The Worst posted:well we did the bitcoin one, and then if i ever get paragon the audio, me him and rzapublican did one on comics! and that was fun. i like comics. I wanna talk about comics.  I have opinions about things like who's the best Robin that I think we floated around just having a general D&D livechat podcast in the other thread, that sounded like a great idea. It's Tim Drake, btw
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Jan 23, 2016 03:11
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:8) Heat waves will be solved by air conditioning. So many mises.org articles read like something a guy who'd never left his parents' basement would write. "What do you mean it's too hot to grow corn in Nebraska, why don't you just ask mom to turn down the thermostat, god you liberals are so helpless"
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Jan 23, 2016 03:11
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Who What Now posted:I wanna talk about comics. well duh
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Jan 23, 2016 03:14
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Can I please be involved in the next "Goons Talk About Libertarianism?" I'll try to keep up with the thread, but PM me about it if you don't see me postin'. I haven't been in on any of them. I've been wanting to get a good mic and this is as good an excuse as any...
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Jan 23, 2016 08:01
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With all this crap the jrode just floated about the American Civil War and Libertarians being leftists, I'd almost say we have enough for another episode. Today on Episode 3 of GoonTalk: 1) Libertarians and the Confederacy 2) Which side of the aisle do Libertarians prefer to sit on (and what color are their drapes; fashion tips and business savvy from Martha Stewart) 3) Who is the best Robin?
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Jan 23, 2016 09:59
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4) Global Warming: pros and cons
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Jan 23, 2016 15:18
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:4) Global Warming: pros and cons 5) Modern Slavery vs. Income Tax
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Jan 23, 2016 16:14
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YF19pilot posted:With all this crap the jrode just floated about the American Civil War and Libertarians being leftists, I'd almost say we have enough for another episode. number three is tim drake because he's the only one who just decided to be robin independent of any tragedy in his life because he sussed out that batman needs a sidekick to help him stay grounded and not just be a weirdo in a gimp suit and then was a good enough detective to figure out batman's secret identity so now there's only two things to talk about
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Jan 23, 2016 16:49
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Captain_Maclaine posted:5) Modern Slavery vs. Income Tax This is like saying "Water vs. H2O," bro.
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Jan 23, 2016 16:50
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:This is like saying "Water vs. H2O," bro. Recall that in Jrod-speak, modern slavery is actually just low level labor disputes (with the implication that it's just those collectivist unions making trouble for plucky little management), whereas income tax is doubleplusbad actual slavery. Important distinction, which you'll notice I got through this time without reference to loss of bowel control!
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Jan 23, 2016 17:00
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A dedicated investigation into why an ideology that calls itself "libertarian" always seems to end up defending outright tyranny and promoting policies that would reduce the degree of freedom people actually experience would probably be pretty fruitful as a discussion topic.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:02
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GunnerJ posted:A dedicated investigation into why an ideology that calls itself "libertarian" always seems to end up defending outright tyranny and promoting policies that would reduce the degree of freedom people actually experience would probably be pretty fruitful as a discussion topic. Wasn't it hijacked by hard right assholes in the '50s or so? I swear there's even a quote from one of their heroes that makes this explicit. More detail would be interesting, if there's more detail than that, anyway.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:16
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Caros posted:Which reminds me, we really should do another "Goon Talk" at some point. I finally got to listen to the first one that we did a few months back and you really knocked it out of the park in terms of being a moderator and keeping things relatively on track. gently caress it, I'm in. And.... awwwh. JRode ran off again. I swear I checked the thread on the 16th and then of course he shows up and is driven off before I remembered this thread in the midst of trying to stay abreast of election-madness. Buggery-gently caress.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:27
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spoon0042 posted:Wasn't it hijacked by hard right assholes in the '50s or so? I swear there's even a quote from one of their heroes that makes this explicit. More detail would be interesting, if there's more detail than that, anyway. I hadn't actually considered historical influence on the development of the ideology and its proponents, oddly. I was more thinking about how this "contradiction" is actually the working out of the fundamental principles of the ideology. That said, I'm not sure what the "good" libertarianism was prior to the 1950s. I mean, you have people like Hayek warning of a "road to serfdom" in the early 40s turning around and supporting Pinochet later on. That's either the corruption of a "good thing" or the working out of those contradictions.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:29
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GunnerJ posted:I hadn't actually considered historical influence on the development of the ideology and its proponents, oddly. I was more thinking about how this "contradiction" is actually the working out of the fundamental principles of the ideology. Left anarchism and anarchosyndicalism. Chomsky is one such example, if you Google chomsky and libertarianism you can hear him ranting about it.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:33
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Also I'd be down to goon radio on this ridiculous topic.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:34
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Disinterested posted:Left anarchism and anarchosyndicalism. Chomsky is one such example, if you Google chomsky and libertarianism you can hear him ranting about it. I probably should have said 'the good "libertarianism"' because I more meant something resembling pro-capitalist libertarianism that's not poo poo. Otherwise yeah this is likely. But I kinda feel like it takes a bit more than some co-opting in the 1950s to turn a basically socialist ideology into whatever it is now. Incidentally, Chompers is who I had in mind when talking about "defending outright tyranny" because he had a pretty baller line about this: quote:Libertarianism has a special meaning predominantly in the United States. In the United States, it means dedication to extreme forms of tyranny. They don’t call it that, but it’s basically corporate tyranny, meaning tyranny by unaccountable private concentrations of power, the worst kind of tyranny you can imagine.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:37
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TLM3101 posted:gently caress it, I'm in. And.... awwwh. JRode ran off again. I swear I checked the thread on the 16th and then of course he shows up and is driven off before I remembered this thread in the midst of trying to stay abreast of election-madness. Ehhn, Jrod's parole officer keeping track of his internet activity deserves a break here and there.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:45
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spoon0042 posted:Wasn't it hijacked by hard right assholes in the '50s or so? I swear there's even a quote from one of their heroes that makes this explicit. More detail would be interesting, if there's more detail than that, anyway. GunnerJ posted:I hadn't actually considered historical influence on the development of the ideology and its proponents, oddly. I was more thinking about how this "contradiction" is actually the working out of the fundamental principles of the ideology. We've got some options here. I've read a few books on this topic, though I am by no means an expert. I will say that I have an adequate understanding of the relevant history to explain this stuff in good enough detail for a comedy forum or a Goon Talk. So, I could do up a megapost about this topic, drawing from the books I mentioned upthread, or I could prepare some material for our Goon Chat and do it Dollop style. Whichever one would be most palatable to the thread, I can find some time to get it done.
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Jan 23, 2016 19:00
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GunnerJ posted:I probably should have said 'the good "libertarianism"' because I more meant something resembling pro-capitalist libertarianism that's not poo poo. Otherwise yeah this is likely. But I kinda feel like it takes a bit more than some co-opting in the 1950s to turn a basically socialist ideology into whatever it is now. I was talking more about the hijacking of the word libertarian than the ideology proper.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:25
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:We've got some options here. I've read a few books on this topic, though I am by no means an expert. I will say that I have an adequate understanding of the relevant history to explain this stuff in good enough detail for a comedy forum or a Goon Talk. This would be good. I would enjoy reading it. I'm not so up on the complete history of the libertarian tradition and how the trajectory of left anarchism interacts with it, but a good starting would be how Kropotkin's theories about mutual aid (as we have seen with Jrods endless obsession the mutual aid societies as being private entities based on sharing only money which is not what Kropotkin means by mutual aid) got hijacked into libertarian capitalism and the notion of self-sufficiency got twisted into an individual self-sufficiency not collective and communal self-sufficiency. Disinterested posted:I was talking more about the hijacking of the word libertarian than the ideology proper. Dumb Libertarians posted:Yet, when the Czar's government fell in the February Revolution of 1917, and the way was cleared for him to return home, he seized the opportunity. He was 74 years old when he came back to a Russia he hadn't seen since he was in his mid-30s. Shortly after he arrived, the October Revolution installed the Bolsheviks in power — an event Kropotkin publicly deplored. Paul Avrich reports that he told one friend, "This buries the revolution," and commented further that the Bolsheviks were demonstrating "how the revolution was not to be made — that is, by authoritarian rather than libertarian methods." EDIT: I found the Avrich article on Britannica: the second part of the quote (everything after were demonstrating) is Avarich's paraphrasing the friends account of talking with Kropotkin. Regarding to how the Mises Institute guy quotes Avrich is weird. Technically, the sentence means Paul Avrich reported the friend's account of his conversation with Kropotkin and that Avrich then commentated further, but the way it is structured can easily be taken that Kroptokin himself said both things. As far as I can tell, Kropotkin never said that last part. http://www.britannica.com/biography/Peter-Alekseyevich-Kropotkin Edit2: Avrich in a book Sasha and Emma: The Anarchist Odyssey of Alexander Berkman and Emma Goldman, Avrich describes the surrounding context to the 'this buries the revolution' quote differently than he does in the Britannica article. The world libertarian does not appear.  It seems libertarian is applied backwards to apply to anarchism. BaurusJA fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 22:27
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JRod, if you're still reading this, when DnD posters of varying stripes and opinions who normally antagonize each other on the regular unite to collectively point out why your sociopathic ideology is garbage, it's time to maybe take a step back and rethink things. And then  .Don't come back.
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Jan 23, 2016 22:46
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BaurusJA posted:This would be good. I would enjoy reading it. I'm not so up on the complete history of the libertarian tradition and how the trajectory of left anarchism interacts with it, but a good starting would be how Kropotkin's theories about mutual aid (as we have seen with Jrods endless obsession the mutual aid societies as being private entities based on sharing only money which is not what Kropotkin means by mutual aid) got hijacked into libertarian capitalism and the notion of self-sufficiency got twisted into an individual self-sufficiency not collective and communal self-sufficiency. I was thinking mostly of tracing Libertarianism in America from roughly 1912 to 1980. The older stuff is not really my forte. The closest thing to a treatise on the intellectual underpinnings of the various flavors of anarchism is Thorstein Veblen and the American Way of Life by Louis Patsouras. My biggest problem with jrod and his ilk is that they believe (sincerely or not) that they are part of a grand ideological tradition, when in fact they have been duped into carrying water for a combination of white supremacists and business elites.
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Jan 23, 2016 23:19
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New guy in the other thread who is just super mad at us for mocking Jrode
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Jan 24, 2016 02:15
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StandardVC10 posted:I discussed a similar topic (hurricanes and insurance) with some libertarians on another website. Their take was that instead of having the government as an insurer of last resort, nobody should live in hurricane prone areas at all. And I mean, I find it kind of hard to argue with the idea of depopulating Florida, but I took a completely different path to get there. I'm a libertarian. I don't see anything wrong with insurance or ports. Where's your straw man now?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:16
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Promontorium posted:I'm a libertarian. I don't see anything wrong with insurance or ports. Where's your straw man now? You're not a libertarian.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:17
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SedanChair posted:You're not a libertarian. He's the guy I just mentioned in the other thread
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Jan 24, 2016 02:17
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Promontorium posted:I'm a libertarian. I don't see anything wrong with insurance or ports. Where's your straw man now? Do you see anything wrong with insurance refusing to cover their customers?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:19
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